Between 485 & 705 SQ/FT Bob Heine's Auto Emporium

[zmotorsports]

Strange, I had to enlist my wife's help on the camaro this past weekend. I rarely ask for help and generally do things on my own. I do have to say she did really well holding the delete plates while i install the bolts and test fit the plates before applying the silicone to the surface. I doubt she wants to do it, but she was willing to help.

I'm like you where I hate to ask for help. I was lucky for many, many years as our son was a HUGE help to me. I didn't realize just how much until he bought his own place and moved out but I have had to find ways of doing certain things by myself and for those things that I cannot I too have had to ask the wife for another hand a few times. She's a trooper and doesn't mind one bit but I still hate asking.

 

[zmotorsports]

I'm following Mike (@zmotorsports) as he corrects the paint on his Camaro. The paint job looks real shiny but in this photo it looks like his Camaro's paint has the same level of orange peel as my 2011 Cadillac.


I am really tempted to give it a thorough wash, clay bar and then cut the clear with a hard block starting with 1,000 and stepping up through 5000 before beginning the buffing process. I wouldn't consider cutting the clear for the orange peel if there weren't a couple of flaws in the paint. There's one on the roof and a similar one on the trunk.

My biggest concern is sanding through the clear. Like Mike's Crystal Red Camaro, the paint on my Thunder Gray Cadillac is difficult to repair and real hard to blend. Did I mention expensive?

Funny you mentioned the orange peel Bob. I went into a fair amount of detail about this when I was recording the video on Saturday and mentioned that I am less prone to cut much clear from a factory paint job due to not knowing exactly where that line not to cross is. I am a hoser when I paint and lay down quite heavy coats so when I cut & buff one of my paint jobs I am more confident that I won't go through and get a bit more aggressive to remove any and all orange peel to get that mirror finish. On factory jobs I am less willing to risk sanding through as they don't use any more material than necessary.

If you remember several years ago when I repainted the left rear quarter panel on my Jeep after a little touch-up I commented about trying to match the OEM finish as far as orange peel and when color sanding I only lightly hit it as to not remove all of the orange peel or it would stand out next to the factory finish on the panel adjacent to it. Sometimes trying to make a panel perfect actually will detract from the overall job because it may not match the surrounding panels any longer.

I know with just as aggressive as I was with the buffer on our Camaro that I removed a bit of clear but didn't want to take any fine sandpaper to it if at all possible. Luckily I was able to remove all of the scratches without having to break out any sandpaper.

If I recall, GM was notorious about thin clear coat. As much as I’ve always wanted to remove the orange peel on my truck, I just can’t do it. Call me a chicken, but I don’t want to mess up the paint anymore! Lol

I wouldn't call you a chicken, just prudent. It's not just a GM thing, I haven't been too awfully impressed with any of the manufacturers putting much clear on their paint jobs. More material means less profit so they don't use any more than necessary.

The risk vs. reward is another reason why I do not provide paint correction services any longer. I'll do my own but it is a service that I don't want to be bothered with when it comes to someone else's vehicle. Most of the DIY'ers you see on YouTube are using a DA style of polisher and not as aggressive of compounds and so their detail service is not necessarily taking off much clear. Many will even say they are able to get about 70% of the scratches out and with a DA type of polisher. Using a DA style polisher it is much harder to burn through and actually damage the paint compared to a large commercial polisher/buffer, but also less likely to get down to the bottom of those scratches, so it's a catch 22. Those large buffers will take an edge down to bare steel in a second if not wielding correctly.

 

[Bob Heine]

If I recall, GM was notorious about thin clear coat. As much as I’ve always wanted to remove the orange peel on my truck, I just can’t do it. Call me a chicken, but I don’t want to mess up the paint anymore! Lol

Cody, I'm no expert but I don't think any of the major manufacturers are putting thick clear coat on their cars. Watching some super cars being manufactured, I did see cut and buff being done by hand. Far as I can tell all the vehicles I can afford, including the Cadillac, have an 'as sprayed' finish.

For awhile GM and a lot of maker's clear coat would turn into the white flakiness of a glazed donut in a few runs through a car wash since most people never ever wax their cars.

Dan, I see milky cars of every brand cruising the highways of Florida. We don't have rust problems unless you live on the beach but the sun is not kind to anything. Besides the crystal clear skies, Boca Raton is located at latitude 26.3683° N, three degrees north of the Tropic of Cancer (23.4394° N). That means the sun gets within 3 degrees of being directly overhead on June 21 and within 50 degrees on December 21. While you are pretty far south, Pasadena is located at latitude 34.1478° N.

I'm like you where I hate to ask for help. I was lucky for many, many years as our son was a HUGE help to me. I didn't realize just how much until he bought his own place and moved out but I have had to find ways of doing certain things by myself and for those things that I cannot I too have had to ask the wife for another hand a few times. She's a trooper and doesn't mind one bit but I still hate asking.

Mike, I'm pretty annoying when I start a project. Rather than jumping right in, I ponder things like tools, techniques and workarounds. Then I try to make the job as easy as possible so that takes more pondering. I didn't realize it at the time but that made my son tackle projects and quickly learn to do them much faster than me.

Funny you mentioned the orange peel Bob. I went into a fair amount of detail about this when I was recording the video on Saturday and mentioned that I am less prone to cut much clear from a factory paint job due to not knowing exactly where that line not to cross is. I am a hoser when I paint and lay down quite heavy coats so when I cut & buff one of my paint jobs I am more confident that I won't go through and get a bit more aggressive to remove any and all orange peel to get that mirror finish. On factory jobs I am less willing to risk sanding through as they don't use any more material than necessary.

If you remember several years ago when I repainted the left rear quarter panel on my Jeep after a little touch-up I commented about trying to match the OEM finish as far as orange peel and when color sanding I only lightly hit it as to not remove all of the orange peel or it would stand out next to the factory finish on the panel adjacent to it. Sometimes trying to make a panel perfect actually will detract from the overall job because it may not match the surrounding panels any longer.

I know with just as aggressive as I was with the buffer on our Camaro that I removed a bit of clear but didn't want to take any fine sandpaper to it if at all possible. Luckily I was able to remove all of the scratches without having to break out any sandpaper.



I wouldn't call you a chicken, just prudent. It's not just a GM thing, I haven't been too awfully impressed with any of the manufacturers putting much clear on their paint jobs. More material means less profit so they don't use any more than necessary.

The risk vs. reward is another reason why I do not provide paint correction services any longer. I'll do my own but it is a service that I don't want to be bothered with when it comes to someone else's vehicle. Most of the DIY'ers you see on YouTube are using a DA style of polisher and not as aggressive of compounds and so their detail service is not necessarily taking off much clear. Many will even say they are able to get about 70% of the scratches out and with a DA type of polisher. Using a DA style polisher it is much harder to burn through and actually damage the paint compared to a large commercial polisher/buffer, but also less likely to get down to the bottom of those scratches, so it's a catch 22. Those large buffers will take an edge down to bare steel in a second if not wielding correctly.

Mike, thanks so much for the guidance. I too am a hoser when it comes to clear.

I don't want to repeat the mistakes of my youth. Back in 1978 I bought my '72 Big Block Corvette (nobody wanted gas guzzlers back then). It had some custom paint done after it was involved in a minor accident. They re-painted it with acrylic lacquer and after doing some stripes, clear-coated the car with more acrylic lacquer. I think that clear coat crazed while you were spraying it. When I had the engine blueprinted in 1982 I decided to fix the paint using a high power 7-inch buffer. In preparation, I took all the emblems off. You can see how crazed the paint was in the photo of Liane helping re-install the engine a few posts back (https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/bob-heines-auto-emporium.319566/post-10070729). It looked a lot better but there was no way to remove all the crazed lacquer.

The next time I tried to buff the craze out I went through the clear in a bunch of places. That's when I decided to strip the paint and make a few modifications. That's when I contracted a terminal case of the 'while I'm at it' infection. It means I always have a fun project to return to.

When I had a local shop re-paint the '87 Corvette I asked the owner to hose on the clear so it could be cut and buffed more than once. It's far from perfect but for $2,000 it looks just fine.

I helped a friend paint his '59 Corvette with good old black lacquer. We did 9 coats, sanding after every three. By the time we were done polishing (with a Craftsman 7" buffer) and hand polishing the swirls out, the paint looked a mile deep. He won first place in the Modified Sports Car class at Miami's World of Wheels. I spent a couple of days buffing his $10 set of Ansen wheels. Couldn't get the centers to shine so we spray bombed them gold (it was the early '80s).

I'm going to leave the Cadillac alone but I will do a paint correction. I have a lightweight Flex rotary buffer to start and a Porter Cable 7424XP to finish. I might even break out one of the Dynabrade DAs. They weigh next to nothing but make a fair bit more noise. Maybe I'll wear headphones.

 

[zmotorsports]

Some nice looking Vettes Bob. Many may not remember the old days of hand rubbing those lacquer paint jobs to get that depth and clarity but is sure makes us appreciate the versatility and ease of use that urethanes have brought us.... Lacquer paints were finicky in that they didn't respond well to machine polishing as the heat would cause them to check and craze. They were much more delicate and less durable than our current urethanes. I was fortunate in that my cousin was fantastic at spraying them and I learned at a very young age by watching him and although I only did a few smaller projects with lacquer, I was primed and ready to jump feet first into urethanes when they really hit the industry in the early 80's. I remember thinking to myself just how easy it was to lay down a beautiful paint job with minimal effort, but that was comparing it to lacquers.

 

[GeddyT]

I've tried automotive painting several times. Every time, I approach the project thinking, "THIS is the time I'm not going to eff this up."

I'm always wrong. I've always blamed it on my equipment, but there's a common denominator that I probably shouldn't ignore. I have a lot of respect for you guys that can take paint, clear, and compound to a car and make it look professional. Hell, I'm pretty sure just the ability to shoot paint without drips is some kind of secret that I haven't been let in on.

 

[scooterbum46]

Bob - the Corvette paint story brought back memories of a guy that worked with me. He was single, lived cheaply and was always doing things in a somewhat different tangent (I had a nickname for him, "the original upwind pisser", as quite often what he did had the expected results.

In this case, Terry bought a C3 series Vette that was not in real good shape (**** carpet interior IIRC). The paint was pretty well trashed, so He set to work with a DA " getting ready to paint". Unfortunately, he didn't know when to quit and cut through the gelcoat in large areas. He came to work after taking it to a body shop to get it painted, the manager explained the facts of life and sent him packing. He never did any more with it, it sat in the back yard for years.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

Dan, I see milky cars of every brand cruising the highways of Florida. We don't have rust problems unless you live on the beach but the sun is not kind to anything.

Hi Bob,

My dad always said that wax on a car made it look good but he felt it's real value is protecting the finish from the Sun. His comment was, ".... the Sun is gonna eat and if you don't give it something to eat it's going to eat your paint."
Now, keep in mind my dad was born in 1923 so he got his driver's license in 1939 or 1940. Cars of those days were painted with lacquer and I imagine car wax in those days were very primitive compared to what is available today.

 

[zmotorsports]

Hi Bob,

My dad always said that wax on a car made it look good but he felt it's real value is protecting the finish from the Sun. His comment was, ".... the Sun is gonna eat and if you don't give it something to eat it's going to eat your paint."
Now, keep in mind my dad was born in 1923 so he got his driver's license in 1939 or 1940. Cars of those days were painted with lacquer and I imagine car wax in those days were very primitive compared to what is available today.

Dan, my dad was the same way. He didn't do much in the form of preventive maintenance but he did take care of the family car's finish and loved his Turtle Wax, sometimes too much as it got on trim and in between trim a lot...

That being said, when I attended a PPG paint seminar back in the early 90's they talked specifically on how to best protect a fresh paint job. During this discussion they mentioned about how porous automotive paint finishes were and how they need to "breathe" to ward off oxidation. The best ways to keep the paint breathable were first and foremost just keeping the surface clean, wash it occasionally and keep it clean of debris/droppings. Secondly they warned against using a lot of chemicals on them which tend to plug these pores, specifically harsh waxes and especially those heavy with silicones. They suggested more along the lines of a glaze to more effectively keep the surface clean and less likely to stack up coats of wax. However, they did mention that waxes will generally aid in a deep luster a bit more than a glaze so if you are inclined to use a wax make sure that it is natural such as a Carnauba wax.

For some reason this has stuck with me all these years and to this day I don't use waxes much, if any, at all. I use a glaze once in a while which aids in water beading but not much in the forms of wax. I did use Meguiar's Carnauba wax on the Harley however as it really made the paint pop and helped in keeping dust off and bug removal was much easier. Other than that I rely on a hand glaze to keep the paint looking good.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

Dan, my dad was the same way. He didn't do much in the form of preventive maintenance but he did take care of the family car's finish and loved his Turtle Wax, sometimes too much as it got on trim and in between trim a lot...

That being said, when I attended a PPG paint seminar back in the early 90's they talked specifically on how to best protect a fresh paint job. During this discussion they mentioned about how porous automotive paint finishes were and how they need to "breathe" to ward off oxidation. The best ways to keep the paint breathable were first and foremost just keeping the surface clean, wash it occasionally and keep it clean of debris/droppings. Secondly they warned against using a lot of chemicals on them which tend to plug these pores, specifically harsh waxes and especially those heavy with silicones. They suggested more along the lines of a glaze to more effectively keep the surface clean and less likely to stack up coats of wax. However, they did mention that waxes will generally aid in a deep luster a bit more than a glaze so if you are inclined to use a wax make sure that it is natural such as a Carnauba wax.

For some reason this has stuck with me all these years and to this day I don't use waxes much, if any, at all. I use a glaze once in a while which aids in water beading but not much in the forms of wax. I did use Meguiar's Carnauba wax on the Harley however as it really made the paint pop and helped in keeping dust off and bug removal was much easier. Other than that I rely on a hand glaze to keep the paint looking good.

My go to for many many years was washing Saturday morning and clay barring about every few months, then waxing one panel per week (we lived close to a freeway - REALLY close. You could throw a rock onto it if you had a decent arm!).

After Pasadena, I find I don’t wash quite as often, but I still default to waxing one panel per wash tending to do the hood, roof and trunk (in the days I had a car with a trunk lid) because they get the most exposure to the sun. I’m not as diligent as I was in my 40’s and 50’s but I keep them up. Can’t stand a crappy looking vehicle.

 

[zmotorsports]

My go to for many many years was washing Saturday morning and clay barring about every few months, then waxing one panel per week (we lived close to a freeway - REALLY close. You could throw a rock onto it if you had a decent arm!).

After Pasadena, I find I don’t wash quite as often, but I still default to waxing one panel per wash tending to do the hood, roof and trunk (in the days I had a car with a trunk lid) because they get the most exposure to the sun. I’m not as diligent as I was in my 40’s and 50’s but I keep them up. Can’t stand a crappy looking vehicle.

My plan is to get to the point where I can hand wash my vehicles at least once a week. Had that plan in my head for many years now but just can't seem to get there, seems like there's always something of higher priority going on. Maybe I need to bring less work into the shop and make my own stuff a higher priority.

 

[Bob Heine]

Some nice looking Vettes Bob. Many may not remember the old days of hand rubbing those lacquer paint jobs to get that depth and clarity but is sure makes us appreciate the versatility and ease of use that urethanes have brought us.... Lacquer paints were finicky in that they didn't respond well to machine polishing as the heat would cause them to check and craze. They were much more delicate and less durable than our current urethanes. I was fortunate in that my cousin was fantastic at spraying them and I learned at a very young age by watching him and although I only did a few smaller projects with lacquer, I was primed and ready to jump feet first into urethanes when they really hit the industry in the early 80's. I remember thinking to myself just how easy it was to lay down a beautiful paint job with minimal effort, but that was comparing it to lacquers.

Mike, thank you for the kind words.

In 1963 when I was 18 and living in New York, we were driving a completely rusted-out '56 Chevy with a hopped up 6-cylinder. Found a 1947 Ford for sale that had no rust anywhere. It barely ran but I hoped it just needed a tuneup. With a rebuilt dual point distributor, set of plugs and wires and a LOF it was running like new. The car had been garaged for its entire 17-year life but I suspect the garage had a 6-foot wide door because the trim on both rear fenders were flattened. The garage must have also had the obligatory bushes on either side of the garage door. The paint on all four fenders had straight, pretty deep but not through the paint scratches.

Scrubbed the fenders up real good and sprayed several coats of spray bomb black lacquer. Every couple of coats I sanded the paint with 600-grit (finest available back then) until the scratches disappeared. Then it was time for the red Dupont rubbing compound, followed by the white polishing compound. My father always used Simonize polish, followed by Simonize wax on his cars but it was almost impossible to get a good shine with just elbow grease. I wanted something better so I did the Blue Coral treatment on the Ford. Sadly I never took an 'after' photo.

I've tried automotive painting several times. Every time, I approach the project thinking, "THIS is the time I'm not going to eff this up."

I'm always wrong. I've always blamed it on my equipment, but there's a common denominator that I probably shouldn't ignore. I have a lot of respect for you guys that can take paint, clear, and compound to a car and make it look professional. Hell, I'm pretty sure just the ability to shoot paint without drips is some kind of secret that I haven't been let in on.

Tom, I painted two cars with Rustoleum and brushes and it was very sad. Then I acquired a compressor and a spray gun to paint the house. Following Car Craft, Hot Rod and Rod&Custom magazine articles, I spray painted two more cars. They didn't come out perfect, not even great but better than they were before I painted them and I wasn't as sad.

Like welding, you have to practice and the more you practice the better the end result gets. I found painting with spray guns was much easier than spraying with bombs. I also discovered that more expensive spray guns really did make a difference. I found a used high-end SATA spray gun for a fraction of its new price and all it needed was a month of spare time cleaning (soaking for days sometimes helps). I understand this is not how they are supposed to look inside.

Bob - the Corvette paint story brought back memories of a guy that worked with me. He was single, lived cheaply and was always doing things in a somewhat different tangent (I had a nickname for him, "the original upwind pisser", as quite often what he did had the expected results.

In this case, Terry bought a C3 series Vette that was not in real good shape (**** carpet interior IIRC). The paint was pretty well trashed, so He set to work with a DA " getting ready to paint". Unfortunately, he didn't know when to quit and cut through the gelcoat in large areas. He came to work after taking it to a body shop to get it painted, the manager explained the facts of life and sent him packing. He never did any more with it, it sat in the back yard for years.

Gerry, like lots of people, your friend and I decided to paint a C3 Corvette knowing just enough about painting metal cars to be dangerous. Then you discover painting a Corvette isn't the same. The body panels are glued together with bonding strips. The glue isn't actually fiberglass so it telegraphy through the paint finish. Those stripes on the top edges of my '72 Corvette were put there to hide those blemishes. To prevent the telegraphing you are supposed to grind away the glue and fill the voids with the same kind of fiberglass and resin as the body panels. If you sand through the gelcoat (factory primer) the fibers in the fiberglass start popping up so you have to prime with epoxy or gelcoat before you start applying primer or paint. My plan is to use epoxy primer from the fiberglass to the finish coat with polyurethane for the color and (maybe) clear coats.

Hi Bob,

My dad always said that wax on a car made it look good but he felt it's real value is protecting the finish from the Sun. His comment was, ".... the Sun is gonna eat and if you don't give it something to eat it's going to eat your paint."
Now, keep in mind my dad was born in 1923 so he got his driver's license in 1939 or 1940. Cars of those days were painted with lacquer and I imagine car wax in those days were very primitive compared to what is available today.

Dan, I'm pretty gullible when it comes to car finish protection. I know carnauba is still the best wax to use but I keep trying other stuff. It might be a problem (I'm about to weld up another pair of racks to hold 10 more bottles of product.

Dan, my dad was the same way. He didn't do much in the form of preventive maintenance but he did take care of the family car's finish and loved his Turtle Wax, sometimes too much as it got on trim and in between trim a lot...

That being said, when I attended a PPG paint seminar back in the early 90's they talked specifically on how to best protect a fresh paint job. During this discussion they mentioned about how porous automotive paint finishes were and how they need to "breathe" to ward off oxidation. The best ways to keep the paint breathable were first and foremost just keeping the surface clean, wash it occasionally and keep it clean of debris/droppings. Secondly they warned against using a lot of chemicals on them which tend to plug these pores, specifically harsh waxes and especially those heavy with silicones. They suggested more along the lines of a glaze to more effectively keep the surface clean and less likely to stack up coats of wax. However, they did mention that waxes will generally aid in a deep luster a bit more than a glaze so if you are inclined to use a wax make sure that it is natural such as a Carnauba wax.

For some reason this has stuck with me all these years and to this day I don't use waxes much, if any, at all. I use a glaze once in a while which aids in water beading but not much in the forms of wax. I did use Meguiar's Carnauba wax on the Harley however as it really made the paint pop and helped in keeping dust off and bug removal was much easier. Other than that I rely on a hand glaze to keep the paint looking good.

Mike, none of the people in our Corvette club who showed their cars put wax on them. Long before the advent of the microfiber towel they would do the final polish with a cloth diaper. It was the softest cloth fabric you could find.

My go to for many many years was washing Saturday morning and clay barring about every few months, then waxing one panel per week (we lived close to a freeway - REALLY close. You could throw a rock onto it if you had a decent arm!).

After Pasadena, I find I don’t wash quite as often, but I still default to waxing one panel per wash tending to do the hood, roof and trunk (in the days I had a car with a trunk lid) because they get the most exposure to the sun. I’m not as diligent as I was in my 40’s and 50’s but I keep them up. Can’t stand a crappy looking vehicle.

Dan, I don't wash the cars as often as I used to but I also don't drive them as much. I've adopted the foam cannon as the first pass on the cars. I have two pressure washers. One is gas powered for blasting mold and mildew off driveways, patios, walks and wals (they're Floridian's snowblowers). The other is a less powerful electric that generates less pressure. Spray on a layer of foam with the cannon, quick wipe with a soapy microfiber mitt and spray it clean with the green (25°) nozzle. Then the car goes in the garage with the A/C on and it gets dried off with a giant microfiber towel. Your wax-a-panel regimen sounds like a great idea. I'll probably need to keep a checklist in the car to keep track of which panels have been done.

My plan is to get to the point where I can hand wash my vehicles at least once a week. Had that plan in my head for many years now but just can't seem to get there, seems like there's always something of higher priority going on. Maybe I need to bring less work into the shop and make my own stuff a higher priority.

Mike, I also planned to wash my cars weekly when I retired. That plan crashed into the reality when projects expanded to fill the available time. I'm becoming more flexible in my dotage, spending more time with Liane and less time with my 'stuff.'

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, I also planned to wash my cars weekly when I retired. That plan crashed into the reality when projects expanded to fill the available time. I'm becoming more flexible in my dotage, spending more time with Liane and less time with my 'stuff.'

I'm right there with ya Bob. I keep telling myself I need to work more to earn more for retirement but it comes at a cost of time that we never get back. I feel like we are doing well with retirement investments and savings but I can't seem to get rid of that feeling that I should be knocking work out of the shop if I have the time.

Now with a new addition to our family I would like to be in a position that when our grandson gets to an age where he can come out in the shop with me I would like to do more "fun" projects with him and worry less about making money.

I am actually looking forward to the weather warming so the wife and I can hop in the car and go for drives on weekends rather than working. I just wish I could rid myself of that nagging feeling that I should be home making money when I'm out having fun. Some days I feel like I am getting better at it and then other days I revert right back to old habits of scheduling work.

 

[kaymccampbell]

I'm right there with ya Bob. I keep telling myself I need to work more to earn more for retirement but it comes at a cost of time that we never get back. I feel like we are doing well with retirement investments and savings but I can't seem to get rid of that feeling that I should be knocking work out of the shop if I have the time.

Now with a new addition to our family I would like to be in a position that when our grandson gets to an age where he can come out in the shop with me I would like to do more "fun" projects with him and worry less about making money.

I am actually looking forward to the weather warming so the wife and I can hop in the car and go for drives on weekends rather than working. I just wish I could rid myself of that nagging feeling that I should be home making money when I'm out having fun. Some days I feel like I am getting better at it and then other days I revert right back to old habits of scheduling work.

45 years I played that game. One day I woke up and gave the man 6 months notice. Since most of my pleasures are simple, being frugal in retirement is easy. My money should outlast me. If I had to have a plane or a vacation condo, I'd still be working. Well, not really, I'd be dead.

 

[Bob Heine]

I'm right there with ya Bob. I keep telling myself I need to work more to earn more for retirement but it comes at a cost of time that we never get back. I feel like we are doing well with retirement investments and savings but I can't seem to get rid of that feeling that I should be knocking work out of the shop if I have the time.

Now with a new addition to our family I would like to be in a position that when our grandson gets to an age where he can come out in the shop with me I would like to do more "fun" projects with him and worry less about making money.

I am actually looking forward to the weather warming so the wife and I can hop in the car and go for drives on weekends rather than working. I just wish I could rid myself of that nagging feeling that I should be home making money when I'm out having fun. Some days I feel like I am getting better at it and then other days I revert right back to old habits of scheduling work.

Mike, I know you are working diligently to eliminate the mortgage and that was my goal as well. I was surprised how much less income we needed in retirement because I never realized how much it cost to have a job. You already have the motorhome to fill many of your retirement days, visiting all the hidden gems in this beautiful country. Your issue will be leaving the Camaro behind while on the road with the Jeep in tow. And that little guy who will grow up in the blink of an eye. Very tough choices indeed!

 

[Bob Heine]

45 years I played that game. One day I woke up and gave the man 6 months notice. Since most of my pleasures are simple, being frugal in retirement is easy. My money should outlast me. If I had to have a plane or a vacation condo, I'd still be working. Well, not really, I'd be dead.

Kay, I had this premonition that I would die young and at 21 I didn't but was ready to retire. When I discovered you need money to retire and railroads are hard to sue, I had to move the goal but the goal never changed. I wanted to somehow retire as soon as possible. Working for a company that offered a pension seemed like a good idea so I stayed. When said company made me an offer I couldn't refuse right after my 49th birthday, I retired. No plane, no boat, no second home. A pension, a couple of retirement savings plans, some investments and living low on the hog made it doable. I couldn't be happier but that would involve finishing some of the projects I started. Actually, finishing projects doesn't make me happy, it makes me feel less guilty.

Every day I'm surprised I'm not dead.

 

[Squankum]

Hi Bob,

My dad always said that wax on a car made it look good but he felt it's real value is protecting the finish from the Sun. His comment was, ".... the Sun is gonna eat and if you don't give it something to eat it's going to eat your paint."
Now, keep in mind my dad was born in 1923 so he got his driver's license in 1939 or 1940. Cars of those days were painted with lacquer and I imagine car wax in those days were very primitive compared to what is available today.

I've been proving that since the mid 90's... the wrong way. All of my time and energy has gone into fighting entropy on the mechanical front. (And racing for a long spell... and other hobbies.)

 

[LeonardY]

Bob,
I was forced into retirement. I payed my house off about 5 years ago. Best thing I ever did.
Had a coworker tell me that I should be pulling the money out and investing in the stock market. He said he was never paying his house off. In fact, at the beginning of 2020 he refinance all his rentals and his home. Put the money in the stock market. Sadly, it became the perfect storm for him.
I thought about looking for work but the more time I spent away the less I wanted to go back to work. It will be tight for a while but I can make it work.

 

[zmotorsports]

45 years I played that game. One day I woke up and gave the man 6 months notice. Since most of my pleasures are simple, being frugal in retirement is easy. My money should outlast me. If I had to have a plane or a vacation condo, I'd still be working. Well, not really, I'd be dead.

Mike, I know you are working diligently to eliminate the mortgage and that was my goal as well. I was surprised how much less income we needed in retirement because I never realized how much it cost to have a job. You already have the motorhome to fill many of your retirement days, visiting all the hidden gems in this beautiful country. Your issue will be leaving the Camaro behind while on the road with the Jeep in tow. And that little guy who will grow up in the blink of an eye. Very tough choices indeed!

Kay, I wish I could say my pleasures are simple and I wish I could say to myself I could live a simple life. While I don't feel we waste money and the wife and I are quite frugal in the majority of our day to day lives, we unfortunately, have a couple of rather expensive hobbies and those hobbies are what we want to do more of in retirement. I would also like to feel comfortable when we retire that we will have what I feel is "more than enough" as opposed to "enough to retire". I've watched several friends retire early (mid-50's) only to realize that they can't afford to do **** and I don't want that to be us.

Bob, thank you. Yes we are working diligently to knock down the mortgage as quickly as possible and it does actually make it easier knowing we are in our dream home and the fact that we love our home and have no desire to live elsewhere. That being said, we are also quite fortunate to have been able to save and live the life we have for the past nearly 20 or so years living below our means however, as we get nearer to retirement we want to upgrade the coach one more time and that won't be cheap either so it will require a substantion amount of money to be liquid and not ******* in investments such as our retirement accounts.

Lastly, and this may not mean much to some, but I hear from many coworkers and even relatives that they don't intend to leave **** to their kids and that they will enjoy their retirement to the fullest without a thought to leaving anything behind. Now while I intend for the wife and I to enjoy our retirement I actually want to leave a substantial part of our estate to my kids and grandkids. I want to leave a legacy behind that can be used to better their lives and allow them the opportunity to have charitable hearts. That may sound silly and foolish in this day and age but I want to have some kind of positive impact on the next generation of my wife and I's family. If that means that I have to work a bit harder and a bit longer then so be it, I guess there are worse things in life.

 

[Dan in Pasadena]

....... I actually want to leave a substantial part of our estate to my kids and grandkids. I want to leave a legacy behind that can be used to better their lives and allow them the opportunity to have charitable hearts. That may sound silly and foolish in this day and age but I want to have some kind of positive impact on the next generation of my wife and I's family. If that means that I have to work a bit harder and a bit longer then so be it, I guess there are worse things in life.

This ^^^ is exactly how I feel too. I retired 5+ years ago, my girlfriend of over 23 years retired almost 9 years ago when her son had his daughter; her only biological granddaughter, and would drive 200 miles north every other week to be with and raise the baby until she got old enough to go to school.

We are both very close to our other grand children ages 9, 5 & 10 months. Nothing is more important than they are. Our feeling is that when we pass the only things we leave behind for certain is the adults these children will become and if what they know as children is love, acceptance, sharing and responsibility that is what they will spread in their time in this world.

We've been very very fortunate to be able to retire in our early 60's, have things like an RV and boat and still be able to travel some from a nice home. A lot of that happened because we paid off our former home just as I retired.

 

[bugnut]

WOW, first apologies for hijacking Bobs space.

Secondly I always thought I'd like to leave my kids stuff to feather their nests. As I have aged I realized given life expectancy, that my kids/grandkids will not benefit much after I am gone, the stuff we leave to them just increases their piles. If they follow the philanthropic nature that they have been shown it will help others.
However, there is a time, in our kids and grandkids, lives when an unexpected gift would be most welcome. I would suggest that, continuing gifts starting, about the time our grandkids reach preteens, would be most welcome as our childrens demand for a financial boost is at it's zenith.

What good does it do our kids if they are retiring as we pass and they get a boat load of funds? If we have educated our children well, by that time in their lives living should be easy.

So while I admire the thought, the practical aspect from my perspective is a bit off mark.

 

[kaymccampbell]

WOW, first apologies for hijacking Bobs space.

Secondly I always thought I'd like to leave my kids stuff to feather their nests. As I have aged I realized given life expectancy, that my kids/grandkids will not benefit much after I am gone, the stuff we leave to them just increases their piles. If they follow the philanthropic nature that they have been shown it will help others.
However, there is a time, in our kids and grandkids, lives when an unexpected gift would be most welcome. I would suggest that, continuing gifts starting, about the time our grandkids reach preteens, would be most welcome as our childrens demand for a financial boost is at it's zenith.

What good does it do our kids if they are retiring as we pass and they get a boat load of funds? If we have educated our children well, by that time in their lives living should be easy.

So while I admire the thought, the practical aspect from my perspective is a bit off mark.

I don't have to worry. I told my kids not to reproduce in my lifetime. I told them there was an extremely high chance of getting a kid just like me. So far, the threat has worked.

 

[zmotorsports]

WOW, first apologies for hijacking Bobs space.

What good does it do our kids if they are retiring as we pass and they get a boat load of funds? If we have educated our children well, by that time in their lives living should be easy.

So while I admire the thought, the practical aspect from my perspective is a bit off mark.

I hope Bob doesn't mind us mulling over life's questions on his thread but this really struck a chord with me today, probably more so than on a normal day. Over the past several months in particular I have been quandering over all of life's paths, directions, options and choices that we are faced with each and every day that lead us all to a precise yet completely different point in life. I am certain all of this "profound" thinking has had a lot to do with our son and DIL expecting our first, and possibly only, grandchild. But nonetheless, it has really made me ponder many of my choices thus far in life and especially those choices going forward that can aid or assist my family, heirs or lineage. When my son and DIL were pregnant I was scared and excited all at the same time. During their reveal I kept getting asked if I had a preference, boy or girl. At that time I really hadn't given all that much thought because with the trouble they had getting pregnant and getting to that point in the pregnancy the focus had been solely on a healthy and happy baby, regardless of gender. After they found out it was going to be a boy on the other hand, I was even more deep in thought and worry. I would joke about not knowing what to do with a little granddaughter but I'm sure I would figure out cool stuff do with a granddaughter just as much as a grandson. However, my later thoughts started turning more and more towards the fact that a grandson will be able to carry on my name and those that know me know that is pretty important to me. I am sure that of my siblings I put more effort and thought into my father's name than anyone else in our family and I actually wish some of my siblings and their kids would have cherished our family name more and not done some of the things they have but that's an entire different book of events.

I would also like to think that I am not old by any means, but let's face it, I'm not getting any younger and as I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning (downward slide) I have been thinking more and more about my legacy and what I want to leave behind. There are some people/friends that think I have this great gift and can do anything mechanically. Now while I don't necessarily see it that way, I feel I have a skill that I am continuing to build upon and that I can make a living with but it is just as much a tool to get through life as the actual tools that I use every day. I also used to think that my skillset and knowledge could be handed down to generation and generation but as I've gotten older I realize that is not the case. My son doesn't have the same passion that I do although he does have a great bit of knowledge but it doesn't drive him the same way it does me. So much of my knowledge will be gone when I'm gone. He will have some memories and some decent knowledge, and a pretty cool collection of tools and equipment to use , but I doubt he'll have the same skillset and knowledge as I do.

So finally accepting that, I have found myself turning to what else I can leave behind when I'm gone and of course it makes me think monetary assets. Now I must say I absolutely agree with @bugnut comment about if we've educated our children well they should be living a good life by the time we are nearing the end of our lives. I am so proud of the way my son has accepted his responsibilities as the man of the house and now being a father and it makes my heart swell with pride when I watch him with his son. I know he has made good choices thus far in life and I see him on a good path for his family's well being which actually somewhat lowers my stress level and takes some worries away. I listen to coworkers talk about all of the issues with their grown children and it makes me even more proud of my son and the choices he's made along life's journey.

The reason the comment from @bugnut hit so close to home today as last night my wife and I had our annual "checkup" with our financial planner and we had a very lengthy discussion around "legacy" and what it means to me and what he wants for us based on the numbers he was looking at. He was also very persistent in drilling my wife and I on what "we" wanted our retirement to look like and not talk about what we wanted to leave behind. I think he could see the self turmoil I had been going through lately and was very persistent in explaining to my wife and I that we have quite a legacy to leave if you start looking at real estate value as well as liquidity. I keep focusing solely on the liquidity portion and to be honest, I forget about the real estate and everything else that will be left behind. I must also say it is good to take stock every now and then to see where you're at as well as where you want to be. I think too many times people see where they want to be but don't have a "true" account of where they are currently at and then are either unaware or worse, unwilling to make changes to get them where they want to be. It is nice to have someone go through all the numbers and show you a snapshot of where you're at and have it actually match where you think you are in life as it turns into more of a validation process and less of a wake up call.

Now with all that rambling aside, our financial planner said something last night that had a very profound and forceful impact on both my wife and I. He said "do you want to give with warm hands or cold hands?" I will admit that comment stopped us in our tracks and mid-sentence. THAT made so damn much sense to us at that moment that everything else just faded away.

We went to dinner afterwards and talked as well as talked the entire drive home and all we talked about was that comment and what it meant to us. This part is hard to type because I don't want to sound boastful or like I'm bragging, just sharing some of life's show-stopper moments and that was one. I seem to do so much research to see where people of my age are at, what's the medium, where do we fall in terms of demographics, what are people like us doing to move forward, etc. Then last night I realized that there are no two people like us and other people's plan is their plan, not our plan. I need to quit comparing our situation or where we're at in life to anyone else's and more importantly, the fact that we have a plan and we need to stick to OUR plan and the hell with anyone else's plan.

Our snapshot last night proved to me that we are on the right path, we have a well balanced plan between investments, savings and knocking out our last remaining debt, our mortgage. We were shown the pros and cons of what other plans look like when they are too biased towards investments only and not enough on debt reduction and then focused solely on debt reduction but nothing going towards investments and both paths with nothing liquid in savings and it proved to me that our plan is perfect for us and I need to quit worrying about what we're leaving behind and focus more on what is right in front of us.

TIME right now is our most precious commodity and with each and every passing day there is less and less of it even though our liquidity it growing. That is a sobering thought and we came to the conclusion that we want to give experiences and help where we can with warm hands as opposed to leaving a **** ton of money behind when we're dead and gone.

I apologize Bob, for the lengthy post but it seems we've had multiple wonderful exchanges of life's perspectives over the years and with the above comment hitting me so hard this morning I just wanted to thank @bugnut for making that statement and thank you Bob, for our conversations over the years.

I've said it before that I feel like my wife and I are living the American Dream and I hope that everyone can live whatever their version of the American Dream is, but it requires a plan and sometimes those plans require a course correction and we are unwilling to make those corrections or adjustments then we may find out we miss our target. I read something the other day that mentioned the importance of just one degree. It said at 211-degrees water is just hot water, but at 212-degrees it boils and changes state. If we are walking and we are off course by only 1-degree that in one-mile we will be off by more than 90-feet. If the astronauts trying to land on the moon were only off by 1-degree they would have missed the moon by more than 4100 miles. Therefore it is imperative that we stay on course going through life if we are to hit our mark because only one-degree can make a difference. I really liked that statement.

I feel fortunate to be a part of this great community and feel there are many like-minded members who are so very willing to share their knowledge that these discussions go well beyond the walls of our shops or the tools we use.

 

[legenddc]

Around 5 years ago my in-laws were struggling with being forced to get rid of my father-in-laws parent's vacation home. His brothers didn't have the interest or money to support it once their mother died. My in-laws were discussing buying another lake house and asked me what I'd rather have when they passed away, a vacation house or money. I very honestly told them that I'd rather have more time with them than a house or money and that anything would be nice but it didn't factor into our life plan. They seemed a bit offended at first but I think came around to realize I meant it's their money and to enjoy it.

I would joke about not knowing what to do with a little granddaughter but I'm sure I would figure out cool stuff do with a granddaughter just as much as a grandson.

I've heard this sentiment a lot and the answer is nothing different. My father-in-law had two daughters and raised them both on "boy" things. Both his daughters like dragons, Jurassic Park and super heroes. My daughter paints her nails, wants to dress up and enjoys playing with dolls but she also builds with Legos, shows interest in DIY and plays sports.

 

[GeddyT]

My plan is to make sure my kids are more successful than me so they can afford to pay off all of my debts after I die...

 

[zmotorsports]

My plan is to make sure my kids are more successful than me so they can afford to pay off all of my debts after I die...

I think my son is already more successful than I am. I think as parents we want our kids to have more and be more than we are and I've told people before that my greatest contribution to this world is my son.

 

[LeonardY]

I don't have to worry. I told my kids not to reproduce in my lifetime. I told them there was an extremely high chance of getting a kid just like me. So far, the threat has worked.

Ha... I always say my mother cursed me by telling me I was going to have one just like me. I know what I'm like...

 

[LeonardY]

I hope Bob doesn't mind us mulling over life's questions on his thread but this really struck a chord with me today, probably more so than on a normal day. Over the past several months in particular I have been quandering over all of life's paths, directions, options and choices that we are faced with each and every day that lead us all to a precise yet completely different point in life. I am certain all of this "profound" thinking has had a lot to do with our son and DIL expecting our first, and possibly only, grandchild. But nonetheless, it has really made me ponder many of my choices thus far in life and especially those choices going forward that can aid or assist my family, heirs or lineage. When my son and DIL were pregnant I was scared and excited all at the same time. During their reveal I kept getting asked if I had a preference, boy or girl. At that time I really hadn't given all that much thought because with the trouble they had getting pregnant and getting to that point in the pregnancy the focus had been solely on a healthy and happy baby, regardless of gender. After they found out it was going to be a boy on the other hand, I was even more deep in thought and worry. I would joke about not knowing what to do with a little granddaughter but I'm sure I would figure out cool stuff do with a granddaughter just as much as a grandson. However, my later thoughts started turning more and more towards the fact that a grandson will be able to carry on my name and those that know me know that is pretty important to me. I am sure that of my siblings I put more effort and thought into my father's name than anyone else in our family and I actually wish some of my siblings and their kids would have cherished our family name more and not done some of the things they have but that's an entire different book of events.

I would also like to think that I am not old by any means, but let's face it, I'm not getting any younger and as I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning (downward slide) I have been thinking more and more about my legacy and what I want to leave behind. There are some people/friends that think I have this great gift and can do anything mechanically. Now while I don't necessarily see it that way, I feel I have a skill that I am continuing to build upon and that I can make a living with but it is just as much a tool to get through life as the actual tools that I use every day. I also used to think that my skillset and knowledge could be handed down to generation and generation but as I've gotten older I realize that is not the case. My son doesn't have the same passion that I do although he does have a great bit of knowledge but it doesn't drive him the same way it does me. So much of my knowledge will be gone when I'm gone. He will have some memories and some decent knowledge, and a pretty cool collection of tools and equipment to use , but I doubt he'll have the same skillset and knowledge as I do.

So finally accepting that, I have found myself turning to what else I can leave behind when I'm gone and of course it makes me think monetary assets. Now I must say I absolutely agree with @bugnut comment about if we've educated our children well they should be living a good life by the time we are nearing the end of our lives. I am so proud of the way my son has accepted his responsibilities as the man of the house and now being a father and it makes my heart swell with pride when I watch him with his son. I know he has made good choices thus far in life and I see him on a good path for his family's well being which actually somewhat lowers my stress level and takes some worries away. I listen to coworkers talk about all of the issues with their grown children and it makes me even more proud of my son and the choices he's made along life's journey.

The reason the comment from @bugnut hit so close to home today as last night my wife and I had our annual "checkup" with our financial planner and we had a very lengthy discussion around "legacy" and what it means to me and what he wants for us based on the numbers he was looking at. He was also very persistent in drilling my wife and I on what "we" wanted our retirement to look like and not talk about what we wanted to leave behind. I think he could see the self turmoil I had been going through lately and was very persistent in explaining to my wife and I that we have quite a legacy to leave if you start looking at real estate value as well as liquidity. I keep focusing solely on the liquidity portion and to be honest, I forget about the real estate and everything else that will be left behind. I must also say it is good to take stock every now and then to see where you're at as well as where you want to be. I think too many times people see where they want to be but don't have a "true" account of where they are currently at and then are either unaware or worse, unwilling to make changes to get them where they want to be. It is nice to have someone go through all the numbers and show you a snapshot of where you're at and have it actually match where you think you are in life as it turns into more of a validation process and less of a wake up call.

Now with all that rambling aside, our financial planner said something last night that had a very profound and forceful impact on both my wife and I. He said "do you want to give with warm hands or cold hands?" I will admit that comment stopped us in our tracks and mid-sentence. THAT made so damn much sense to us at that moment that everything else just faded away.

We went to dinner afterwards and talked as well as talked the entire drive home and all we talked about was that comment and what it meant to us. This part is hard to type because I don't want to sound boastful or like I'm bragging, just sharing some of life's show-stopper moments and that was one. I seem to do so much research to see where people of my age are at, what's the medium, where do we fall in terms of demographics, what are people like us doing to move forward, etc. Then last night I realized that there are no two people like us and other people's plan is their plan, not our plan. I need to quit comparing our situation or where we're at in life to anyone else's and more importantly, the fact that we have a plan and we need to stick to OUR plan and the hell with anyone else's plan.

Our snapshot last night proved to me that we are on the right path, we have a well balanced plan between investments, savings and knocking out our last remaining debt, our mortgage. We were shown the pros and cons of what other plans look like when they are too biased towards investments only and not enough on debt reduction and then focused solely on debt reduction but nothing going towards investments and both paths with nothing liquid in savings and it proved to me that our plan is perfect for us and I need to quit worrying about what we're leaving behind and focus more on what is right in front of us.

TIME right now is our most precious commodity and with each and every passing day there is less and less of it even though our liquidity it growing. That is a sobering thought and we came to the conclusion that we want to give experiences and help where we can with warm hands as opposed to leaving a **** ton of money behind when we're dead and gone.

I apologize Bob, for the lengthy post but it seems we've had multiple wonderful exchanges of life's perspectives over the years and with the above comment hitting me so hard this morning I just wanted to thank @bugnut for making that statement and thank you Bob, for our conversations over the years.

I've said it before that I feel like my wife and I are living the American Dream and I hope that everyone can live whatever their version of the American Dream is, but it requires a plan and sometimes those plans require a course correction and we are unwilling to make those corrections or adjustments then we may find out we miss our target. I read something the other day that mentioned the importance of just one degree. It said at 211-degrees water is just hot water, but at 212-degrees it boils and changes state. If we are walking and we are off course by only 1-degree that in one-mile we will be off by more than 90-feet. If the astronauts trying to land on the moon were only off by 1-degree they would have missed the moon by more than 4100 miles. Therefore it is imperative that we stay on course going through life if we are to hit our mark because only one-degree can make a difference. I really liked that statement.

I feel fortunate to be a part of this great community and feel there are many like-minded members who are so very willing to share their knowledge that these discussions go well beyond the walls of our shops or the tools we use.

Mike,

I get where you are initially coming from. My brother and I are dealing with my dad and mom. Dad is worried about what he is leaving behind for us. He watches the stock market ticker all day long. We asked him not to because it is simply not healthy for him.

My brother and I have always worked towards not relying on my parents wealth for our retirement. That's the way my parents raised us.

I'll leave you with this. Since you seem well on your way to a great retirement and a wonderful perspective about life. My sister in law said after her parents passed. "It saddens me that my parents hadn't spent their money on things they wanted to do."

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike,

I get where you are initially coming from. My brother and I are dealing with my dad and mom. Dad is worried about what he is leaving behind for us. He watches the stock market ticker all day long. We asked him not to because it is simply not healthy for him.

My brother and I have always worked towards not relying on my parents wealth for our retirement. That's the way my parents raised us.

I'll leave you with this. Since you seem well on your way to a great retirement and a wonderful perspective about life. My sister in law said after parents passed. "It saddens me that my parents hadn't spent their money on things they wanted to do."

Thank you for those thoughts.

When our planner was showing us the spreadsheet and the two columns I was looking at being real estate and liquid assets I will be honest I kept looking at the liquid one and not really even paying attention to the real estate one. My thinking was that I won't be selling the house and will hand it down so that is a moot point. However, it was beat into my head that it is still part of our net worth and has tremendous value so it must be calculated in and that was going to be our legacy. He stated he would like to see the column on the right (liquid assets) be to zero when the second one of us takes their last breath because we will still be gifting a large amount. I don't necessarily agree with that but I do now understand the point he was trying to make.

 

[Bob Heine]

I've been proving that since the mid 90's... the wrong way. All of my time and energy has gone into fighting entropy on the mechanical front. (And racing for a long spell... and other hobbies.)

@Squankum, Florida doesn't help. The only sand that ends up on our roads is carried there by beach-goers and the salt is brought there in minuscule amounts on the tires of said beach-goers. Because most Florida's roads use crushed limestone mixed with asphalt, the white road dust doesn't show on the many white (25%), gray (15.5%) and silver (14.5%) vehicles. The black (23.2%) vehicles look clean for a few minutes.

Bob,
I was forced into retirement. I payed my house off about 5 years ago. Best thing I ever did.
Had a coworker tell me that I should be pulling the money out and investing in the stock market. He said he was never paying his house off. In fact, at the beginning of 2020 he refinance all his rentals and his home. Put the money in the stock market. Sadly, it became the perfect storm for him.
I thought about looking for work but the more time I spent away the less I wanted to go back to work. It will be tight for a while but I can make it work.

Leonard, I wasn't forced to retire but dangling year's salary and no pension reduction for age (if you had 30 years service) was pretty close. I only had 29 years but they asked me to stay on as an independent contractor for another year so 2 year's salary for my last year.

A friend (and our daughter) are in that same camp. At one point in the DotCom bubble they had grown their $50,000 investment to $200,000. Our daughter took up day-trading instead of working (after Pratt Whitney shut down) and was looking at $Million homes on the water. Because they were buying and selling numerous times a day they paid huge commissions and had to declare all that short term gain and pay tax on it as plain income. When the market went south, they pulled out when their portfolio fell below $50,000. They have been deducting the maximum $3,000 carryover loss each year from their income tax since then. They are 23 years into the 50 years of write-offs to go. In my case I invested $5,000 in America Online in 1995. It grew to $211,000 but I chose not to sell (to avoid the taxes). The bubble burst and I ended up selling it for little more than break-even money. The only people who came close in the chicken counting camp were the ones flipping houses after the DotCom bubble burst who said "You can't lose money in real estate!"

My initial retirement lasted seven months. Got a cold call from a department at America Online (AOL) that needed a technical writer (I are one) for six weeks. Turned into a four year vacation that paid enough to get me to 59.5 when I could touch my retirement savings penalty-free.

Kay, I wish I could say my pleasures are simple and I wish I could say to myself I could live a simple life. While I don't feel we waste money and the wife and I are quite frugal in the majority of our day to day lives, we unfortunately, have a couple of rather expensive hobbies and those hobbies are what we want to do more of in retirement. I would also like to feel comfortable when we retire that we will have what I feel is "more than enough" as opposed to "enough to retire". I've watched several friends retire early (mid-50's) only to realize that they can't afford to do **** and I don't want that to be us.

Bob, thank you. Yes we are working diligently to knock down the mortgage as quickly as possible and it does actually make it easier knowing we are in our dream home and the fact that we love our home and have no desire to live elsewhere. That being said, we are also quite fortunate to have been able to save and live the life we have for the past nearly 20 or so years living below our means however, as we get nearer to retirement we want to upgrade the coach one more time and that won't be cheap either so it will require a substantion amount of money to be liquid and not ******* in investments such as our retirement accounts.

Lastly, and this may not mean much to some, but I hear from many coworkers and even relatives that they don't intend to leave **** to their kids and that they will enjoy their retirement to the fullest without a thought to leaving anything behind. Now while I intend for the wife and I to enjoy our retirement I actually want to leave a substantial part of our estate to my kids and grandkids. I want to leave a legacy behind that can be used to better their lives and allow them the opportunity to have charitable hearts. That may sound silly and foolish in this day and age but I want to have some kind of positive impact on the next generation of my wife and I's family. If that means that I have to work a bit harder and a bit longer then so be it, I guess there are worse things in life.

Mike, Liane and I have always taken a 'different' path. Unlike our grandmothers, both our mothers worked full time so we decided to live on whatever I earned so Liane could be home with the children. Frugal is the kindest euphemism I can use to describe our life together in the beginning. When my salary went up, we rarely spent more.

In retirement we're financial well off and with no debt it's pretty easy to live comfortably. We fed our wanderlust well before I retired so there are no Caribbean cruises, European vacations or timeshares in our future.

We never lived beyond our means and we're not going to start now so our children will have an inheritance far larger than either of us received. Of course two children, nine grandchildren and soon to be five great grandchildren means it will be spread a little thinner.

This ^^^ is exactly how I feel too. I retired 5+ years ago, my girlfriend of over 23 years retired almost 9 years ago when her son had his daughter; her only biological granddaughter, and would drive 200 miles north every other week to be with and raise the baby until she got old enough to go to school.

We are both very close to our other grand children ages 9, 5 & 10 months. Nothing is more important than they are. Our feeling is that when we pass the only things we leave behind for certain is the adults these children will become and if what they know as children is love, acceptance, sharing and responsibility that is what they will spread in their time in this world.

We've been very very fortunate to be able to retire in our early 60's, have things like an RV and boat and still be able to travel some from a nice home. A lot of that happened because we paid off our former home just as I retired.

Dan, I retired twice and it's been 24 years since my successful second attempt. All nine of our grandchildren are adults and so far none have spent time in jail or addicted to drugs. We're very proud of every one of them and we've done our best to be in their lives but not interfering in them. When they need help with something we're there and when they ask for advice we usually give more than they want.

I don't know if it's wisdom or common sense but I know every choice I've made in my golden years has aimed at reducing stress. When we were poor, money caused a lot of stress. I should say lack of money. I stressed over paying bills, I stressed over paying bills on time. I stressed over purchases too big to pay off that day. I stressed over bouncing checks. I stressed over the mortgage charging more in interest than the price of the house. There was no way I could live through the stress of a car loan.

Slowly but surely we eliminated stress. Paid off the mortgage a decade early. Found a bank that would pay bills electronically. I'm down to writing four checks a year.

WOW, first apologies for hijacking Bobs space.

Secondly I always thought I'd like to leave my kids stuff to feather their nests. As I have aged I realized given life expectancy, that my kids/grandkids will not benefit much after I am gone, the stuff we leave to them just increases their piles. If they follow the philanthropic nature that they have been shown it will help others.
However, there is a time, in our kids and grandkids, lives when an unexpected gift would be most welcome. I would suggest that, continuing gifts starting, about the time our grandkids reach preteens, would be most welcome as our childrens demand for a financial boost is at it's zenith.

What good does it do our kids if they are retiring as we pass and they get a boat load of funds? If we have educated our children well, by that time in their lives living should be easy.

So while I admire the thought, the practical aspect from my perspective is a bit off mark.

@bugnut, no apology needed. I'm glad Ryan lets my thread continue it's off-topic lines of discussion. I don't think my Alliance Membership contribution comes close to paying him back.

In recent years Liane and I have taken up living gifts. From the cardboard boxes containing our ashes, we won't get to see the joy or sadness when our heirs learn what we've left behind. We'd rather witness it while we're alive. Last year we gave our son and his wife tax-free gifts toward paying off their mortgage. We just had Liane's favorite three ring wedding set re-sized for our daughter-in-law. We know she'll wear them rather than sell the too-small set when we're gone.

I don't have to worry. I told my kids not to reproduce in my lifetime. I told them there was an extremely high chance of getting a kid just like me. So far, the threat has worked.

Kay, we obviously suggested the same thing. Liane often responded to the question: "Who do they look like?" with "Their father, God rest his soul." Our daughter had two boys so her husband's line will not fade out. They are 24 and 26 and both are budding INCELS and still in school. Our son was clearly not paying attention and has four boys and three girls. His two oldest sons have five children of their own (two of them have yet-to-be-determined birthdays). Not one of them has expressed interest in train riding or diving.

I hope Bob doesn't mind us mulling over life's questions on his thread but this really struck a chord with me today, probably more so than on a normal day. Over the past several months in particular I have been quandering over all of life's paths, directions, options and choices that we are faced with each and every day that lead us all to a precise yet completely different point in life. I am certain all of this "profound" thinking has had a lot to do with our son and DIL expecting our first, and possibly only, grandchild. But nonetheless, it has really made me ponder many of my choices thus far in life and especially those choices going forward that can aid or assist my family, heirs or lineage. When my son and DIL were pregnant I was scared and excited all at the same time. During their reveal I kept getting asked if I had a preference, boy or girl. At that time I really hadn't given all that much thought because with the trouble they had getting pregnant and getting to that point in the pregnancy the focus had been solely on a healthy and happy baby, regardless of gender. After they found out it was going to be a boy on the other hand, I was even more deep in thought and worry. I would joke about not knowing what to do with a little granddaughter but I'm sure I would figure out cool stuff do with a granddaughter just as much as a grandson. However, my later thoughts started turning more and more towards the fact that a grandson will be able to carry on my name and those that know me know that is pretty important to me. I am sure that of my siblings I put more effort and thought into my father's name than anyone else in our family and I actually wish some of my siblings and their kids would have cherished our family name more and not done some of the things they have but that's an entire different book of events.

I would also like to think that I am not old by any means, but let's face it, I'm not getting any younger and as I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning (downward slide) I have been thinking more and more about my legacy and what I want to leave behind. There are some people/friends that think I have this great gift and can do anything mechanically. Now while I don't necessarily see it that way, I feel I have a skill that I am continuing to build upon and that I can make a living with but it is just as much a tool to get through life as the actual tools that I use every day. I also used to think that my skillset and knowledge could be handed down to generation and generation but as I've gotten older I realize that is not the case. My son doesn't have the same passion that I do although he does have a great bit of knowledge but it doesn't drive him the same way it does me. So much of my knowledge will be gone when I'm gone. He will have some memories and some decent knowledge, and a pretty cool collection of tools and equipment to use , but I doubt he'll have the same skillset and knowledge as I do.

So finally accepting that, I have found myself turning to what else I can leave behind when I'm gone and of course it makes me think monetary assets. Now I must say I absolutely agree with @bugnut comment about if we've educated our children well they should be living a good life by the time we are nearing the end of our lives. I am so proud of the way my son has accepted his responsibilities as the man of the house and now being a father and it makes my heart swell with pride when I watch him with his son. I know he has made good choices thus far in life and I see him on a good path for his family's well being which actually somewhat lowers my stress level and takes some worries away. I listen to coworkers talk about all of the issues with their grown children and it makes me even more proud of my son and the choices he's made along life's journey.

The reason the comment from @bugnut hit so close to home today as last night my wife and I had our annual "checkup" with our financial planner and we had a very lengthy discussion around "legacy" and what it means to me and what he wants for us based on the numbers he was looking at. He was also very persistent in drilling my wife and I on what "we" wanted our retirement to look like and not talk about what we wanted to leave behind. I think he could see the self turmoil I had been going through lately and was very persistent in explaining to my wife and I that we have quite a legacy to leave if you start looking at real estate value as well as liquidity. I keep focusing solely on the liquidity portion and to be honest, I forget about the real estate and everything else that will be left behind. I must also say it is good to take stock every now and then to see where you're at as well as where you want to be. I think too many times people see where they want to be but don't have a "true" account of where they are currently at and then are either unaware or worse, unwilling to make changes to get them where they want to be. It is nice to have someone go through all the numbers and show you a snapshot of where you're at and have it actually match where you think you are in life as it turns into more of a validation process and less of a wake up call.

Now with all that rambling aside, our financial planner said something last night that had a very profound and forceful impact on both my wife and I. He said "do you want to give with warm hands or cold hands?" I will admit that comment stopped us in our tracks and mid-sentence. THAT made so damn much sense to us at that moment that everything else just faded away.

We went to dinner afterwards and talked as well as talked the entire drive home and all we talked about was that comment and what it meant to us. This part is hard to type because I don't want to sound boastful or like I'm bragging, just sharing some of life's show-stopper moments and that was one. I seem to do so much research to see where people of my age are at, what's the medium, where do we fall in terms of demographics, what are people like us doing to move forward, etc. Then last night I realized that there are no two people like us and other people's plan is their plan, not our plan. I need to quit comparing our situation or where we're at in life to anyone else's and more importantly, the fact that we have a plan and we need to stick to OUR plan and the hell with anyone else's plan.

Our snapshot last night proved to me that we are on the right path, we have a well balanced plan between investments, savings and knocking out our last remaining debt, our mortgage. We were shown the pros and cons of what other plans look like when they are too biased towards investments only and not enough on debt reduction and then focused solely on debt reduction but nothing going towards investments and both paths with nothing liquid in savings and it proved to me that our plan is perfect for us and I need to quit worrying about what we're leaving behind and focus more on what is right in front of us.

TIME right now is our most precious commodity and with each and every passing day there is less and less of it even though our liquidity it growing. That is a sobering thought and we came to the conclusion that we want to give experiences and help where we can with warm hands as opposed to leaving a **** ton of money behind when we're dead and gone.

I apologize Bob, for the lengthy post but it seems we've had multiple wonderful exchanges of life's perspectives over the years and with the above comment hitting me so hard this morning I just wanted to thank @bugnut for making that statement and thank you Bob, for our conversations over the years.

I've said it before that I feel like my wife and I are living the American Dream and I hope that everyone can live whatever their version of the American Dream is, but it requires a plan and sometimes those plans require a course correction and we are unwilling to make those corrections or adjustments then we may find out we miss our target. I read something the other day that mentioned the importance of just one degree. It said at 211-degrees water is just hot water, but at 212-degrees it boils and changes state. If we are walking and we are off course by only 1-degree that in one-mile we will be off by more than 90-feet. If the astronauts trying to land on the moon were only off by 1-degree they would have missed the moon by more than 4100 miles. Therefore it is imperative that we stay on course going through life if we are to hit our mark because only one-degree can make a difference. I really liked that statement.

I feel fortunate to be a part of this great community and feel there are many like-minded members who are so very willing to share their knowledge that these discussions go well beyond the walls of our shops or the tools we use.

Mike, I not only don't mind, I welcome the conversations.

I feel blessed that we had two children in quick succession with no complications. I paid the doctors and hospitals out of pocket and would still be paying that off if there had been complications. The doctors charged about $200 and the hospitals charged $360. We had a girl first and a boy second. With no other flavors available, we called it (not the kids) quits.

I took life for granted. When my brother ended his life I thought it was my fault because I didn't recognize the signs. I was angry but I still took my life for granted. Not dying under that train changed things. Suddenly your mortality and how fragile your life is becomes obvious. Driving through an intersection, stepping off a curb or fixing a roof could end all your taken-for-granted plans.

I'm with you on the warm hands approach. I also like the one degree analogy. I've tried to make course corrections along the way when it appeared I was going to miss the landing. I'd prefer landing on dry land rather than up the creek or on the ocean.

My focus is on the near future. I want to do what I can to not be a burden to our children. We have long term care insurance and enough money to live comfortably. Some people want to leave nothing behind and others want to do the opposite. I want to have enough to stay in our home until the end, including enough to pay someone to help us do that and also leave enough behind so our heirs can improve their life a little. I don't want to leave our heirs more than $25.84 million (Estate Tax limit). I don't want them to have to pay the Estate Death Tax.

If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't get anything done. Oh wait, that's not true. My valuable time here is saving me from spending money to get things done. Rats, time here is helping me invest in wonderful tools.

Carry on....

 

[bugnut]

Bob again thanks. @zmotorsports, Mike the analogy of warm hands or cold hands really stuck me as so correct. I never had a financial planner, my sheer understanding of what I need/should do comes from looking back, especially at what went wrong and why, then correcting course and putting one foot in front of the other.

I have used the analogy of money as a hammer, it can be used to make awesome things or it can be used to destroy things.
But I really like warm or cold.

 

[sawduststeve]

Bob, some eloquent and elegant words written above, good work fellas.
I love the “warm hands or cold hands” but the “one degree “ not so much. I’m not that amount of focused sort of guy. More of a, it’ll be ok, something will turn up, and guess what, it always has.
I’ve been self employed since I left school, 1980, never had a proper pay check, but i have worked every week.
I paid off my mortgage when I was 32 and bought a couple of rentals the following year, we also own the workshop.
I don’t think I’m gonna leave much money in the accounts, but Chloe will have a free house, or two

Steve

 

[Matias]

Bob, all I was going to say was that you did good on those front lights, and the most important is to look that you have good UV protection on the clear coat.

However, there is some deep discussions ongoing here... All I can say, my current retirement age is set at 68, and I feel it will still increase a couple of years with our current situation here in Finland. All I can do is try to see if I can help myself with getting a rental(s) to help my jump off earlier.

Also, I think the best I can do related to my kids is to try and get them to learn some financial understanding, and help them buy their own place as soon as possible, as when they own it, then the normal rental money can be then be invested and help grow their own assets.

 

[bugnut]

Hey Bob, on a much different note. Happy Easter, and I hope that when you got your basket the ears were intact on your chocolate rabbit. Blessings sir!

 

[Bob Heine]

Bob again thanks. @zmotorsports, Mike the analogy of warm hands or cold hands really stuck me as so correct. I never had a financial planner, my sheer understanding of what I need/should do comes from looking back, especially at what went wrong and why, then correcting course and putting one foot in front of the other.

I have used the analogy of money as a hammer, it can be used to make awesome things or it can be used to destroy things.
But I really like warm or cold.

@bugnut, you're welcome sir. I keep my investments at Fidelity and somehow they grew large enough to require an advisor. When I took care of it myself things went quite well. The advisor provides me with analyses that sound good but doesn't make sense to me. Only time I have lost significant amounts of my money has been when I take someone else's advice.

Bob, some eloquent and elegant words written above, good work fellas.
I love the “warm hands or cold hands” but the “one degree “ not so much. I’m not that amount of focused sort of guy. More of a, it’ll be ok, something will turn up, and guess what, it always has.
I’ve been self employed since I left school, 1980, never had a proper pay check, but i have worked every week.
I paid off my mortgage when I was 32 and bought a couple of rentals the following year, we also own the workshop.
I don’t think I’m gonna leave much money in the accounts, but Chloe will have a free house, or two

Steve

Steve, I also love the "warm hands or cold hands" analogy. I am probably living proof of the "one degree" analogy. If you make a one degree mistake early in life you can be way off your target decades later. On the other hand, my accident was a bit more than one degree off. My young man plan was to learn all about building hot rods and customs and move to Southern California. That day put me into a career I knew nothing about and had no idea I could do well in it. Pretty sure I'd still be working in a body shop fixing Toyotas if I had stayed on track. I think the most important thing in life is the ability to adapt to changing conditions.

As to the money you leave Chloe, I doubt it will matter. That young lady is going to be successful beyond your wildest dreams. Continue to be nice to her so she takes care of you in your dotage.

Bob, all I was going to say was that you did good on those front lights, and the most important is to look that you have good UV protection on the clear coat.

However, there is some deep discussions ongoing here... All I can say, my current retirement age is set at 68, and I feel it will still increase a couple of years with our current situation here in Finland. All I can do is try to see if I can help myself with getting a rental(s) to help my jump off earlier.

Also, I think the best I can do related to my kids is to try and get them to learn some financial understanding, and help them buy their own place as soon as possible, as when they own it, then the normal rental money can be then be invested and help grow their own assets.

Matias, thank you. I trust the superior UV protection in the SPI (Southern PoIyurethanes, Inc.) clear.

I agree we're having a deep discussion. I always worked hard and expected to die when or soon after I stopped. While I was working I didn't appreciate how important being in the right place at the right moment meant. If my friend hadn't stopped by my office on his way out late that one night, I wouldn't have known Boca Raton was looking for technical writers. If I hadn't worked on a special project, the guy from Boca Raton who interviewed me would have been a stranger. If I hadn't been in a middle management job I would have never seen the request for an experienced technical writer in Australia. Sitting at home and answering a call from a number I didn't recognize led to a job at America Online. Today that call might get through the Robocall blocker but I no longer take calls from numbers I don't recognize.

Sadly, grade, middle and high schools don't teach kids anything about money management. My parents never talked about it so the only way I learned was the school of hard knocks. Not knowing how to balance a checkbook meant a $6 check bounced and the bank was happy to charge me $10. Devastating back then but pretty cheap tuition for Banking 101. Missing a credit card payment cost more than the payment in late fees and interest. Credit card 101 also taught me to go hungry instead of paying the minimum (not the kids go hungry, just me skipping lunch at work).

Hey Bob, on a much different note. Happy Easter, and I hope that when you got your basket the ears were intact on your chocolate rabbit. Blessings sir!

@bugnut, we had a wonderful Easter get-together with the family.

Changed the Cadillac's oil and filter last Sunday so we could use it to drive 75 miles this Sunday. It was 37 months and 1,274 between changes. It's worse than the little old lady who only drove her car on Sundays. This Caddy goes weeks and sometimes months without being driven. There was a little bit of dust on the Caddy so I gave it a cleaning with (Griot's) Spray on Car Wash and a couple of microfiber towels. As always, it hasn't rained in South Florida for more than a month but our clean car drive brought out a shower going and another shower returning. Thankfully it didn't rain on the party.

Celebrated Easter with the family at our son's house. They threw a surprise double baby shower as well. Two more great grandchildren will soon join the mob. No one in the family owns a mansion so the parties that once fit inside a normal house now spill out into the great outdoors. Good thing we're all in South Florida. Since the last party our son put up a 12x14 Costco gazebo in the yard. That helped but there was still a party tent out there. I think the gazebo and party tent warded off the rain but our cleanish car forced Mother Nature to give us strong winds so everyone had to hold down their plates and napkins. The immediate family is 25 strong and parties always include a few significant others and long-time friends. Just saying hello and goodbye takes a good part of the afternoon.

Today I will join the flock of 3D printer owners. Ordered a Creality SLA (resin) printer setup and a few supplies.

 

[Bob Heine]

I finished my income taxes and was pleased. I owe $751. If I'm due a refund it means the government has been holding more of my money than they deserve. I pay estimated tax four times a year and my goal is make the equal payments total last year's total tax. It's best if it's a small amount (less than 10% of the total tax). If I miss by a large amount that means a penalty and interest. The penalty is 5% of the shortfall plus 6% interest.

I send the Treasury electronic checks set to post on the day the payment is due. Not only do they not withhold my money during the year, they do not get the money until the day it's due, April 18th this year.

Speaking of rip-offs, I was prescribed Eliquis to prevent clotting and possible stroke. I have Medicare Part D prescription medicine insurance but my share is still $223.93 a month. I can afford it but my primary care physician suggested I send my prescription to the Canadian Med Center. I contacted them and it turns out they can save me almost $1,900 a year. They offered generic Apixaban and Eliquis, the Bristol-Meyers Squibb brand. The generic is cheaper by a few bucks and has 12 more pills (180 vs 168). Then they told me the drug would be shipped from Turkey. We visited the Roman ruins at Ephesus in southern Turkey back in 1984 and it was reasonably civilized but I was still hesitant. Then I checked the bottle I got from Wallgreens and it says it's a product of Switzerland. Only had a brief layover in Switzerland but it was while flying first class on Swissair. Very tempting to stick with a year's supply of the Swiss pills for $2,724.48. Then I thought about how the money left over after paying only $847.10 for a year's supply of Turkish pills would the 3D printer setup I just bought and the Milwaukee M12 fund and . It's worse than it seems, That ~$224 a month cost is after my Medicare drug plan pays part of the cost of the Swiss pills. Without Medicare or other insurance, Eliquis is $529 a month. There's no insurance helping with the Turkish pills.

 

[kaymccampbell]

Saddening, isn't it? Many drugs, that cost pennies per pill in other countries, are ridiculously expensive here. You can say it's because we get the best stuff. Wrong. Same country of origin, same manufacturer.

 

[Bob Heine]

Saddening, isn't it? Many drugs, that cost pennies per pill in other countries, are ridiculously expensive here. You can say it's because we get the best stuff. Wrong. Same country of origin, same manufacturer.

Kay, it's crazy. I have a prescription for Tadalafil. It's manufactured in India. Walgreens will fill a 20mg 30-pill prescription with my insurance for around $450. Publix will fill the same prescription for $19.95 without using my insurance. My Xolair shots required me to buy Epi pens each year for $263.70. Australians on a pension pay $6.30 AUS ($4.19 US). A visitor to Australia has to pay $52.80.

I can't tell where some of my prescriptions are manufactured because Walgreens puts the pills in their own generic amber bottles but my Rosuvastatin comes in the manufacturer's bottle. The pills are manufactured for Camber (a New Jersey company), by Hetero Labs Limited, its parent company in India. Because my Medicare insurance covers $295.49 of the 90-day supply, I only pay $22.40. The Canadian Med Center can't match that.

It pisses me off that we have to jump through these hoops.

 

[sawduststeve]

Bob, that’s quite some insurance gymnastics, it’s a good job you’re retired.
As a self employed person I pay 9% of earnings to my health care, which is free at point of use.
11% if you’re employed.
Prescriptions are £9.45 for workers like me but free for under 16 and over 70 and the unemployed.
For how much longer , who knows, change is about.

Take care
Regards
Steve

 

[Modern Garage]

Thanks everyone for the comments above about life, finances, and the big picture. It's easy to concentrate on the bad influences of the internet so this is a good reminder of the ability to find good friends and good advice, even if we can't sit down and clink glasses in person.

Re: prescription drug pricing, I have always justified the offset between US and global prices by the claim that expensive research was used to create those drugs so the developers need to recoup those costs somewhere, and the wealthy American economy could afford to subsidize the health of the rest of the world.
That was then, this is now.
With the continued shrinking of the world, and multi-national economic mingling, combined with the news from the last few years describing the worldwide efforts to create vaccines I no longer feel that way. I still feel as the economically advantaged sibling we should help out our world family when possible (without giving away the store) but in spite of using no drugs myself (knock on wood) I now think it's time for some leveling of the international drug price playing field. We've seen criminal amounts of profits in the industry exposed through the Sackler family and Martin Shkreli trial coverage - when do we see the other Sackler and 'Pharma-bro' wannabe's forced into the light?
Joe

 

[Bob Heine]

Bob, that’s quite some insurance gymnastics, it’s a good job you’re retired.
As a self employed person I pay 9% of earnings to my health care, which is free at point of use.
11% if you’re employed.
Prescriptions are £9.45 for workers like me but free for under 16 and over 70 and the unemployed.
For how much longer , who knows, change is about.

Take care
Regards
Steve

Steve, back in 1962 most jobs didn't include health insurance so we paid the doctor out of pocket for maternity care. Same with the hospital for the delivery. The doctor cost about $200 for 7 months of care and being in the delivery room. The hospital was $360. My weekly income was $60 - $100, depending on the number of jobs I worked - one totaled $60 and three totaled $100.

When I was self employed I paid 15.3% of earnings for Social Security and Medicare. It's 7.65% if you work for someone (who pays 7.65% as well). Now that I'm retired Social Security pays me and Medicare Parts A&B cover 80% of my medical costs (except prescriptions). Prescriptions are covered by private Medicare Part D plans and the amount they cover varies all over the place, as does the premium that goes with that coverage. I pay another private insurance company to take care of the 20% Medicare A&B doesn't cover. One drug I was taking (Xolair) cost $9,000 a month for two shots if you didn't have insurance, $2,400 under Medicare and $480 co-pay that was paid by the extra insurance. I filed my taxes last week and had $25,000 in medical deductions between the two of us (we had some 'minor' dental work done).

One recent overnight hospital stay would have cost a year's income if I didn't have insurance.

Thanks everyone for the comments above about life, finances, and the big picture. It's easy to concentrate on the bad influences of the internet so this is a good reminder of the ability to find good friends and good advice, even if we can't sit down and clink glasses in person.

Re: prescription drug pricing, I have always justified the offset between US and global prices by the claim that expensive research was used to create those drugs so the developers need to recoup those costs somewhere, and the wealthy American economy could afford to subsidize the health of the rest of the world.
That was then, this is now.
With the continued shrinking of the world, and multi-national economic mingling, combined with the news from the last few years describing the worldwide efforts to create vaccines I no longer feel that way. I still feel as the economically advantaged sibling we should help out our world family when possible (without giving away the store) but in spite of using no drugs myself (knock on wood) I now think it's time for some leveling of the international drug price playing field. We've seen criminal amounts of profits in the industry exposed through the Sackler family and Martin Shkreli trial coverage - when do we see the other Sackler and 'Pharma-bro' wannabe's forced into the light?
Joe

Joe, thanks for visiting my weird corner of the GJ.

If the drugs sold in the United States were all developed and manufactured here there might be some justification for higher prices but many of these drugs are developed and manufactured in other countries. The Eliquis I take is manufactured in Turkey, where the The average monthly salary is about 7,830 Turkish Liras ($420.08 USD).

The CEOs (Chief Executive Officers) of the top 15 drug companies have salaries in the $1,500,000 neighborhood. In addition to salaries, they all get performance bonuses, stock options and use of private company jets. Alex Gorsky, CEO of Johnson & Johnson, received a total compensation package of $26,274,000 in 2022. Kenneth Frazier, CEO of Merck & Co. is at the bottom of the 15-company barrel and has to scrape by on $15,200,000. The rest of the executives receive smaller pay packages but way more than the average worker in the company. Drug company CEOs make about 400 times more than their average employee.

Those stock options can be gold mines. Moderna stock was selling for $19 a share three weeks after the first COVID-19 case was confirmed in a man from Washington State on January 21, 2020. On September 10, 2021 Moderna stock was selling for $449.38 a share. Moderna CEO Stephane Bancel sold about 2.8 million shares for approximately $408 million ($146 average per share). You would think that was his whole nest egg because Moderna’s COVID vaccine remains the biotech company’s only commercially available product. The shots have made Bancel a billionaire with an estimated net worth of more than $5.3 billion in company equity alone — based on his reported holdings as of March 1, 2022.

I am not aware of any of the $1,000,000,000.00 (I prefer showing a $1 Billion that way) grant the US government paid Moderna to develop its vaccine being paid back. Our tax dollars paid that along with another $1,500,000,000.00 for the actual coronavirus vaccine shots ordered by the U.S. government (also our tax dollars).

I believe companies should be rewarded for risking their money to develop new products and I don't think they should be punished for making a profit but I do feel like we've been serviced (in the animal husbandry sense).