Botched or normal epoxy system install?

[ropese]

Hi all,

Live in New England. We had our 1+ garage floor done in November. It was below 50 degrees during the project. The 20-25 year slab was in rough shape (craters, chips, curdling/bumps all over) and so compared to what it used to look like - night and day. This contractor works with National Polymers epoxy systems and Torginol brand flakes. Before they started the owner said I could choose whatever flakes/color I wanted from Torginol and just email him the code below the picture. In retrospect, I should have just gone with one the samples the owner showed me in person. Without asking more questions, I went to the website and to the page that has ALL palette color options/color combinations on one page. We wanted something understated and simple. I didn’t know that you really have choose a multi color flake combo. What my wife and I ended up choosing is single flake color. To us it looked like multiple shades of gray flakes.

On the exterior portion of the slab, there was some miscommunication between the owner and the actual crew and they did the base coat with clear coat on top, no flakes. Owner told me they would do clear coat only.

I see 5-6 small fish eyes/inverted blister-like imperfections. Are some imperfections normal? The owner told me that had we chose a multi color flake system the imperfections would be hidden. Are these imperfections from the prep work?

I had them do the vertical stem wall/curb on the sides. On the side with the concrete curb there is excess clear coat on the floor in front of the curb. See pic. I understand verticals are tricky and even not supported/warranties by manufacturer.

They also covered the base of the garage door metal track (see pics) and the exterior garage door PVC trim. What if we want or need to replace the garage door?

 

[Armorpoxy]

The door hardware can easily be replaced if needed. Correct that a single color makes imperfections worse. It’s hard to tell what the imperfections are from.

The bigger issue we see is that is the floor rough? It doesn’t look like the full broadcast was scraped well to smooth out before they clear coated.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

The door hardware can easily be replaced if needed. Correct that a single color makes imperfections worse. It’s hard to tell what the imperfections are from.

The bigger issue we see is that is the floor rough? It doesn’t look like the full broadcast was scraped well to smooth out before they clear coated.

Agreed, huge error to do a single color. Even the most perfect of floors will look terrible. Try to work out a deal to re-do.




Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[kngelv]

Wow! That is a lot of flakes. I know it ***** but I would either completely redo it or put some tile down. They did a poor job with the flake distribution and the clear coat.

James

 

[kram71]

Wow! That is a lot of flakes. I know it ***** but I would either completely redo it or put some tile down. They did a poor job with the flake distribution and the clear coat.

James

Is it all the flakes that gives the rough appearance?

 

[ropese]

First, I appreciate the replies. Its hard not to not get upset at the finished product I paid for and at myself now. Anyway, yes, ItÂ’s pretty much all flakes. I didnÂ’t even think to ask the installer for his opinion on the color choice. He just asked me to let him know which color we liked and so I emailed him the code a few weeks prior to him starting. There were certainly flake combos we would have been happy with too.

The surface is certainly textured but itÂ’s not rough. It seems to be uniform throughout. A rough smoothness, if you will. I assume itÂ’s built in anti skid.

 

[ropese]

Why would a complete redo be necessary? Wow

 

[kram71]

First, I appreciate the replies. Its hard not to not get upset at the finished product I paid for and at myself now. Anyway, yes, ItÂ’s pretty much all flakes. I didnÂ’t even think to ask the installer for his opinion on the color choice. He just asked me to let him know which color we liked and so I emailed him the code a few weeks prior to him starting. There were certainly flake combos we would have been happy with too.

The surface is certainly textured but itÂ’s not rough. It seems to be uniform throughout. A rough smoothness, if you will. I assume itÂ’s built in anti skid.

Please do not be upset with yourself. You are trying to make a nice garage for yourself. We all are doing that. Sometimes things do not come out they way we hoped. It is not something to beat yourself up about. My hope is that the original installer can work with you in a reasonable way to get it more to your liking. The installer is the professional. You are not so its crazy to be upset with yourself.

 

[kram71]

By the way when I used the word rough I was just repeating it from a previous post. Maybe that was bad on my part. I did not mean rough to the touch. It just looks like the whole thing is covered in more flakes than I am used to seeing in an epoxy floor. I apologize if I used the wrong word.

 

[ropese]

By the way when I used the word rough I was just repeating it from a previous post. Maybe that was bad on my part. I did not mean rough to the touch. It just looks like the whole thing is covered in more flakes than I am used to seeing in an epoxy floor. I apologize if I used the wrong word.

Oh, no reason to apologize. I know what you meant. If you look in the corners around the garage metal hardware, you can see clumps of flakes. The rest of the floor is evened out and it has a rough smoothness to it. Now, I am not sure if by over flaking it they had to compensate by putting a thicker layer of clear coat, making the overall epoxy floor system thicker. I can’t imagine what it would take to remove all of it and start from scratch.

 

[ropese]

Thank you, kram. I appreciate it.

 

[kram71]

Thank you, kram. I appreciate it.

We are both in the same boat. Just 2 guys that want nice garages. Your floor looks much better than mine. I get the feeling it may look much better if the pictures were not taken so close up. Any chance we can see a non closeup shot?

 

[ropese]

Free

We are both in the same boat. Just 2 guys that want nice garages. Your floor looks much better than mine. I get the feeling it may look much better if the pictures were not taken so close up. Any chance we can see a non closeup shot?

Often we think things are worse than they really are. I am not familiar with your install but I’m sure it’s not as bad as you think.

Here are a few more pictures.

 

[kram71]

Often we think things are worse than they really are. I am not familiar with your install but I’m sure it’s not as bad as you think.

Here are a few more pictures.

Wow the non close up looks really nice. I understand your concerns but the non closeup is something you can smile about in my opinion.

Mine is just plain concrete with a few discolorations for now. I was going to do epoxy but I'm leaning towards tiles in part because I do not want to do so much work or have my cars outside for days.

 

[ropese]

Wow the non close up looks really nice. I understand your concerns but the non closeup is something you can smile about in my opinion.

Mine is just plain concrete with a few discolorations for now. I was going to do epoxy but I'm leaning towards tiles in part because I do not want to do so much work or have my cars outside for days.

Thank you. So you were thinking to DIY? If all you have is some discoloration, then the concrete prep might not be too bad at all. Probably don’t have to do a significant amount of grinding/smoothening. How big is your garage? If you go with a contractor, it can all be done in 1-2 days.

My slab was in rough shape. 20-25+ years old and showed all the signs - discoloration, cratering/pitting, bumpy as in the concrete had actually started to kinda curdle. I’m not handy or savvy enough. I am also paranoid about causing irreparable damage. For me the biggest pain related to the project was clearing out my garage beforehand. I also didn’t want to risk damaging the finishing product so I kept my stuff outside a couple extra days before bringing it back in.

 

[ropese]

Knowing I could have easily hidden the imperfections is a big kicker. In retrospect, I wish he would have provided a disclaimer or warning and/or let me know what I choose was sub-optimal beforehand. Or just had me choose from a specific collection or sample in which the options were all multi-flake.

 

[kram71]

Thank you. So you were thinking to DIY? If all you have is some discoloration, then the concrete prep might not be too bad at all. Probably don’t have to do a significant amount of grinding/smoothening. How big is your garage? If you go with a contractor, it can all be done in 1-2 days.

My slab was in rough shape. 20-25+ years old and showed all the signs - discoloration, cratering/pitting, bumpy as in the concrete had actually started to kinda curdle. I’m not handy or savvy enough. I am also paranoid about causing irreparable damage. For me the biggest pain related to the project was clearing out my garage beforehand. I also didn’t want to risk damaging the finishing product so I kept my stuff outside a couple extra days before bringing it back in.

My neighbor does the epoxy as a job so I'm pretty familiar with the process. He both grinds and etchs although many people feel just one or the other is enough. I'm confident I could DIY if I choose that route but for assorted reasons I'm leaning towards tiles. My garage floor is fairly new. It is what I would classify as a small 3 car garage.

 

[kram71]

Knowing I could have easily hidden the imperfections is a big kicker. In retrospect, I wish he would have provided a disclaimer or warning and/or let me know what I choose was sub-optimal beforehand. Or just had me choose from a specific collection or sample in which the options were all multi-flake.

Have you relayed your concerns? Maybe he can figure a way to get it closer to what you hoped?

 

[ropese]

Have you relayed your concerns? Maybe he can figure a way to get it closer to what you hoped?

I think the only way to get rid of the fish eyes or inverted blisters I think is to redo it and that was never offered. If there was a way to get rid of the fish eyes without redoing it entirely, I would ask him to do it. He redid the exterior portion of the slab and offered to take off a little from the total cost.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Why would a complete redo be necessary? Wow

Not necessary but if you don't like the looks of the floor it is an option.
Be happy you picked a lighter color, the darker the flake the harder it is to make look good.

 

[kram71]

I think the only way to get rid of the fish eyes or inverted blisters I think is to redo it and that was never offered. If there was a way to get rid of the fish eyes without redoing it entirely, I would ask him to do it. He redid the exterior portion of the slab and offered to take off a little from the total cost.

How much of an area would you consider less than you hoped? I'm not an epoxy expert but if he did a less than great job he should stand behind his work till he gets it right. Is below 50 a good time to do epoxy? I had a problem with an expensive countertop. The installer messed it up. I contacted the manufacturer and they put pressure on the installer to make it right. They tried to fix but eventually replaced it. May I ask how much you spent?

 

[ropese]

How much of an area would you consider less than you hoped? I'm not an epoxy expert but if he did a less than great job he should stand behind his work till he gets it right. Is below 50 a good time to do epoxy? I had a problem with an expensive countertop. The installer messed it up. I contacted the manufacturer and they put pressure on the installer to make it right. They tried to fix but eventually replaced it. May I ask how much you spent?

$1235. I actually spoke to a National Polymers rep beforehand because I was concerned about the product and how it would handle moisture. The rep knows the owner of the company who did my garage and said he was pretty good. The owner though didn’t do my garage, his guys did. My garage is smaller than yours. Definitely didn’t overpay, based on the other quotes and research I did. There are the 5-6, maybe a couple more, fish eyes or blisters. There is the clear excess clearcoat along one side at the stem wall/curb. I don’t count the interior corners next to the base of the garage tracks because you can’t see these areas unless you walk right up to it. If I had chosen a multi color flake combo his guys would have probably over flaked anyway, although probably wouldn’t be as obvious.

 

[kram71]

$1235. I actually spoke to a National Polymers rep beforehand because I was concerned about the product and how it would handle moisture. The rep knows the owner of the company who did my garage and said he was pretty good. The owner though didn’t do my garage, his guys did. My garage is smaller than yours. Definitely didn’t overpay, based on the other quotes and research I did. There are the 5-6, maybe a couple more, fish eyes or blisters. There is the clear excess clearcoat along one side at the stem wall/curb. I don’t count the interior corners next to the base of the garage tracks because you can’t see these areas unless you walk right up to it. If I had chosen a multi color flake combo his guys would have probably over flaked anyway, although probably wouldn’t be as obvious.

I think the owner should have tried his best to improve it for you but you mentioned he already gave you some money off another job so he may think that you both agreed to that as a compromise. From the full garage pics it looks good for a garage you said had a lot of issues. If you showed those pics first I would not have guessed you were concerned. Do you have an idea how many bags of flakes did he use? Usually its around 1-2 bags per 300 feet or so.

 

[Armorpoxy]

When we comment on the roughness, a way we ‘measure%they roughness of the overlapping flecks is that if the floor is not comfortable to walk on in bare feet, that’s too rough.

On a full broadcast after the flecks are applied and the epoxy has cured the floor needs to be swept, vacuumed, then scraped or lightly sand screeded, then vacuumed again before the topcoat layers are applied.

 

[ropese]

When we comment on the roughness, a way we ‘measure%they roughness of the overlapping flecks is that if the floor is not comfortable to walk on in bare feet, that’s too rough.

On a full broadcast after the flecks are applied and the epoxy has cured the floor needs to be swept, vacuumed, then scraped or lightly sand screeded, then vacuumed again before the topcoat layers are applied.

I unfortunately did not watch them as they were doing the prep and install. I did just walk barefoot on the floor and it felt coarse definitely but not uncomfortable at all when I walked on it.

 

[ropese]

I think the owner should have tried his best to improve it for you but you mentioned he already gave you some money off another job so he may think that you both agreed to that as a compromise. From the full garage pics it looks good for a garage you said had a lot of issues. If you showed those pics first I would not have guessed you were concerned. Do you have an idea how many bags of flakes did he use? Usually its around 1-2 bags per 300 feet or so.

I don’t know how many bags were used. He had 277 sq feet total in his proposal. Does it look better than the bare concrete floor I had? No question.

 

[ropese]

When we comment on the roughness, a way we ‘measure%they roughness of the overlapping flecks is that if the floor is not comfortable to walk on in bare feet, that’s too rough.

On a full broadcast after the flecks are applied and the epoxy has cured the floor needs to be swept, vacuumed, then scraped or lightly sand screeded, then vacuumed again before the topcoat layers are applied.

Would sanding or screening (then reapplying the clear coat) get rid of the fish eyes/blisters?

 

[kngelv]

I have never seen that much flake before. You can't even see the actual floor. It's completely covered with flakes. Have the Legacy and Armorpoxy guys ever seen a floor like this?

James

 

[ropese]

I have never seen that much flake before. You can't even see the actual floor. It's completely covered with flakes. Have the Legacy and Armorpoxy guys ever seen a floor like this?

James

Hi James. Armorpoxy did comment above that it looks like it’s overdone with flakes. I don’t disagree. They might have also put on an extra thick layer of clear coat to cover the extra amount flakes they spread on. However, I was able to walk on it barefoot without feeling like I was walking on pieces of rough broken glass or similar. It just felt coarse. You are supposed to be able to see the actual concrete from beneath the primer coat, base coat with flake, and clear coat? Either the primer or base coat is a solid gray color though.

 

[kngelv]

Hi James. Armorpoxy did comment above that it looks like it’s overdone with flakes. I don’t disagree. They might have also put on an extra thick layer of clear coat to cover the extra amount flakes they spread on. However, I was able to walk on it barefoot without feeling like I was walking on pieces of rough broken glass or similar. It just felt coarse. You are supposed to be able to see the actual concrete from beneath the primer coat, base coat with flake, and clear coat? Either the primer or base coat is a solid gray color though.

Usually you can see the floor covered with epoxy and then varying amounts of flake. In your pictures it just looks like clear coat over a pile of flakes. You can’t see the actual epoxy.

James

 

[ropese]

Usually you can see the floor covered with epoxy and then varying amounts of flake. In your pictures it just looks like clear coat over a pile of flakes. You can’t see the actual epoxy.

James

Even with full broadcast flake distribution?

 

[rjacobs]

Usually you can see the floor covered with epoxy and then varying amounts of flake. In your pictures it just looks like clear coat over a pile of flakes. You can’t see the actual epoxy.

James

You can get full flake. Its obviously more expensive, but lots of people do it.

 

[ropese]

You can get full flake. Its obviously more expensive, but lots of people do it.

By full broadcast it means the entire floor is covered with flakes, completely saturated? That seems to be what was done to my floor. I am not sure what the intention was as I was not familiar with the broadcast options, nor were they presented to me. The proposal I signed off on simply said “flake broadcast”. I expected there to be a lot of flakes but didn’t realize it would be all one color.

 

[rjacobs]

Yes full flake is full broadcast like what you got.

I have gone back and forth if I want to do that or not.

You can do an epoxy 1st coat, full flake, and a polyurea or polyaspartic top coat and you will get no yellowing(because you fully covered the epoxy, which is prone to yellowing).

Your pictures, to me, look like they shorted you the top coat or tried to stretch it. I would get another layer put on personally I think.

But your first step is to get your installer back out and voice your concerns to them and see how they will remedy them.

 

[ropese]

Yes full flake is full broadcast like what you got.

I have gone back and forth if I want to do that or not.

You can do an epoxy 1st coat, full flake, and a polyurea or polyaspartic top coat and you will get no yellowing(because you fully covered the epoxy, which is prone to yellowing).

Your pictures, to me, look like they shorted you the top coat or tried to stretch it. I would get another layer put on personally I think.

But your first step is to get your installer back out and voice your concerns to them and see how they will remedy them.

If they had shorted me on the top coat i would not have been able to walk barefoot on it though right? I would have felt the flakes more on the bottom of my feet. My biggest thing are the fish eye imperfections. How can they get rid of the fish eyes? Would another layer of clear coat fix that?

 

[rjacobs]

It could possibly be sanded down and another layer of clear put down... BUT you would need to see if thats ok per the manufacturer. I believe some have specified times for the next coats in the process and if you are outside of that its toast... You could have the added top layer peel off if it doesnt bond properly.

One 3 layer system I looked at you waited at least 24 hours in between coats as everything needed to off gas and dry. Then the final coat you werent supposed to drive on it for like 7 days...

Another system(a 2 coat) wanted the second layer put on within like 4-8 hours of the first coat.

They were completely different products. Epoxy vs. Poly.

So you would need to know what your installer used and what the manufacturer recommends as far as re-coating. That would be my concern.

 

[ropese]

It could possibly be sanded down and another layer of clear put down... BUT you would need to see if thats ok per the manufacturer. I believe some have specified times for the next coats in the process and if you are outside of that its toast... You could have the added top layer peel off if it doesnt bond properly.

One 3 layer system I looked at you waited at least 24 hours in between coats as everything needed to off gas and dry. Then the final coat you werent supposed to drive on it for like 7 days...

Another system(a 2 coat) wanted the second layer put on within like 4-8 hours of the first coat.

They were completely different products. Epoxy vs. Poly.

So you would need to know what your installer used and what the manufacturer recommends as far as re-coating. That would be my concern.

Thank you. Here is what he installed - it’s the spec sheet. I don’t think it mentions recoating but I can ask the local rep about that. It clearly seems to say to not install when it’s below a certain temp. It was well after a week that I parked my car in the garage.

 

[Heiny57]

I am in commercial construction and have installed a couple epoxy floors. There are different levels of thicknesses of flooring with matching costs. The more flake that is applied should mean the more clear final coat is applied. Your floor looks good from what I can see. You did say your floor was rough to start, right.

 

[ropese]

I am in commercial construction and have installed a couple epoxy floors. There are different levels of thicknesses of flooring with matching costs. The more flake that is applied should mean the more clear final coat is applied. Your floor looks good from what I can see. You did say your floor was rough to start, right.

Hi, thanks for the comment. The concrete was in pretty rough shape. My biggest problem might be that I didn’t realize I selected a single color flake for them to use and I can now see the imperfections (fish eyes/ inverted bubbles) clearly. Also the exterior portion of the floor that is outside the garage could have been done better. They put two layers on the outside - base and clear coat and had to redo it. I saw bubbles. Likely because the install was done in under 50 degree weather.

 

[Concretefx]

This is not a terrible looking floor. I agree with everyone who said single color flakes are the hardest to do, and don't look as good as multicolored. IMO. That being said this floor doesn't have to be removed. It can be scuff sanded and put another coat of clear down and broadcast another layer of flakes, the color of your choosing,and scrape and re clear. This effectively makes it a double broadcast floor. We have done many double broadcast floors, and you will actually have a thicker stronger floor. Let me say all of my recommendations can only be done if the floor that was put down is structurally sound.