Blue Collar Shop

[Bull]

My property includes an old barn that my grandfather built in the 50's using recycled lumber from a local mill that was torn down. A few years ago, a friend and I jacked up the structure to replace all of the sills, straighten a few walls, and add new supports where necessary.

I currently park three vehicles in the barn, and use one bay for projects, but it is not very nice out there. No electricity, freezing in the winter, and damp after rain.

The siding consists of the old tongue and groove boards, very heavily weathered from decades of exposure without being properly maintained. I would like to make the structure weathertight, so that I can then get a sub-panel out there for lights, outlets, and heat, and insualte everything.

My plan is to use vinyl siding, applied over the existing boards. I assume it would make sense to put down a layer of Tyvek or similar material first, to help keep out the elements?

Also, I have heard of some type of foam backer boards that can be used to add R value and also to help compensate for the fact that the current siding is not perfectly flat and level and even in all spots. Does anyone know specifically what this foam backer board might be called, or what it looks like?

Thanks for your time and help.

Dave

 

[mleichtle]

I've seen siders use "fan fold" foam too smooth out imperfections. Its only 1/4" thick so the R factor is pretty much null. For an out building use roofing felt instead of tyvek, heck of lot cheaper. What about the ribbed steel? Keeps the barn look. I've never seen a barn, atleast what I call a barn, with vinyl siding.

 

[DynoDave]

Dave,

I just had the upper story of my house done in vinyl a few years back. It was clad in T-111, which had lived out it's useful life. It was starting to seperate a little, and the bottom edge was very wavy.

First the T111 was fastened flat with screws. They then covered the house in a foam board that had a tongue & groove edge. The board (no particular brand name...you lumber store will know what you are asking for) offers some R value, while helping smooth out the wall. And the tongue & groove feature eliminates drafts (and the need for Tyvek). I've been very happy with the results.

It sounds like a great project, and valuable piece of family history. Post some pics of your project if you get a chance.

Dave

 

[imported_banzaitoyota]

Fanfold has an R Value of 1, the 1" thick formular board has an R Value of 5. If you can find a spray foam contractor in your area you can have the interior sprayed that way

 

[Bull]

Thanks for the replies so far, I really appreciate them. I'm not very knowledgeable about the building process, so I rely on the advice of others to point me in the right direction.

I had thought that vinyl might be better than traditional metal barn siding since vinyl will essentially last forever, whereas metal might rust. Perhaps I should rethink this, or at least examine what the cost difference is between those materials.

I had also kind of assumed that tar paper was a far inferior product to something like Tyvek. I really want to make sure that no water gets into the structure, especially since the siding is in such poor shape right now, and also that it is weathertight enough to be heated fairly economically. Can tar paper really do a good job? I know it would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

How are those foam panels secured, with large headed nails or screws?

I have a lot of pics that I took of the barn before, during, and after we saved it a few years ago. It was really in sad shape, and it was only a matter of time before it fell. For now, I only have two pics hosted in my online album that I can share right away.

Here is a before shot:

Here is an after:

It's nothing fancy, and never will be, but it has a family connection and if I can get it updated a bit more, it should serve me well as a workshop.

Thanks again for helping me to get started with this.

Dave

 

[number3]

I like the weathered look. I wouldn't change a thing on the outside.

However...

The foam board is call "blue board". I used on my house before we installed the siding. The blue board was nailed on with a roofing nail (the one with a large flat head) It is made by DOW. You then nail the siding loosely over the blue board.

 

[Bull]

Thanks for te details on the foam board, that is very helpful.

I also like the weathered look, but the siding is so weathered that it no longer does it's job. In heavy rain, the inside of the boards become wet, I think from a combination of water getting in between the joints, but also I think some of the boards have become porous. So, before I can add insulation or wiring in the walls, I have to get the siding issue addressed.

 

[wrigh003]

Seems to me that if you want it to be as weather-tight as a house, you'll have to build it like a house. In other words, probably remove the siding that's on there, go back with OSB or plywood sheathing, then tyvek/housewrap or whatever, then siding again. If you want it to look like an old barn just with modern insulation under there, you could probably reuse a lot the siding after you get that other part done (this would be what I would want to do, both from an aesthetic as well as a cost perspective). The only difference is that there will be an absolutely weathertight surface under it, so you can go on the inside with wiring, insulation, etc without worrying about it getting wet. You'll probably have to put up some framing and repair/replace some boards, but you should be able to salvage a good part of the exterior siding and all or nearly all of the original interior structure. If it was me, I'd see about putting in some more windows (well insulated 3'x3' single hung are ~$100 a go at Lowe's or Depot) while I was at it.

Sounds like a big project, but look on the bright side- at least you already have the rough structure there (roof/framing) and you know that it's steady now that you've invested the time/effort to keep it from falling down. Couple grand in materials and a few more weekends of work on it, and you'll go from "passable workshop/ storage barn" to "nice place to work and hang out." I think it's worth it.

 

[Gregdoo]

Fine Homebuilding magazine did a nice article about house wraps this past year. Your library should have it. There was a side piece about tar paper and that in some situations just as good as an expensive wrap. I'd look into it and possibly save some cost and probably have easier installation.

 

[rodwerkz]

that barn f'n rules...

my hotrods and various ancient machines would look perfect in there ..

i love the weathered look but i can understand the desire to keep more of the elements out...

i would definitely try to preserve the charm if possible using ribbed steel (as suggested above) or perhaps even some caulk and paint on the existing wooden tongue and groove and fiberglass insulation from the inside.

 

[RAYJAY]

I would use barn metal instead of the vinyl and 1 inch of foam board and screw the barn metal right into the old wood , lot faster to install and the barn metal will out last you.


lmao you do look like bull from the TV show "Night Court"

 

[Nimrod]

No offense meant...but I prefer the before shot, its art. The after shot looks like a plain old garage with a wheathered roof.

History like that can't be recreated...but it can be destroyed.

If the space is available, and you want something more modern and comfortable, build another shop building on the property and use the old barn for storage.

 

[Bull]

You've given me some more good suggestions and info, thanks again.

Nimrod, no offense taken.

I am a history teacher, so I do have an appreciation for the past and for all things old. I also have the connection to this structure that comes from my grandfather having built it. If my friend and I had not worked to save it a few years ago, I am sure it would be a pile of debris by now.

Practically, I can't justify keeping the barn in its current, semi-usable state. To build a structure of similar size here would easily cost me $40k, which I do not have. I would also have to pay a hefty increase in property tax. For a fraction of that cost, I can update this barn to suit my needs, and then build a much smaller, more modest garage elsewhere on the property to park our 2 daily driven cars in.

Even modified, I will still be able to say that my grandfather built the barn with his own two hands, and that I kept it from falling down, and that is pretty important to me.

 

[Krodad]

I've refabbed a few old buildings myself, and it is sometimes a shame to cover up the weathered history, but then again, if you don't, the whole thing will eventually go to pot, so you gotta do it. If the barn could talk, it would thank you for the attention and facelift.
That barn, in my opinion, is screaming for hardi-panels. You can buy the 4x8 hardi panels with vertical ribs (grooves, I guess) that look pretty much like t111, but hardi panels hold paint so much better and they don't rot. Put some 1"-2", (whichever your budget allows)Extruded Polystyrene (blue or pink foam) then install the siding over that. Unless you are going to actually condition the space, you'll do great with this.
If you really want to give it back it's old fashioned look, you could always add vertical batten boards - I think that's the right term.

 

[Krodad]

I've refabbed a few old buildings myself, and it is sometimes a shame to cover up the weathered history, but then again, if you don't, the whole thing will eventually go to pot, so you gotta do it. If the barn could talk, it would thank you for the attention and facelift.
That barn, in my opinion, is screaming for hardi-panels. You can buy the 4x8 hardi panels with vertical ribs (grooves, I guess) that look pretty much like t111, but hardi panels hold paint so much better and they don't rot. Put some 1"-2", (whichever your budget allows)Extruded Polystyrene (blue or pink foam) then install the siding over that. Unless you are going to actually condition the space, you'll do great with this.
If you really want to give it back it's old fashioned look, you could always add vertical batten boards - I think that's the right term.

http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/prodhome/hardipanel.php
Here's what I'm talking about. It's the "sierra 8" product.

 

[Bull]

I'll Google the hardi-panels to see what I come up with, and see how much they are compared to metal siding. I like the fact that they are in large sheets, since it'll make the siding job quicker.

What do you mean by "actually condition the space"?

 

[Krodad]

I'll Google the hardi-panels to see what I come up with, and see how much they are compared to metal siding. I like the fact that they are in large sheets, since it'll make the siding job quicker.

What do you mean by "actually condition the space"?

I just meant that if you are going to heat/cool continuosly, that's when you might want to add a tyvek wrap to deal with air infiltration. Intermittent heat won't cause you any problems, but you would benefit from an efficiency standpoint if you went the extra step. Of course, a little "air exchange", regardless of how it happens, is not a bad thing if you work with solvents in there, or have exhaust from time to time. Adding the blue board and taping the joints is going to go a long way in sealing the walls up. You are always going to have a comfort issue with the floor unless you really go all-out.

 

[Krodad]

By the way, I love the roof. Is it copper?
If it's not leaking, I'd leave it. Looks great, and pretty darn straight.

 

[Bull]

The roof isn't copper...I am not sure which metal it is, actually, but I know it isn't copper. The color is from rust. My grandfather was told when he bought the material that it was guaranteed for life against rust...decades later when it began to rust, the supplier would not replace the materials for him. A funny story that my mom has told me.

It doesn't leak, just needs to be re-nailed in a few spots.

 

[wrigh003]

The roof isn't copper...I am not sure which metal it is, actually, but I know it isn't copper. The color is from rust. My grandfather was told when he bought the material that it was guaranteed for life against rust...decades later when it began to rust, the supplier would not replace the materials for him. A funny story that my mom has told me.

It doesn't leak, just needs to be re-nailed in a few spots.

Just looks like galvanized corrugated steel roofing to me- my parents have a big horse barn that's probably about the same age as yours, and they've had to spend some money on upkeep/ repairs the last couple of years, including replacing a panel of that here and there. That stuff lasts a LONG TIME, but I can't think of any metal that's not going to rust/deteriorate at some point if left outside for 40 years. Gold, platinum, and silver don't rust, but they don't exactly make a good barn roof either.

 

[PAToyota]

Yep, looks like typical galvanized steel roofing where time and weather has gotten through the galvanizing. One option would be to use something like Gempler's Rust converter - http://www.gemplers.com/a/pages/mremovefaq.asp?UID=200608301116515461965001 - and then paint it.

 

[rodwerkz]

that siera 8 (or your average T11) is a good alternative too. whatever you do please don't slap vinyl siding on it..

 

[Bull]

T111 has to be painted every few years correct? If so, that is a pretty big consideration, since the structure is quite high and requires the use of scaffolding to work comfortably up towards the top.

I know vinyl was never on old barns before, but I do have one book on barn restoration that mentions it as a modern siding option.

I'd like the begin the siding job within the next couple of weeks, and your comments, suggestions, and criticisms are helping me to think about what to do. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to Home Depot this weekend and see if they have metal siding for barns, or the T111 or other products you've mentioned. I also have a farmer's supply store just a mile or so down my street, so they might have stuff as well.

 

[DynoDave]

My old T111 was stained, and as far as I know, was never re-stained from when it was hung. Lasted 20+ years that way. Was looking pretty weathered toward the end, but then, that might be a good look here over time....

 

[milly]

Hey Bull, thought I recognized you from PY. Great barn/garage you've got there. I think your grandfather would be proud of your plans to refinish it. Keep us posted on how it turns out.

 

[Bull]

Hey Milly, thanks for the comments. I think there are one or two other PY guys on here as well, right?

When installing tar paper, can I use a staple gun, or do I need to use those nails with the large heads and washers underneath?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Thinking out of the box here. The siding job will come out better looking and easirer if the siding were applied over a smooth flat surface. You also would not have the extra thickness to deal with at the doors, windows, edges and corners. Remove the existing siding one section at a time and reskin with large sheets of OSB. Then install the selected siding, tyvek, etc. When done with one side or end, then move on. SELL THE REMOVED BARN BOARD. There are flooring places and others who pay reasonable prices for the wood, they plane it down and sell it for flooring, interior paneling, etc. You get a much stronger structure with the OSB directly attached to the barn structure, and its much tighter and holds in heat better too.

Charles

 

[SCOOTER]

No offense meant...but I prefer the before shot, its art. The after shot looks like a plain old garage with a wheathered roof.

History like that can't be recreated...but it can be destroyed.

If the space is available, and you want something more modern and comfortable, build another shop building on the property and use the old barn for storage.

Nimrod "IF" we all could have shops like yours ...it would put the "NEW" shop builders outta business.......Your place has to be the coolest....



OH ya and I would say that the vinyl...would ruin that barn ..t111 or something other than vinyl

 

[Bull]

Thinking out of the box here. The siding job will come out better looking and easirer if the siding were applied over a smooth flat surface. You also would not have the extra thickness to deal with at the doors, windows, edges and corners. Remove the existing siding one section at a time and reskin with large sheets of OSB. Then install the selected siding, tyvek, etc. When done with one side or end, then move on. SELL THE REMOVED BARN BOARD. There are flooring places and others who pay reasonable prices for the wood, they plane it down and sell it for flooring, interior paneling, etc. You get a much stronger structure with the OSB directly attached to the barn structure, and its much tighter and holds in heat better too.
Charles

Man, just when I think I know what I am going to do, I reconsider based on further advice!

Given the age of the barn, might there be a possibility that the studs are not all perfectly level themselves? So, I might remove the old siding only to find that the OSB does not lay perfectly level and flat because the studs are not perfect? If that happened, wouldn't I be spending a lot of extra time and money without realizing any great benefit?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Man, just when I think I know what I am going to do, I reconsider based on further advice!

Given the age of the barn, might there be a possibility that the studs are not all perfectly level themselves? So, I might remove the old siding only to find that the OSB does not lay perfectly level and flat because the studs are not perfect? If that happened, wouldn't I be spending a lot of extra time and money without realizing any great benefit?

That certainly an unknown. Possibly try one end of the building and see how it goes.

Charles

 

[PAToyota]

Charles has a definite point. Vinyl siding installed over a non-flat surface looks even worse than vinyl normally does, IMHO. Plus, if it is too out of plane you have problems with wind "disconnecting" the pieces...

 

[Bull]

Ok, well as of right now, I am leaning away from vinyl and towards T-111.

I am also considering removing the old barn boards and attaching exterior grade plywood directly to the studs, then applying tar-paper, then the T-111.

What size plywood should I purchase? Would I apply the sheets vertically or horizontally?

When applying the T-111, how do I make the joints weathertight?

Oh, and how deep and wide of a trench do I need to dig to run power from my basement to the barn?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

What size plywood should I purchase? Would I apply the sheets vertically or horizontally?

Depends on stud spacing and wall height. Probably best to put it vertically, but I'm no expert, that is usually how its installed.

When applying the T-111, how do I make the joints weathertight?

I seem to recall that they have a overlap cut in them, on one side the panel overlaps the adjoining panel, on the other side, the adjoining panel overlaps it.

Oh, and how deep and wide of a trench do I need to dig to run power from my basement to the barn?

NEC will tell you 24 inches. Under some circumstances it can be less, but you cannot go wrong with 24 inches. Width is whatever you need, most small trenchers are 4 inches wide and that works well. How many amps are you going to run? If the soil is rocky, you may need to take measures to insure that the wire is protected from rocks bearing on it, they will in time rub thru and allow moisture thru, corrosion, etc. If you need to run a water line, your local code/inspection office can tell you how deep the frost line is in your area, in some places up north, its real deep, Keene, NH for example, is 8 ft for water lines. Here in middle GA you can run a line an inch deep and it probably would never freeze.

Charles

Charles

 

[DynoDave]

Well, if you are going to remove the old siding, and put up a layer of plywood, why not put the old siding back up over that? Have your weather tight buidling, and the old/original look? Just a thought...

I've never seen T111 put up OVER plywood, as it IS plywood. It's usually attached right to the studs, in my experience. That's it's big selling point..it is sheathing and siding in 1 step.

 

[Bull]

Well, if you are going to remove the old siding, and put up a layer of plywood, why not put the old siding back up over that? Have your weather tight buidling, and the old/original look? Just a thought...

I've never seen T111 put up OVER plywood, as it IS plywood. It's usually attached right to the studs, in my experience. That's it's big selling point..it is sheathing and siding in 1 step.

Ok, that's the kind of thing I need to know, Dave! I didn't realize the T-111 did double-duty as structural sheathing and exterior siding together.

Interesting suggestion about reapplying the old boards over new plywood...I'll have to think about that.

 

[wheelz]

I would put the blue or pink foam over the old barn boards then put the Hardi panels over that. Have you ever tried to remove a 40+ year old hard wood board with 40+ year old rusty nails? I think you could have the whole barn done before you could remove the old barn boards from one end. I've helped dad tear down several old building and dad who grew up with nothing has to save everything and I hate trying to pull old nails out to clean up the old lumber. Jason

 

[rodwerkz]

I would put the blue or pink foam over the old barn boards then put the Hardi panels over that...

I agree.. just studd of the existing board about an inch, put a layer of foam and them t111 over that.

 

[rodwerkz]

whoa - putting the original siding back over the plywood is an interesting suggestion too.. dunno if i'd want to disturb the old structure that much though.. might be hard to salvage the siding too..

 

[lentiniphoto]

hate to say it but you ruined a damn fine barn

 

[Bull]

hate to say it but you ruined a damn fine barn

lol, yes yes, of course I did. I ruined a damn fine barn that was about to collapse because of rotten sills and rotten posts and rotten studs by replacing all of that. Yep, ruined it all!