Bonding gas line?

[PCustoms]

A recent post about grounding made me think of this.

Propane tank feeds regulator at house via plastic coated copper, then all piping is black iron. This is not bonded/grounded anywhere.

I assume it needs to be?

Never thought about it when I replaced the corroded, uncoated copper that went thru concrete wall to a regulator mounted (and vented!) indoors. Was kind of focused on other things...

 

[larry4406]

Not sure what your AHJ requires.

Here, if black iron pipe, then the piping is considered grounded since it is screwed into the appliances which are grounded. We don’t add a ground wire.

If CSST (), then we run a ground wire outside where it connects to the meter/gas rack.

——/////

Replace “ground” with “bond” please.

 

[PCustoms]

Not sure what your AHJ requires.

Me either

What code typically covers this, NEC, plumbing, gas?

Here, if black iron pipe, then the piping is considered grounded since it is screwed into the appliances which are grounded. We don’t add a ground wire.

Thinking about it now, the coated copper gets the plastic stripped at the flare, so that is bonded from table to regulator, where it switches to black iron. The stove and H2O heater are connected with a section of flexible line, so probably not bonded there, but the appliances certainly are grounded. The furnace is connected via 1/2" copper line and also has an electrical ground.

If CSST ()

Agreed

 

[larry4406]

Me either

What code typically covers this, NEC, plumbing, gas?



Thinking about it now, the coated copper gets the plastic stripped at the flare, so that is bonded from table to regulator, where it switches to black iron. The stove and H2O heater are connected with a section of flexible line, so probably not bonded there, but the appliances certainly are grounded. The furnace is connected via 1/2" copper line and also has an electrical ground.



Agreed

Our inspectors look for the black iron hard pipe to furnaces and WH.

They don’t count flex lines at cooktops for example as bonded via screwed method.

 

[PCustoms]

Our inspectors look for the black iron hard pipe to furnaces and WH.

They don’t count flex lines at cooktops for example as bonded via screwed method.

Yeah I wasn't subject to inspection.

I did pay a well regarded, licensed, gas plumber to do my flares and pressure test. Was cheaper then buying the flare tool and good piece of mind.

 

[larry4406]

I’ve asked my inspectors on their thoughts of black iron gas piping being bonded multiple times via screwing into 2 water heaters and 4 gas furnaces.

Told them I thought bonding was a single point thing.

They just look at me with deer in headlights look and walk away.

 

[Firebrick43]

The piping in the house is to be bonded via #6 wire. NEC 250.104(B)

The piping from the tank to the second stage regulator is not to be bonded. If one works on a system with copper pipe or installs new copper pipe, they are actually required by the gas code to put in dielectric unions or pigtails to isolate the piping from the tank and house to prevent galvanic corrosion.

• NFPA 58 6.9.3.16
  • Underground metallic piping, tubing, or both that convey LP-Gas from a storage container shall be provided with dielectric fittings at the building to electrically isolate it from the aboveground portion of the fixed piping system that enters a building. Such dielectric fittings shall be installed above ground and outdoors.

 

[mm08822]

Me either

What code typically covers this, NEC, plumbing, gas?



Thinking about it now, the coated copper gets the plastic stripped at the flare, so that is bonded from table to regulator, where it switches to black iron. The stove and H2O heater are connected with a section of flexible line, so probably not bonded there, but the appliances certainly are grounded. The furnace is connected via 1/2" copper line and also has an electrical ground.



Agreed

NEC 250.104 3B The "likely to become energized" wording seems to back-pedal on the initial wording. It is a good practice to bond it.

Hopefully you sleeved the new copper going through the masonry wall.

 

[Firebrick43]

NEC 250.104 3B The "likely to become energized" wording seems to back-pedal on the initial wording. It is a good practice to bond it.

Hopefully you sleeved the new copper going through the masonry wall.

As stated above, NFPA 58 6.9.3.16 requires the out side piping to be electrically isolated from the inside piping. That has been since the 2011 edition and Vermont has adopted the 2014 version of NFPA 58 as code.

https://firesafety.vermont.gov/sites/firesafety/files/documents/dfs_codesheet_codes _0.pdf

 

[mm08822]

Our inspectors look for the black iron hard pipe to furnaces and WH.

They don’t count flex lines at cooktops for example as bonded via screwed method.

I would not consider flex lines as acceptable either. For hard-piped connections to electrically connected units I would say its as a good as conduit.

I’ve asked my inspectors on their thoughts of black iron gas piping being bonded multiple times via screwing into 2 water heaters and 4 gas furnaces.

Told them I thought bonding was a single point thing.

They just look at me with deer in headlights look and walk away.

NEC 250.104 3B does state bonded to service enclosure, grounded conductor at the service (meter), and grounding electrode conductor. Any of those attachments I would expect done once and nothing else required. My thinking is these methods are at the point of entry of the gas piping.

Then it goes on to say bonded using the grounding conductor of the circuit likely to energize the piping. This being at the point of usage. I'm not liking this one, b/c someone could remove the gas appliance (switch to electric) and leave the entire metal system unbonded.

 

[PCustoms]

Hopefully you sleeved the new copper going through the masonry wall.

Went through the rim joist.

I'll have to check when I'm back at the house, the plumber made the outdoor connection Soni bet there's a dielectric.

 

[mm08822]

As stated above, NFPA 58 6.9.3.16 requires the out side piping to be electrically isolated from the inside piping. That has been since the 2011 edition and Vermont has adopted the 2014 version of NFPA 58 as code.

https://firesafety.vermont.gov/sites/firesafety/files/documents/dfs_codesheet_codes _0.pdf

I'm talking about the premises piping.....anything within the building. NFPA 54 3.14 (1999) required bonding of "aboveground portions". So I assume similar for LP.

Isolating the piping allows the interior to be bonded while not including the exterior piping creating an unintentional grounding electrode.

 

[larry4406]

Washington Gas, the local monopoly says this

 

[mm08822]

Washington Gas, the local monopoly says this

As long as your connections are on the house side of their isolating fitting, everyone is happy.

 

[larry4406]

As long as your connections are on the house side of their isolating fitting, everyone is happy.

And here only required if CSST if used.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I’ve asked my inspectors on their thoughts of black iron gas piping being bonded multiple times via screwing into 2 water heaters and 4 gas furnaces.

Told them I thought bonding was a single point thing.

They just look at me with deer in headlights look and walk away.

do any of these appliances use flex lines from a shut off valve? if so i would not consider that to be a good bond. almost all gas appliances here in cali use flex lines from a shut off valve to the appliance mostly due to earthquakes.

i also would not want bonding to rely on the grounding prongs of appliances for bonding in the case of hard piped appliances. what happens if the appliances are switched out for electric versions? why not just bond the gas line at the load side of the meter (for NG) or where the tank line comes into the building like the NEC requires w/ #6 and be done with it?

 

[larry4406]

do any of these appliances use flex lines from a shut off valve? if so i would not consider that to be a good bond. almost all gas appliances here in cali use flex lines from a shut off valve to the appliance mostly due to earthquakes.

i also would not want bonding to rely on the grounding prongs of appliances for bonding in the case of hard piped appliances. what happens if the appliances are switched out for electric versions? why not just bond the gas line at the load side of the meter (for NG) or where the tank line comes into the building like the NEC requires w/ #6 and be done with it?

They don’t count flex lines as bonded.

Gas furnaces are hard piped and direct wired. But when you have multiple hard piped gas furnaces that are direct wired isn’t that multiple points of grounding bonding? Then if you were to add a ground bond wire and clamp another point of grounding bonding.

I don’t know.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

They don’t count flex lines as bonded.

Gas furnaces are hard piped and direct wired. But when you have multiple hard piped gas furnaces that are direct wired isn’t that multiple points of grounding? Then if you were to add a ground wire and clamp another point of grounding.

I don’t know.

I have never seen hard piped appliances here in cali but maybe its because its earthquake country. we just bond the piping on the load side of the meter before it enters the building.

and FYI its considered bonding not grounding

 

[larry4406]

I have never seen hard piped appliances here in cali but maybe its because its earthquake country. we just bond the piping on the load side of the meter before it enters the building.

and FYI its considered bonding not grounding

Flex lines make sense for earth quake areas.

I corrected the post to bonding vs grounding.

 

[Jim greengo]

A recent post about grounding made me think of this.

Propane tank feeds regulator at house via plastic coated copper, then all piping is black iron. This is not bonded/grounded anywhere.

I assume it needs to be?

Never thought about it when I replaced the corroded, uncoated copper that went thru concrete wall to a regulator mounted (and vented!) indoors. Was kind of focused on other things...

If you use that yellow/trac pipe ****,definitely bond it.

 

[PCustoms]

If you use that yellow/trac pipe ****,definitely bond it.

I thought I explained everything i used in my OP that you quoted, can you elaborate?

 

[dscheidt]

I thought I explained everything unused in my OP that you quoted, can you elaborate?

CSST will rupture if it carries lightning current (this is one of the reasons there are places that do not allow it, not just plumber political pressure). Most people consider gas pipe ruturing in the presence of high heat and sparks undesirable. So all CSST needs to be bonded, and really it should be done in multiple places.

 

[PCustoms]

CSST will rupture if it carries lightning current (this is one of the reasons there are places that do not allow it, not just plumber political pressure). Most people consider gas pipe ruturing in the presence of high heat and sparks undesirable. So all CSST needs to be bonded, and really it should be done in multiple places.

And where did I say I used csst?