Bought a Wind Turbine

[ishiboo]

You missed the point. The renewables only reduce consumption by the end user, not the utility. The wind and solar do not make power when it is needed (during the peak system demand), and they never will it is just wasted power put on the grid that is not used. Even if every home in the U.S. had solar panels, the big coal plants would still run all day long because you cannot store grid power on any meaningful scale and the power plants cannot be shut down because they will be needed again in the evening when the solar and wind stop and the consumers turn on the TV and cook dinner.

The problem with this is that if you put power on the grid during the day it does very little good and is essentially a waste of power. Eventually if enough people go to home generation, your power company will change its rate structure to a flat rate and you will just pay for standby service. Your rate will not be influenced by what you use, but by the cost of the companies fixed assets and maintenance costs. There are no free lunches you will still pay the same either way in the long run and until someone can store vast amounts of energy for later use then solar and wind are a complete sham. Nukes are a good option since they can run anytime, but the holy grail is cold fusion but that is decades away at the earliest.


Tom

Wrong. You can't put power somewhere where it's "unused".

Even though it's off-peak, the power goes on the grid and is consumed, and the power company needs to generate that much less. It doesn't matter that it's off-peak, it's still throttled so it does reduce coal consumption/emissions/etc.

 

[Tscott]

Wrong. You can't put power somewhere where it's "unused".

Even though it's off-peak, the power goes on the grid and is consumed, and the power company needs to generate that much less. It doesn't matter that it's off-peak, it's still throttled so it does reduce coal consumption/emissions/etc.

They may throttle actual power production, but the power plants still run they may not produce juice, but they still run.

Tom

 

[ishiboo]

They may throttle actual power production, but the power plants still run they may not produce juice, but they still run.

Tom

Most plants are ALWAYS running and producing power, except some oddball units shut down unless they're needed, or maintenance. BUT, they throttle the amount of coal that is burned, or the number of exposed fuel rods in a nuclear plant, to vary the amount of steam generated and thus the amount of power produced.

You'll see generic reports which display % of rated output for each unit at the plant. In an emergency, many plants can also go above 100%.

So fuel consumption is definitely based on demand, just like a car engine or anything else.

 

[kd4pbs]

The power plants running in a reduced rate due to private power generation installations feeding the grid still cost less to operate than a greater rate when the private power generation installation is not feeding the grid. They don't have to feed in as much coal, gas, water, or teeny, tiny bits of atoms. Like ishiboo says, it all balances out... it has to... it's the law... Ohm's law. Last time I check, that's one law that doesn't have to be enforced because it cannot be broken.
That being said, I still don't appreciate my tax dollars being given to someone just because they wanted to have some cool, neato wind or solar generating system in their house, or a car that barely makes it up a hill.
-Matt

 

[TommyD]

Around here the neighbors get all up in arms about these things saying they'll be noisy, reduce property values and just about any other excuse they can dream up to stop someone from putting them up, no matter how much land one has. I have seen a few though and there was a battle going on just recently.

I was looking at a vertical axis wind turbine for our house, I haven't got much into it, yet, but we're in tghe woods, on a small hillside and not to far from Long Island Sound so it can get breeze here. Figured I could install something liuke this under the radar of neighbors and Town.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/vertical_axis_wind_turbines.htm

 

[Tscott]

Ok, I think we are arguing semantics here. Lets assume for arguments sake that the renewables in question do indeed fill a need during the low times when the system is operating on a base load and lets say for arguments sake that the power plants can use almost no fuel during these times.

Given this, the system must still be designed for peak usage. When I design a line, I cannot design for what load I will see today, I design the line for the worst case scenario, or at least a really bad scenario. My lines are built to be heavily loaded, they are heavily loaded at the peak system times when the renewables in question are dropping off or are gone so that means that I still need to build the same amount of generation as if renewables did not exist. You may be able to build smaller plants to act as peakers, but they typically cost more to run due to the types of fuel they burn. So my initial point is still valid, the plants and the wire lines still need to be paid for since you need them to provide power during the renewables off peak generation times. So even though you may have a net bill of zero due to selling power back onto the grid during the day, the fixed costs to the power company still remain. So either the cost of everybody elses power goes up or the company changes rate structures to a flat rate so they can stay alive.

Tom

 

[Falcon67]

Around here the neighbors get all up in arms about these things saying they'll be noisy, reduce property values and just about any other excuse they can dream up to stop someone from putting them up, no matter how much land one has. I have seen a few though and there was a battle going on just recently.

We had a bunch of that when they started Horse Hollow. My son-in-law is in the industry and he started at Horse Hollow with Vestas. 277 south winds through the hills there and they look quite majestic to me. And I kid you not, they got a call once from a local yokel lawyer asking if the "fans" were running on a certain day that his client was "blown off the road".

I think I have an old PopSci mag with something about a Darrieus vertical.

 

[kd4pbs]

Ok, I think we are arguing semantics here. Lets assume for arguments sake that the renewables in question do indeed fill a need during the low times when the system is operating on a base load and lets say for arguments sake that the power plants can use almost no fuel during these times.

Given this, the system must still be designed for peak usage. When I design a line, I cannot design for what load I will see today, I design the line for the worst case scenario, or at least a really bad scenario. My lines are built to be heavily loaded, they are heavily loaded at the peak system times when the renewables in question are dropping off or are gone so that means that I still need to build the same amount of generation as if renewables did not exist. You may be able to build smaller plants to act as peakers, but they typically cost more to run due to the types of fuel they burn. So my initial point is still valid, the plants and the wire lines still need to be paid for since you need them to provide power during the renewables off peak generation times. So even though you may have a net bill of zero due to selling power back onto the grid during the day, the fixed costs to the power company still remain. So either the cost of everybody elses power goes up or the company changes rate structures to a flat rate so they can stay alive.

Tom

Then the question would be how much of the cost power being sold to you is to cover the cost of the facility, and how much is to cover the cost of the fuel to feed the facility. I imagine this could be easily figured out.

 

[TommyD]

I was out west, Colorado maybe, and there were FARMS of the horizontal shafts out there, there had to be at least 100 in the one we saw. Impressive as hell.

Someone here in the State was talking about a floating farm of them out in Long Island Sound to catch the breezes, the uproar was crazy.

We have to get off the fossil fuel but...we don't want to see anything when we look out the window...

 

[ishiboo]

Ok, I think we are arguing semantics here. Lets assume for arguments sake that the renewables in question do indeed fill a need during the low times when the system is operating on a base load and lets say for arguments sake that the power plants can use almost no fuel during these times.

Given this, the system must still be designed for peak usage. When I design a line, I cannot design for what load I will see today, I design the line for the worst case scenario, or at least a really bad scenario. My lines are built to be heavily loaded, they are heavily loaded at the peak system times when the renewables in question are dropping off or are gone so that means that I still need to build the same amount of generation as if renewables did not exist. You may be able to build smaller plants to act as peakers, but they typically cost more to run due to the types of fuel they burn. So my initial point is still valid, the plants and the wire lines still need to be paid for since you need them to provide power during the renewables off peak generation times. So even though you may have a net bill of zero due to selling power back onto the grid during the day, the fixed costs to the power company still remain. So either the cost of everybody elses power goes up or the company changes rate structures to a flat rate so they can stay alive.

Tom

No question whatsoever the lines/plants/etc. need to be designed for peak usage, and that's not (except AC usage in the summer) when the renewables come on, though wind still produces at night at times. (There is at least one infrequent exception to this rule which is stored hydro, which can use power during non-peak times to pump water up into storage areas, and gravity takes over at peak times. This of course relies on the luck of the draw for having just the right geography to take advantage of, and there is a decent efficiency loss.)

The argument I have is that the cost difference is near nil in the grand scheme of things right now, because there are so few installations and almost all wires are needed to serve the other 99.999999999% of paying customers around them.

As a power customer, for simply paying and maintaining the share of transmission lines for the 1 in 250,000 people who have a system capable of actually giving them a "zero" bill, the cost difference is less than you pay for the PoCo employees coffee breaks. It's amazingly TINY. You pay much more for the lazy people who just don't pay their power bills, government assistance, LED/CFL funding, etc.

Alternative energy is not designed or intended to help the grid operators out, the subsidies are designed to further alternative energy, even if at some point in time it does reduce capacity needed. The subsidies do not make sense when viewed with a narrow mind, the scheme is far grander than the government is giving Joey John a huge chunk of change so he can save money on his power bill.

 

[slopecarver]

Too bad there is not enough hydro power available where it is needed. They have instantaneous power on demand with energy storage capabilities, as long as you don't plan to pump more water into the reservoir.

I am lusting over a property where I can have my own micro hydro power setup, no dams required. Simply because I don't want to live in a hot sunny place with too much wind.

And Tscott what's your problem with renewable energy? Are you secretly a big oil CEO?

 

[Tscott]

Too bad there is not enough hydro power available where it is needed. They have instantaneous power on demand with energy storage capabilities, as long as you don't plan to pump more water into the reservoir.

I am lusting over a property where I can have my own micro hydro power setup, no dams required. Simply because I don't want to live in a hot sunny place with too much wind.

And Tscott what's your problem with renewable energy? Are you secretly a big oil CEO?

Yep, you got me I moonlight in forums to discourage others from breaking free of my greedy power conglomerate. I also club baby seals with kitten lined clubs as I light my Cuban Cigar with $100 dollar bills.


I'm not against renewables, as a matter of fact I am fascinated by them. I go to as many conferences as I can on the issue and I am discouraged that they just don't make sense. Solar may one day fill a large bit of the void once nanotechnology becomes more widespread but I fear that is 20 to 30 years away. I think biodiesel pooping bacteria are a very promising field, but once again that is probably pretty far down the pipe. I just feel there is a lot of misinformation out there from the green folks, and I think it discourages people from demanding that we drill for fossil fuels at home and instead they ask when their solar power car will be here. I also don't like the outright theft of my money as it is shuffled to other folks whom are deemed worthy of my hard earned cash. I say let the private entrepreneurial spirit of America solve the problem. There is a ton of money to be made in finding an answer to this problem so the want is there now we just need the right person or company to show up and make it work. I believe in American exceptionalism.

Tom

 

[RazrRebel]

I may be biased but I work in the coal industry. It seems to me that there is nothing right now ready to replace coal or oil. I can see cleaning it up, but from what I can read about nothing wouls be ready to replace coal or oil for decades. I agree totally that it can all be cleaner. Also the hybrid vehicles just don't work in the rural mountain areas. I cross two mountains to get back and forth to work everyday. The batteries couldn't get you over one. Another thing is the amount of jobs that would be impacted. Coal and oil is labor intensive compared to the alternatives, millions of people would be out of work. Everybody thinks we should drill for our own oil at home, but the government will not break ties with foreign countrys. We have to be too diplomatic for that. I really think we need to sever ties with the countrys we depend on. I know all of us is old enough to remember when we were a superpower. What happened with that.

 

[DSLTRK]

You missed the point. The renewables only reduce consumption by the end user, not the utility. The wind and solar do not make power when it is needed (during the peak system demand), and they never will it is just wasted power put on the grid that is not used. Even if every home in the U.S. had solar panels, the big coal plants would still run all day long because you cannot store grid power on any meaningful scale and the power plants cannot be shut down because they will be needed again in the evening when the solar and wind stop and the consumers turn on the TV and cook dinner.

The problem with this is that if you put power on the grid during the day it does very little good and is essentially a waste of power. Eventually if enough people go to home generation, your power company will change its rate structure to a flat rate and you will just pay for standby service. Your rate will not be influenced by what you use, but by the cost of the companies fixed assets and maintenance costs. There are no free lunches you will still pay the same either way in the long run and until someone can store vast amounts of energy for later use then solar and wind are a complete sham. Nukes are a good option since they can run anytime, but the holy grail is cold fusion but that is decades away at the earliest.


Tom

Every single kWh I've produced has been used. If my turbine is producing more than I'm using, the power will backfeed into the grid and power my neighbors.

Not true at all, peak demand is during the middle of the day, and during the middle of the day, solar is at peak performance. Wind can be variable, but I've seen the turbine run 12.5 kW all day long.

Also, SoCal Edison already has a flat rate, it's called a "distribution" fee. A whopping $2 and change. Fine by me.

 

[DSLTRK]

Around here the neighbors get all up in arms about these things saying they'll be noisy, reduce property values and just about any other excuse they can dream up to stop someone from putting them up, no matter how much land one has. I have seen a few though and there was a battle going on just recently.

I was looking at a vertical axis wind turbine for our house, I haven't got much into it, yet, but we're in tghe woods, on a small hillside and not to far from Long Island Sound so it can get breeze here. Figured I could install something liuke this under the radar of neighbors and Town.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/vertical_axis_wind_turbines.htm

That's great! My neighbors are thinking of getting one, that's how much they like it. I've heard there's good wind in your area.

 

[DSLTRK]

Yep, you got me I moonlight in forums to discourage others from breaking free of my greedy power conglomerate. I also club baby seals with kitten lined clubs as I light my Cuban Cigar with $100 dollar bills.


I'm not against renewables, as a matter of fact I am fascinated by them. I go to as many conferences as I can on the issue and I am discouraged that they just don't make sense. Solar may one day fill a large bit of the void once nanotechnology becomes more widespread but I fear that is 20 to 30 years away. I think biodiesel pooping bacteria are a very promising field, but once again that is probably pretty far down the pipe. I just feel there is a lot of misinformation out there from the green folks, and I think it discourages people from demanding that we drill for fossil fuels at home and instead they ask when their solar power car will be here. I also don't like the outright theft of my money as it is shuffled to other folks whom are deemed worthy of my hard earned cash. I say let the private entrepreneurial spirit of America solve the problem. There is a ton of money to be made in finding an answer to this problem so the want is there now we just need the right person or company to show up and make it work. I believe in American exceptionalism.

Tom

So now I "Stole" your hard earned cash. I think you should start attending more reputable RE conferences to get a better understanding of how it works.
Firstly, the CA RE rebate is replenished by power companies that only provide power to CA. It's not funded partially by some guy living in Florida. Only qualified persons who are on "on grid" with SCE PG&E etc. supply the fund.

 

[DSLTRK]

These turbines are actually very reliable. My neighbor has had hers since 2002 and it still is running great. She's produced over 130000 kWh. The turbines have massive sealed NACHI bearings, around 6" diameter. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of them tomorrow. Its amazing how long those sealed bearings last, probably due to such a low radial/axial load based on their size.

Manufacturers estimate 20-25 years before overhauling(replacing bearings, painting blades). A neighbor 5 miles North of me has had his since 1996 and it still is running, but the inverter called it quits last year.

They also auto protect themselves from storms, the tail folds around the side. A few weeks ago we had a 100+ mph micro-burst and the tail did its job well. That also improves longevity.

 

[DSLTRK]

Here's another shot. You can see my neighbor's wind turbine in the background.

And another-

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Solar and typically wind have generation peaks at the complete wrong time of the day. Most power systems peak around 8am and 6pm (when folks get ready from work and come home at night), these are times when solar and wind are typically at their low point in their generation curve. These renewables peak in the middle of the day when the system peak is typically at its lowest because everyone is at work.

What 'cha think those folks are doing at work? sitting around in the dark freezing to death? So you burn a few watts turning on lights and getting ready for work, then you get to work, and burn a whole lot more watts as the office lights come on, the thermostat gets cranked up, machinery starts up, compressors fire up, computers and monitors are booted, the office radio gets turned on................. I would say the average individual consumes way more power at work than they would if they stayed home all day.

Charles

 

[TommyD]

sweet

 

[slopecarver]

What 'cha think those folks are doing at work? sitting around in the dark freezing to death? So you burn a few watts turning on lights and getting ready for work, then you get to work, and burn a whole lot more watts as the office lights come on, the thermostat gets cranked up, machinery starts up, compressors fire up, computers and monitors are booted, the office radio gets turned on................. I would say the average individual consumes way more power at work than they would if they stayed home all day.

Charles

Not to mention that A/C load has a high correlation to to solar energy production in the southwest

 

[RPH]

That's the massive bearing? I will have to get a picture when I get back to the office. We build the induction hardening machines for the races. Have a pic of one in China doing one about 4 meters across.

 

[rwhite692]

....Also the hybrid vehicles just don't work in the rural mountain areas. I cross two mountains to get back and forth to work everyday. The batteries couldn't get you over one....

Wow, someone forgot to tell me, and thousands of others...

My Civic hybrid is getting me to work every day back and forth over the Altamont pass (1,000+ feet elevation change each way) between the Central Valley and Silicon Valley, with the cruise set at 73MPH and knocking down 41MPG. It is a quiet, boring, cheap commuter car that does exactly what it is supposed to do.

 

[gatchel]

DSLTRK,

Thanks for posting the pics. It's pretty cool to see what is out there as far as alternative energy is concerned. It's a shame it became more of a "Free Parking" thread.

BTW, That is one big *** bearing...

 

[rwhite692]

Wind energy is great. I love it. Solar? Love it too. The issue I have is, why did I (and the rest of you) just pay 80% of the cost of this installation (over 50K dollars)? Rebates and government credits don't happen in a vacuum. The supplier gets paid the full amount now, but the balance gets charged to me, you, and our grandchildren. This is not political...it's financial. If these purchases made sense, the actual purchasers would pay for them. The entire amount. The sellers wouldn't be able to keep up with the orders, because demand would be so high. But that's not what's happening. These things don't make financial sense. They are too expensive, as return on investment is horrible. 30 years for return on investment? We have no clue what technology will be in 5 years, let alone 30. And that's not including costs to maintain the equipment, which could be quite extensive. I think it would be a good idea to just step back and re-evaluate what's going on here.

Exactly!

 

[cj7365]

So your fellow taxpayers and utility customers are paying the other $50,000, or about 12 years of free utilities welfare for you.

Yep, sounds like a hell of a deal...........

He's in California, as long as it's "green" it doesn't matter how much it is subsidized

Im not knocking you, but that is what is wrong with our country, the market has too dictate weather or not its going to suceed. hmmmmmm can you say solendra

 

[cj7365]

Wow, someone forgot to tell me, and thousands of others...

My Civic hybrid is getting me to work every day back and forth over the Altamont pass (1,000+ feet elevation change each way) between the Central Valley and Silicon Valley, with the cruise set at 73MPH and knocking down 41MPG. It is a quiet, boring, cheap commuter car that does exactly what it is supposed to do.

hmmmm my 94 honda (non hybrid) gets 35 MPG and cost half of the hybrid

 

[green.bubbly]

We don't have the winds needed here in Louisiana except during a hurricane. I honestly do not understand the high cost of these systems. I can by a 5kw generator for well under a grand. Attach a few blades to it and a tower and it spirals to $60,000!!!

of course I over simplified that but still in all, it is not a moon rocket. the one complaint I have heard many times is the amount of noise the large turbines create. Maybe the newer ones are better but a not long ago I stopped by the wind farm on the Texas cost and even while standing directly below one, there was hardly any noise. In fact, the wind blowing across my ears made more noise than the turbine did.

 

[RazrRebel]

Yeah a Geo Metro gets 40 mpg too. The gas mileage thing doesn't have much merit. The difference in mileage between hybrids and non hybrids isn't enough for the price difference. You'll never reach 55 mph up and down where we live, also you can't really haul your coal home in a civic. Just sayin'

 

[DSLTRK]

That's the massive bearing? I will have to get a picture when I get back to the office. We build the induction hardening machines for the races. Have a pic of one in China doing one about 4 meters across.

Wow, that's huge. I'm guessing it's a huge slewing bearing. Probably made for wind turbines?

 

[DSLTRK]

We don't have the winds needed here in Louisiana except during a hurricane. I honestly do not understand the high cost of these systems. I can by a 5kw generator for well under a grand. Attach a few blades to it and a tower and it spirals to $60,000!!!

of course I over simplified that but still in all, it is not a moon rocket. the one complaint I have heard many times is the amount of noise the large turbines create. Maybe the newer ones are better but a not long ago I stopped by the wind farm on the Texas cost and even while standing directly below one, there was hardly any noise. In fact, the wind blowing across my ears made more noise than the turbine did.

Let's do some math.
I'll use my neighbor's wind turbine as an example.
So far, she has generated over 130,000 kWhs of power.

A 5kW generator consumes about 3/4 gallon of fuel an hour under a full load.
For a 5kW generator to produce the equivalent of 130,000 kWhs, it would need to run continuously around 26,000 hours. 26,000 x 3/4 gallon = 19,500 gallons of fuel. At the current rate fuel(87 oct gas) costs, you'd end up spending roughly $69,000, at current rates. Further, this doesn't account for generator maintenance or inflation. And it's using non renewable sources. So there is one of the reasons wind power is chosen over gens.

 

[ishiboo]

Let's do some math.
I'll use my neighbor's wind turbine as an example.
So far, she has generated over 130,000 kWhs of power.

A 5kW generator consumes about 3/4 gallon of fuel an hour under a full load.
For a 5kW generator to produce the equivalent of 130,000 kWhs, it would need to run continuously around 26,000 hours. 26,000 x 3/4 gallon = 19,500 gallons of fuel. At the current rate fuel(87 oct gas) costs, you'd end up spending roughly $69,000, at current rates. Further, this doesn't account for generator maintenance or inflation. And it's using non renewable sources. So there is one of the reasons wind power is chosen over gens.

Plus a cheap 5kw generator would bite the dust at a couple hundred hours maybe.

Get into some of the 1800RPM diesels and you could hit 26,000, the Isuzu-powered MQ's do it on a regular basis I've read.

 

[tdkkart]

A 5kW generator consumes about 3/4 gallon of fuel an hour under a full load.

Yes, but 5kw is only 60 cents worth of electricity($.12/kw here), at today's price($3.43) 3/4 of a gallon of fuel is $2.57.
Then, you might get 500hrs out of a generator at 3/4 load, so figure out how many generators you need to produce 130 million watts of electricity.

Gasoline generators are one of the LEAST efficient ways of producing electricty.

 

[Greatbear]

Traditional energy production is subsidized quite heavily, everything from tax breaks for building power plants, favorable zoning for the plants and distribution, you name it. Subsidizing alternative energy for individuals not only benefits that end user, but the power return (or lessened power usage) at the endpoint benefits the distribution as a whole, less energy needs to be produced at the head end, and the local endpoint (the surrounding neighborhood) benefits from reduced losses from long distance distribution, in all, it's a win-win situation for those people along the entire distribution.

However, one thing does not make sense. Subsidies for the end user? Dittoheads scream "Socialism! Fascism!" Subsidies for Big Utility? "Amurrica! **** yeah!"

 

[Marshall2u]

As far as the hybrids? I have a 12 year old Jetta diesel which gets up to 50 MPG highway (and averages 43 around town). It doesn't have an electric motor, environmentally destructive battery array's, and wasn't subsidized. These diesels have been getting similar mileage for over 30 years. They weren't hugely successful because people DID NOT WANT THEM. Even today, though sales of more efficient vehicles are up, American's still buy what they want, which often are more powerful (and exciting) vehicles.

It all comes down to punishing certain technologies, and subsidizing others. Our nation (well, a few lawyers in DC) has decided which will be rewarded, and which will be taxed and regulated out of existence. The problem with this is, these guys have no clue as to what they are doing. Technological advance never comes from mandates, punishments to current standards, or tunnel vision. The big companies are now snuggling into bed with those who force mandates, and are trying to get the big contracts for what the lawyers have decided is the next "thing." Hmmm....GE comes to mind. When was the last time you saw an engineer in Congress? I'm sure there has been some....but not many....and even so, the power and ingenuity of MILLIONS of formally trained and "home trained" engineers around this nation, far outweighs the mandates forced on us by the 536 people who now dictate to 310 million people what is best for the future.

Let me just propose a silly scenario.... GE has been having an ongoing affair with those who dictate how free we really are....and they have invested mightily in wind power.....government has also mightily subsidized this wind power.....then along comes some intelligent GJ member who has figured out cold fusion in his garage (built, over the years, with the help of all his fellow GJ members, I might add). Does anyone honestly believe that GE or the government would simply drop their investments to date and embrace the new technology? When someone else owns it?? Nope. Politicians, although we kid ourselves by thinking they do what's best for us, they don't. They are individuals, and got where they are, usually, by becoming beholden to big money interests. You know what? The rest of us are individuals too. We became the most incredible nation in the history of the world because we once valued the individual. We don't again need to ruled by kings and princes. We fought a war to gain freedom for the individual. We've gone back to treating our leaders as royalty. I'm not happy with that. These people are like all royalty, who think they are better and smarter than us all....they are NOT.

I know I'm not supposed to talk politics, and I will get into trouble for this, but, you know what? GJ IS political. You can't have a garage and not be involved in politics. I have to wonder why I can't have a drive -thru door on my garage if my driveway isn't paved. I'm technically supposed to ask "pretty please" if I want to ad more electrical outlets. If I want to have a bonfire, I need to beg the government for a permit. I OWN my property, right? If I cause a problem with someone else, THEY have an actionable issue with me.....GRRRRRRRRRRR.....I'm so tired of officials casting "accross the board" rules. They have not right...only those who I harm....and that goes for subsidizes....don't charge (harm) me while someone else gains personally. It's not ethical.

Sorry, rant off.....I want to get my final inspection on my building, and have not yet figured out how to keep my roll up door without paving my 300 ft driveway (I cannot figure out how this requirement helps anyone). Government is there to help those with money and power (so maybe it helps those who pave?). Individual responsibility is a thing of the past. It's always the fault of someone else. Unless the government wants to slap you with something.

 

[TommyD]

We have to wean ourselves off the teat of OPEC no matter HOW we do kit. The car developed from the horse and carriage to what we have now be it gas, diesel, hybrid or electric... it had an infancy. So will "green" technologies grow in the same manner, SOMEONE needs to start the ball rolling. I want solar panels but I can't afford them, yet, the price IS coming down due to interest by the Public, investment and research. I've seen some with battery storage so the power that is generated is stored for future use by the generator.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with nuclear power generation, it's been proven there is no such thing as a "small" mistake. They have far reaching complications...And with the way oil SPECULATORS can drive up the price of gas OVERNIGHT you'd think there'd be Public outcry to invest MORE in renewable technologies.

My humble opinion and $.02

 

[Tscott]

Every single kWh I've produced has been used. If my turbine is producing more than I'm using, the power will backfeed into the grid and power my neighbors.

Not true at all, peak demand is during the middle of the day, and during the middle of the day, solar is at peak performance. Wind can be variable, but I've seen the turbine run 12.5 kW all day long.

Also, SoCal Edison already has a flat rate, it's called a "distribution" fee. A whopping $2 and change. Fine by me.

Most power systems peak early in the morning and late in the afternoon as these are times when people arrive home from work and begin to use more power. During the day they are all at work and the overall load drops because commercial environments typically use less KWH per person than a residential house would (i.e. at home 1 2 ton AC runs for 2 to 3 people at work a 10 tone may run for 30 or 40 people so less KWH used per person). There are of course exceptions to this rule bu in general it applies to the vast majority of power systems. Ideally you would have no peaks at all and run a flat curve day and night. Some highly industrial areas achieve this, but not many.

You flat rate is basically a memeber charge we have one where I work as well, I think ours is $11. It basically covers some of the fixed cost to get power to you, but in reality we use power sales to recover line costs over a 30 year payback.

So now I "Stole" your hard earned cash. I think you should start attending more reputable RE conferences to get a better understanding of how it works.
Firstly, the CA RE rebate is replenished by power companies that only provide power to CA. It's not funded partially by some guy living in Florida. Only qualified persons who are on "on grid" with SCE PG&E etc. supply the fund.

No you did not steal anything, you are simply using the program as it is intended I am not mad at you so put your cur down and relax. The conferences I attend are typically part of education seminars put on by power providers and vendors to those and other energy type companies. We are the primary industry for these types of things. If we could generate power with solar cells or wind at a cost less than we can with conventional fuels, we would be all over it. Fuel prices are the bane of our existence, they constantly cause us to increase prices due to rising costs of fuel and delivery. I am not aware of the details of your particular providers program, but I seriously doubt that it is done completely by the power companies with no federal support. Either way, I know there is a federal tax break on such things which means either your lying or you missed another possible rebate. Either way, shame on you.

What 'cha think those folks are doing at work? sitting around in the dark freezing to death? So you burn a few watts turning on lights and getting ready for work, then you get to work, and burn a whole lot more watts as the office lights come on, the thermostat gets cranked up, machinery starts up, compressors fire up, computers and monitors are booted, the office radio gets turned on................. I would say the average individual consumes way more power at work than they would if they stayed home all day.

Charles

Nope, you are wrong. In highly industrial areas, this may be true but even in those areas, motor loads and lights, like in big factories, tend to run constantly so they really have very little effect on system peak as they tend to be a solid base load. As stated above, in general, the typical power system curve has 2 peaks one in the morning and one in the evening when people are at home. This is not a guess by me, it is fact. It is true that a commercial business pulls more KWH than a residential home, but there are also more people in an office building or hospital than in your home as well so you use more KWH per person while at home than you do at work. Once again this is not a guess, this is fact.


You can all choose to believe what you want, but I do know what I am talking about. I have seen a number of case studies and each one is the same. They end up paying around 3 times the amount per KWH with renewables than they would with gas, coal, or Nuke and that is with government subsidies. If it really worked, then everyone would have a wind turbine in the yard and solar panels on the roof, it is as simple as that.

Tom

 

[ishiboo]

Versus

All on one graph:

Looks like solar and peak power usage are a good fit, and there are not peaks in the morning/evening, but rather buildup in the waking hours as you'd expect?

 

[Falcon67]

>If it really worked, then everyone would have a wind turbine in the yard and solar panels on the roof, it is as simple as that.

Well maybe not, because most cities won't allow turbines. Abilene - "Even if they wanted to apply for them they wouldnt meet the standards just because we had a significant setback that was required by properties at one and a half times the height of the tower. Not many properties have that ability"
"Daily, people are interested in putting up some sort of renewable energy source on their homestead. So thats a regular call and a regular concern for the citizens of Abilene," Said Doug Maglio, a renewable energy specialist who works at Kesters Inverters in East Abilene. Kesters installs wind turbines to homes and businesses.


Maglio says the want is growing. City Planning and Development says they're ready to address the questions they've been studying in order to make it work for the city.
"Where generally speaking do you think these things should be located at...are they appropriate in residential areas are they appropriate in industrial areas, agricultural areas. These are the questions that we think we've got a pretty good handle, from the planning and zoning's perspective on at this point."


So maybe, maybe not. Another point about solar - even with a set back thermostat, here we have pretty heavy AC use during peak sun time, so any array would help. Remember, last summer - well, started in April LOL - it was not unusual to see temps at 95~100F at 10AM. I don't care how many Rs you've got up there, when your roof deck is 160F and your south brick facing walls are 120F+ it's gonna get warm in the house after a while. June, July, August, September it may be 80F at 7:30AM. So IMHO, solar is an excellent fit here because that AC unit is on when the sun it up unless you hit the breaker.

I'm not sure how it would help commercial buildings - the billing is really freaky on those. Our drag strip got $400+ bills with everything thing off except the ice machine in the concession stand. Running, it was $1K and north.

And there is the "buy back" deal - we're on a co-op and AFAIK, their tarriff doesn't require them to buy excess power. I'd be happy with an offset.

Another hit for "peak may be location dependent":
"When the miserable heat of August broke records and the state collectively ratcheted down its thermostat, placing unprecedented demands on the electricity grid, wind farms on the Texas coast — on some days, at least — provided more power than those in West Texas during times of peak demand. Coastal wind turbines generated more electricity than West Texas turbines during peak demand periods on nine of the first 14 days of August, according to data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages the grid.
That's despite being far outnumbered by their western counterparts.
The trend didn't last: from Aug. 15 through Aug. 25, the most recent data available, West Texas wind generated more electricity for nine out of 11 days.
The data reflected power generated at a time of peak demand, 5 p.m., leading some pundits to note that coastal wind power has some advantages over wind generated in West Texas.
Bill Peacock, vice president of research and planning and director of the Center for Economic Freedom at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, penned a column citing ERCOT President Trip Doggett's comments in explaining the differences in wind power generation: "As our load is ramping up in the late afternoon, coastal wind is ramping up during those hours ... The diversity of coastal versus West Texas wind is an advantage to us in operating the grid."

Once we're on Daylight Savings, it doesn't get dark here until close to 9PM.

 

[Holedgr]

Maybe I missed it, but when the generator(invertor) fails, dies whatever...you don't spend another 60k....you have it rebuilt, right??
So what it the worst case rebuilt cost?? HOw much if the thing dismounted itself and came spiraling to the ground?? Just curious...
I like the whole idea...

BTW....everyone....if the contractor gets all his money, whatever percentage from the power co. or government....whatever...Does he put it in a jar an sit on it?? NO, he dumps it back into the economy whether it be a goddamn power boat or a new install truck or a big *** house....who cares?!! It's going into OUR economy. THAT"S A STIMULUS!!!!! Show me a contractor who gets a pile of money that DOESNT spend it in some fashion or another, and I'll show you some pictures of mythical people of my own...


Thanks.


-T