Bonding tapes for metal building cladding

[Deude_Mann]

So I searched and found a few tangents but nothing that seemed to cover this topic exactly. Here is what I am wondering about:

Within the next month or two I will start construction on a metal building, specifically a Mueller 30'x40' Standard Garage building. It will be built on and bolted to a concrete slab.

Now I know a gazillion of these have been successfully deployed using the standard methods of assembly and they are fine. However, when I think about all of the holes that need to be drilled and all of those screws that need to go in, and all of those potential rust/leak sites that are created in the process, I wonder if there is a better and maybe easier way.

Some of you may be familiar with structural tapes such as the VHB type that 3M makes for building construction. Basically these tapes are used in lieu of panel fasteners to attach the outer panels onto some very serious buildings, like the iconic Walt Disney Theater in LA, and specifically on large (huge) metal and glass panels that would otherwise be clamped/riveted/screwed/welded onto the structure. Therefore I am thinking that it would be just fine for my comparatively little metal building.

The way I would use it would be to replace most or all of the screws that are used to attach the wall and roof panels onto the steel structure; the structure itself would still be bolted together, aligned, and braced in the conventional manner. I also plan to have the interior walls and ceiling sprayed with a couple of inches or more of closed cell foam which will add additional bonding between the panels and the wall/roof purlins. I am thinking with the right tape, and the spray foam, there is no way the panels are coming off short of a very catastrophic event, like a tornado, in which case I am screwed anyway, no pun intended.

I have been looking around and so far have not seen much mention of anyone using this method of construction for metal buildings. I am in the R&D business so to me that does not necessarily mean it is a bad idea, just a relatively new one. Has anyone seen or used structural tape adhesives or even two-part adhesives (like from caulk tubes) to bond a metal building together in this manner? Again this is 'the good stuff' and not the double sided foam tape or standard construction adhesives you can get from a big box store.

I plan on speaking to a 3M applications engineer but am looking around for some examples that are closer to what I want to do compared to say a billion dollar skyscraper in some exotic location.

Thanks

 

[Bert_]

If you don't want exposed fasteners then there are other products for that.

If you want ribbed metal panels then attach them with screws.

 

[matt_i]

I think it will work but be at (noticeable, considerably) higher cost.

The bond strength built up over many square inches can be pretty high.

 

[readhead]

Having erected many metal buildings and also worked with the tape on other projects I wouldn’t even consider it. I’ve built several signs with tape because the warping from welding on the faces would be unacceptable. It is a great product and the holding power is remarkable but it requires clamping to achieve complete bonding. I can’t even imagine the amount of time that would be involved and the tape is very expensive. You would need thousands of feet.

I think your imagination is overthinking the hole and rust issue. Can it be done? Of course it can but at what cost. What will happen the first time a sheet goes on crooked and you ruin the sheet getting it off? How much extra material do you order? You wouldn’t be able to stretch or shrink any sheets and that is a common practice. How do you slide a sheet behind some window or door trim? Normal insulation is out of the question so a more expensive insulation system will be required. I could go on but I think you see where this is going.

 

[Deude_Mann]

Readhead thanks! That is the sort of input I was looking for, from someone who knows both systems. All good points above:
I agree the elimination of holes for rust prevention is probably not a primary consideration since there are easier ways to address that. Plus rust is not that big a deal from what I have seen/read.
I have also not added up the cost of the tape so I could be in for some major sticker shock. Screws are cheap.
Your points on installation and rework are good ones; those are all pretty important.

 

[welder57]

Spray insulation is not the way to go on insulating your building. Most building suppliers will tell you the warranty on the panels will be voided if it's applied to the panels. Just wanted you to know this ahead of time.

 

[kbs2244]

Plus there is the question of thermal expansion/contraction.
After a cold soak on a winter the east side is going to want to grow when hit by the sun.

 

[Deude_Mann]

Spray insulation is not the way to go on insulating your building. Most building suppliers will tell you the warranty on the panels will be voided if it's applied to the panels. Just wanted you to know this ahead of time.

This is one really hotly debated topic it seems. I personally know people that used it on their metal buildings (in my region) and think it is fantastic. Others indicate what you have above, or point out the fire related hazards with it, VOCs from incorrect installations, etc.

Mueller from what I know does not void the warranty when using spray foam insulation. I discussed it specifically with the salesman when I placed my order. It is also not mentioned in their warranty.

 

[Deude_Mann]

Plus there is the question of thermal expansion/contraction.
After a cold soak on a winter the east side is going to want to grow when hit by the sun.

Another fair point. The expense of the tape and the rework issue pretty much killed the bonding idea for me.

 

[readhead]

I have repaired some metal buildings with spray foam and it wasn’t pretty. Girts completely rusted through, bolts rusted to the point they had to be burned out, large holes in the sheeting. The worst part is removing the foam to get to the repair work. One time it took two guys two and a half days to replace one sheet. I write in my contracts that all warranties are void if spray foam is installed.

It is a shame because it is a great product and does a fantastic job. The problem is that it is a slow moving killer. Most of the problems I see are from foam sprayed ten plus years ago. But I have seen damage after three years. It usually shows up as small rust spots on the sheeting and gets ignored as rust from paint damage when it is actually coming through from the inside.

 

[SWR_Jonathan]

Hey Deude,

How do you think spray insulation would do in South Florida metal building??

 

[pmiranda]

I'm doing a mueller building with sprayfoam but doing a housewrap to separate the foam from the skin. Mostly because of the rework issue. I'm doing their standing seam roof panels. There will be no holes anywhere in the roof unless I make them For the walls, screws are way easier to deal with and I'm not as worried about leaks.

 

[readhead]

Pmiranda, talk to the foam company about spraying on house wrap. It is a good idea and I know it will stick but I have seen cases where the wrap can't support the foam and it sags or falls out.

 

[pmiranda]

Good tip. If they have concerns about the weight, I wouldn't mind adding some extra blocking between the girts to support attaching other stuff to the walls anyway.

 

[welder57]

Remember guys, the standing seam roof moves, so if it moves, something is not going to hold fast like a screw down roof, unless you have fixed clips.

 

[readhead]

On standing seam one end is supposed to be fixed so all the expansion is in one direction. Can be top or bottom. Clips are designed to move.

 

[kbs2244]

Isn't there going to be any left to right expansion?
Or do the seams slide to take it up?

 

[pmiranda]

Not as much as end-to-end of the seam. I'm guessing this works better for glass than for thin sheet metal.

 

[readhead]

We are talking a very narrow panel. Between the laps and most panels have some convolutions it isn't a problem.

 

[Deude_Mann]

Hey Deude,

How do you think spray insulation would do in South Florida metal building??

I am really not an expert on the topic. The main thing I would worry about in Florida would be how close I am to the beach and the resulting salty air. This is a metal killer along the Texas coast, even when someone is several miles inshore. Humidity is also an issue to consider, and like Florida, there is plenty of it in South Texas.

 

[Deude_Mann]

I'm doing a mueller building with sprayfoam but doing a housewrap to separate the foam from the skin. Mostly because of the rework issue. I'm doing their standing seam roof panels. There will be no holes anywhere in the roof unless I make them For the walls, screws are way easier to deal with and I'm not as worried about leaks.

Interesting... Are the roof purlins (?) the same design as with a standard metal roof?

Also, I was wondering the same thing mentioned above about support issues when spraying foam over housewrap. The other thing I wonder about is the resulting gap between the housewrap and the underside of the roof panel (due to the corrugation) whereas spraying foam directly onto the roof panel does not leave a gap. It seems like the housewrap gap could trap moisture.

I think the thread is drifting so apologies if that's a problem

 

[pmiranda]

I think the purlin spacing can be greater than with standard panels since the standing seam adds alot of strength and I think only come in 24 gauge. I can't find a manual for standard panel installation on metal... only plywood or 1x4 wood, but on the MLK standing seam the purlin spacing is 4 or 5 feet, depending on wind load. I'm not doing the install so I haven't spent a ton of time looking at it.

 

[Deude_Mann]

As a follow-up I purchased a Mueller metal building and it was assembled using the conventional screw-together method. I hired a contractor to do the assembly (slab was already in) and they knocked it out in two days with four guys and two scissor lifts. It was a good crew and they knew what they were doing.