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Body Shop Advice

lkempf

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
71
Location
Indiana
I know this isn't exactly a garage subject but I thought I would just throw it out there. I recently took my 70 Challenger to a restoration shop to have the paint and bodywork done. They told me it was finished yesterday so I went to go look at it. I was really disappointed in the final product. I could see blocking sanding marks all over the place. The car is shiny but has a wavy looking paint job. Not bodywork waves but paint or clear coat waves. I refused to take it like that but I'm not really sure what to do about it now. I'm amazed that they are calling this a good paint job that they are satisfied with. I've seen some of their other work and it looked better than this. Otherwise i never would have taken it there.

If anyone has ever been through this please give me some advice. How do you deal with unsatisfactory work?
 
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shoot summ

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Jun 8, 2010
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2,952
My story is a long, drawn out one, I will try to distill it for you, the net of it is, give them a shot to fix it, if they don't get it, then go somewhere else.

There is a local shop that has the slogan "We make it look like new". Always see some high end cars there so they have to be good, right?

Took an S2000 there to be repaired after my son backed into it. The way they would try to deliver the car was laughable. One time we showed up, our car was prominently displayed on their showroom floor, with a massive scratch above the headlight. Visible from 30' when I walked in the door. "Looks great, ready to go" was the comment from the Manager...

After 12 tries to get it fixed properly, I gave up, they basically ruined the car. They painted the front bumper cover so many times that the paint was cracking in the corners of the headlight valleys. I bought a new cover, and took the car to another shop to have it painted properly.

All that to say, if they couldn't see the poor workmanship on the car the first time, it is unlikely it will ever get better.
 

Bill Bowman

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Mar 28, 2007
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3,147
Location
Metro Chicago
If the shop couldn't get it right the first time (when they were getting $$), how much effort are they going to put into a free re-repair?
 

ard

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Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
4,391
Location
Sierra Foothills... California
First, I lay out explicit expectations with the shop. In fact, I 'offer' to come by at various stages to inspect, as it will reduce the odds that ...well...exactly what happened to you. I'm up front- 'look, I don't want to be surprised- and I am sure you don't- this will just save us both potential aggravation'....Shop that does a bunch of work for me is OK with it... On my 996TT I was trying to get the same amount of orange peel on the repainted bumper as the OE paint. Might as well inspect when they are buffing as opposed to after it is re-assembled!

Here's the thing- in general consumer are absoulte idiots when it comes to paint. They will look at a shiny car; listen to the oohs and ahhs of the shop guy, and think 'wow looks great'. 90% have no clue ...so as a result can you blame shops that are used to working for idiots?

It's a fine line though- I've had shops decline work, usually bigger chains.

If you pick up the car take a witness; take pictures ON THEIR PROPERTY; document every defect; WRITE THE DEFECTS ON THE RECEIPT. You want to try and create a documentary trail in case you need it. Think of it along the lines of "If I needed to hand a pile of paper to someone to make a decision who is not a body shop guy, what would I need?"

We also don't know what $$ you are talking about. 2500? 15,000?

Id give them ONE chance to fix. But I'd insist on inspections during the process.
 

IMXCITD

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Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
193
Location
Virginia
I am hoping you only gave a deposit. Under no circumstances pay any more money. Next...try to discuss w the manager. Next...maybe take an independent source w you to look at the car and make notes and have a meeting w the shop manager. Document everything. If it doesn't get moving...pull it out and go elsewhere.
 
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lkempf

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Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
71
Location
Indiana
I haven't paid the full amount yet.. They bill as it progresses and I haven't paid the final bill. Without getting specific it is over $20k. Not all paint there was some panels replaced. The only thing in the contract that mentions quality is "best of their ability" which i guess this is it. Now they are saying "restoration" and "show car" as the paint job quality. Wish i had that in writing. The more i think about it i guess I got screwed and am probably just going to have to live with it. Live and Learn.
 

brownbagg

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Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
problem is, you either pay them or they keep the car, they can make mega cash on a 70 challenger
 
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Bill Bowman

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Joined
Mar 28, 2007
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3,147
Location
Metro Chicago
OP: Sounds as though you're paying for time and material as they complete work. Are you just paying for their "artistic license", and if you aren't happy with a result, they bill you again for more "artistic license"? That could be a slippery slope.
 

carnutdallas

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Nov 6, 2013
Messages
141
I haven't paid the full amount yet.. They bill as it progresses and I haven't paid the final bill. Without getting specific it is over $20k. Not all paint there was some panels replaced. The only thing in the contract that mentions quality is "best of their ability" which i guess this is it. Now they are saying "restoration" and "show car" as the paint job quality. Wish i had that in writing. The more i think about it i guess I got screwed and am probably just going to have to live with it. Live and Learn.



I own a successful collision center. Very picky about restoration work I do if any. @ $20k you should be happy and should not see “foundation” work.... but I will say that $20k for some projects is not nearly enough depending on what they started with. Lots of factors. I charge in stages and we do not move on until client is satisfied, they pay and we go to next stage.

Good luck. It can be fixed. Most people do not realize what it takes to do it right and the money. Most Pebble Beach work is $100k plus


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BRENT in 10-uh-C

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Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
212
Location
Tennessee
As the owner of a large vintage automobile restoration shop, allow me to weigh in a little. To begin with, ...all is not lost at this point, but there are some things you need to discuss and you potentially need a 3rd party mediator.

The part about the paint being wavy is because they used the buffer with a heavy compound instead of block-sanding (wet-sanding) up to a minimum of 3000 grit before touching it. For the record, on our concours paint, we actually use 5000 grit. My point is it is likely fixable to a certain extent, but let me move on.

Approach the shop with a rational & calm demeanor and explain that you have seen other restored vehicles that do not have the sand scratch marks, so ask them 'Do they feel they can do better?'. If they say No, then just share with them that new vehicles do not have those marks nor do other vehicles coming out of your shop, so is it truly the 'best of their ability"?

Now as far as the marks go, I would probably hand block (-not a DA) each panel on the entire paint job with 240 grit to get under the clear, and then gravitate to 320 and then 400 grit until we are down to the top of the primer substrates. The reason you do not want to just block-sand the top-coat is the Mil thickness will be too great which will make it prone to chipping. Get it back down to the substrates. When they get to this point, you want to come inspect the work. The best way we have found to inspect on fine-point concours is to use a florescent drop light to inspect the finish. We load a spray gun with Wax & Grease Remover and spray a coat onto the panel to make it wet. The portable lamp will hi-light imperfections where they can be noted and corrected. The easiest way to note them is to use 3M 5861 guidecoat and just daub a little over that area. Then come back and block that area again and repeat the Wax & Grease spray.

I hope this has helped some. It honestly is not the end of the world. Most people just do not realize that while a restoration shop and a collision shop both paint automobiles, there is night & day difference between the two methods. Most shops that do concours level of paintwork do not give estimates. If this shop did, that may be where the trouble originated since they realized they underbid and were just trying to rush the job. And for the record, with heavy sheetmetal work and other things besides paint, $20k may be light on costs in today's market. Changing quarters and/or doing heavy floor panel replacement to a concours-level can easily take half of that $20k on some vehicles.
 
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lkempf

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Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
71
Location
Indiana
Thanks to everyone for the advice. Still not 100% sure what I’m going to do. If I take it I’m stuck with it but at least they can’t screw it up any more. Hopefully someone else can Fix their mistakes. Bodywork is actually good just block sanding marks and poor cut and buff.
 

Vintage Veloce

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Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,076
Location
San Diego
Well, here is my opinion... Talk to THE BOSS/OWNER: And if he immediately owns up to the problem, is very apologetic and demands an opportunity to make it right... you might get somewhere with them.

But, if you have to push at all to get them to understand the problem, it's probably hopeless. If they are competent body guys, they see every detail better than you. And if they think it's OK... well, it's hopeless. You can't make them want to fix it.

If you negotiate an exit from the shop with a reduced payment, make sure you get a "paid in full" lein release.
 

HotrodHR

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Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
445
Location
North Alabama
If you're seeing block sanding marks under the basecoat/clearcoat (primer, substrate prep) then no amount of cutting and buffing will fix it. If the marks are in the clearcoat then someone needs to go back and re-do the cut and buff, and as stated above clearcoat finessed up to 3000 grit before cutting and buffing.

BTW, what color is the car and how about some pics?
 
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