Bought an old farm. Shop electrical project

[Brandon_oma#692]

Bought a new house looking for a little help on the electric panels. I have 2 transformers by the road with wires to a pole in the yard. Pole has the electric meter. The wires coming in do not go down to the meter it has some remote sensor I guess?

From the pole:
2 hots and a neutral to the house.
2 hots and a neutral to the barn.
2 hots and a neutral to the small detached garage.
3 hots a neutral and a ground to the shop.

House has 200 amp homeline panel installed in 2012. Neutral and ground wires for branch circuits land on the same bar which has a ground wire to an old metal pipe through the foundation.

Barn has 100 amp qo panel. Haven't looked at it yet.

Detached garage has a 2 circuit fuse box. Runs a single light bulb and the block heater for my truck. Plan to replace.

Shop (where I am starting) has 200 amp breaker on pole in yard then underground to shop. In this box a ground wire is attached to the neutral and runs to the shop for 5 wires total. In shop 200 amp fused disconnect with temporary panel with 2 outlets next to it. Only lights are a string of temporary bulbs down the middle plugged in to an outlet at the panel.

For the shop I have a new qo 3 phase panel to install. What do I do for the ground? I think I need 2 ground rods outside and the ground/neutral bars will be separate? Also tie in the ground wire that goes back to the pole?

Edit to add. Rural Illinois. All buildings mentioned are separate detached structures. All buildings are fed from the wires from the pole in the yard. No panel is a sub off another panel.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Shop breaker box on pole wires on top are incoming power bottom is underground to the shop

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Disconnect in shop with tiny wires to temp panel that it came with. Would like to get my new panel in this weekend.

 

[sparky 1971]

I see a green ground wire leaving the pole and a bare ground entering the shop. Any idea where the splice is? If that's all ok, the ground from the pole does need connected in the shop and it need two ground rods. It needs to be separate from the neutral. If your new panel didn't come with a ground bar, you will need to get one.

I also see that only one hot wire is marked, and it's in the center, and not being currently used in the shop panel. That may be a delta. Use a meter and check from hot to neutral to confirm that the center wire isn't 208 volts. If it is, make damned sure you don't put any 120 on it. It will be fine for your 240 loads though.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

I see a green ground wire leaving the pole and a bare ground entering the shop. Any idea where the splice is? If that's all ok, the ground from the pole does need connected in the shop and it need two ground rods. It needs to be separate from the neutral. If your new panel didn't come with a ground bar, you will need to get one.

I also see that only one hot wire is marked, and it's in the center, and not being currently used in the shop panel. That may be a delta. Use a meter and check from hot to neutral to confirm that the center wire isn't 208 volts. If it is, make damned sure you don't put any 120 on it. It will be fine for your 240 loads though.

I'll look in the conduit outside the shop and see what I can see for the ground wire. No clue about any splices since it was installed for the previous owner. Center leg is 208 to ground so I need to be careful with my 120 circuits.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'll look in the conduit outside the shop and see what I can see for the ground wire. No clue about any splices since it was installed for the previous owner. Center leg is 208 to ground so I need to be careful with my 120 circuits.

Since it is 208, it's supposed to be marked orange. Maybe it is, but it looks like red tape to me. I don't care if it is or not, but the next guy might.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Since it is 208, it's supposed to be marked orange. Maybe it is, but it looks like red tape to me. I don't care if it is or not, but the next guy might.

It is red. I'll change it.

 

[jblnut]

Your electrician must also be a plumber based on the conduit they used in that pic in post #3. They even used the correct "tape" to secure it to the wall !!!

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Your electrician must also be a plumber based on the conduit they used in that pic in post #3. They even used the correct "tape" to secure it to the wall !!!

It is a thing of beauty. The quad box is on a 30 amp breaker. Another box has a duplex 120 outlet and a 240 outlet, the 240 is fed by 2 separate single breakers. One is for the duplex outlet and the other is the yard light.

This building was going to be a cheese factory. They did this to get the walls and ceiling redone.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Since it is 208, it's supposed to be marked orange. Maybe it is, but it looks like red tape to me. I don't care if it is or not, but the next guy might.

The orange marking rule has been around for many years, but before that red was commonly used.
A high leg delta was also known as a "Red leg delta"

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Poor overall picture. Has full length lean to that is 1/3 finished. Floor is lower in the lean to so that is a bonus.

 

[jblnut]

It is a thing of beauty. The quad box is on a 30 amp breaker. Another box has a duplex 120 outlet and a 240 outlet, the 240 is fed by 2 separate single breakers. One is for the duplex outlet and the other is the yard light.

This building was going to be a cheese factory. They did this to get the walls and ceiling redone.

Gotta give them some credit with that 240 outlet .... you need to know enough to keep it on separate phases to make it work so they weren't total morons ..... just maybe not totally worried about safety......

I shouldn't criticize I guess ....... I made and daily use an adapter to plug a pair of 10ga extension cords into separate 120v outlets by our grain bins to run a 240v auger because I'm too cheap to put in a 240v outlet. I guess it's not dumb if it works

EDIT: That is a sharp looking shop !!!!!

 

[sparky 1971]

The orange marking rule has been around for many years, but before that red was commonly used.
A high leg delta was also known as a "Red leg delta"

I'm guessing here, but based on the breaker on the pole, I think the service is newer than the red marking rule. I wasn't aware it used to be red, so it predates me and I'm getting to be one of the old guys I used to make fun of when I started.

 

[alfredeneuman]

On a second look I agree.
Insulation looks like THHN/THWN. Square D breakers with English as well as French writing.
I started out in 1970 and asked an "old guy"(that I used to make fun of) when I found red instead of orange tape

 

[sparky 1971]

On a second look I agree.
Insulation looks like THHN/THWN. Square D breakers with English as well as French writing.
I started out in 1970 and asked an "old guy"(that I used to make fun of) when I found red instead of orange tape

The yellow stripe on the neutral screams URD to me, but I will admit to not seeing everything there is out there. Now the whole URD inside a building is against code discussion is about to begin.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the stinger leg looks smaller than the other 2 phases.

also URD is not permitted inside as said above

 

[Norcal]

Normally around here when the high leg is red it is in the "C" phase, for metering the high leg is always the "C" position, the orange high leg, the PoCo cash register is not covered by the NEC.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Install of the underground to the shop was done in the last few years by whatever company the previous owner hired. Soooooo. Where should I have the neutral and ground connected? Where should they not be connected?

 

[TRWham]

Install of the underground to the shop was done in the last few years by whatever company the previous owner hired. Soooooo. Where should I have the neutral and ground connected? Where should they not be connected?

The only place they should be bonded is at the service disconnect. Any panel after that is a subpanel, including the main if the service disconnect is separate, and the neutral and ground should be isolated.

Key issue: Is there a disconnect at the pole for each of these buildings (apparently there is for the shop)? If there is a separate ground conductor from the pole to each panel is a clue, so the 5 wires to the 3 phase in the shop is correct given it has a breaker at the pole and is a subpanel. That you only have 3 wires to each of the others implies these are taps and there is no disconnect at the pole, so each building should have its own service disconnect and those grounds and neutrals should be bonded at that point.

As for ground electrodes, every building needs its own rods, Ufer, water pipe or some combination of these. All of the grounding systems will be tied through the various panels where the grounds are bonded (in this case at the pole).

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

The only place they should be bonded is at the service disconnect. Any panel after that is a subpanel, including the main if the service disconnect is separate, and the neutral and ground should be isolated.

Key issue: Is there a disconnect at the pole for each of these buildings (apparently there is for the shop)? If there is a separate ground conductor from the pole to each panel is a clue, so the 5 wires to the 3 phase in the shop is correct given it has a breaker at the pole and is a subpanel. That you only have 3 wires to each of the others implies these are taps and there is no disconnect at the pole, so each building should have its own service disconnect and those grounds and neutrals should be bonded at that point.

As for ground electrodes, every building needs its own rods, Ufer, water pipe or some combination of these. All of the grounding systems will be tied through the various panels where the grounds are bonded (in this case at the pole).

Thank you yes. I didn't think of the shop being a sub panel of the breaker on the pole. Makes sense now. The shop is the only one with a disconnect at the pole. Everything else is coming off the transformers. No central shut off or breaker.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

With spring around the corner I'm trying to get going on this. Main panel is up and powered. Old panel is disconnected. Need to drive in ground rods. Still had ice on the ground on that side of the building where they are going when I was working on the panel.

For the high leg on branch wiring do I need to get orange wire or can I use black and tape it orange everywhere it is accessible?

Most wiring will be THHN in EMT conduit. Some of the lighting circuits will be THHN/EMT to switch then up to ceiling then NMB above the ceiling.

 

[sparky 1971]

For branch circuit wiring using #14, #12, and #10, get orange wire. It's permissible to tape wire size #4 and larger, but here they let us tape #8 and #6, so you make your own judgement call about that.

 

[Norcal]

For branch circuit wiring using #14, #12, and #10, get orange wire. It's permissible to tape wire size #4 and larger, but here they let us tape #8 and #6, so you make your own judgement call about that.

Not code but puppies & kittens will still be born blind if taped, prefer not to but is a rule that can cause one to shake ones head about.

 

[Jim greengo]

I'm guessing here, but based on the breaker on the pole, I think the service is newer than the red marking rule. I wasn't aware it used to be red, so it predates me and I'm getting to be one of the old guys I used to make fun of when I started.

Used to be black/red/blue for 208 back in the day.
Brown/orange/yellow for 480.
But I own several patents on dirt.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Used to be black/red/blue for 208 back in the day.

It's still black/red/blue for 208 but this is a 240V center tapped delta service, not a 208V service.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Thanks guys. Renamed the title.

My lighting plan is 3 runs of conduit west to east. 2 breakers 4 switches. 1 breaker west half 1 breaker east half. 1 switch middle conduit west and 1 switch middle conduit east. 1 switch outer conduits west and 1 outer conduits east.

Damn that's confusing sorry. Goal is to have 1/3, 2/3, or 3/3 lighting per west or east end of the building depending on what I'm doing.

West end is primarily working area and east is storage. Long term projects will likely happen in the storage area so I am doing all 3 rows instead of just 1 like I planned earlier.

Can/should this be a mwbc? I wanted 2 breakers so if something trips 1 all the lights don't go out.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks guys. Renamed the title.

My lighting plan is 3 runs of conduit west to east. 2 breakers 4 switches. 1 breaker west half 1 breaker east half. 1 switch middle conduit west and 1 switch middle conduit east. 1 switch outer conduits west and 1 outer conduits east.

Damn that's confusing sorry. Goal is to have 1/3, 2/3, or 3/3 lighting per west or east end of the building depending on what I'm doing.

West end is primarily working area and east is storage. Long term projects will likely happen in the storage area so I am doing all 3 rows instead of just 1 like I planned earlier.

Can/should this be a mwbc? I wanted 2 breakers so if something trips 1 all the lights don't go out.

The point of an MWBC is to save money on wire by sharing a neutral.

If you use handle-tied breakers (required by code) and one trips its possible it will trip the other one...

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

The point of an MWBC is to save money on wire by sharing a neutral.

If you use handle-tied breakers (required by code) and one trips its possible it will trip the other one...

It is a qo panel. The handle ties say that the breakers will trip independently. Do they have a history of tripping both? Having one less wire would be less to pull so I'm all for it.

 

[RPH]

For the cost of the wire is it worth the risk of being plunged into darkness at an inopportune moment. I believe that lighting circuits should be on the own circuit with individual circuit breakers. Lose the feed to the drill press or table saw can be frustrating. But losing the saw and lights at the same time is dangerous. Break the lights up so as not to leave you in the dark unless complete power failure. If that’s the case, never mind.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

For the cost of the wire is it worth the risk of being plunged into darkness at an inopportune moment. I believe that lighting circuits should be on the own circuit with individual circuit breakers. Lose the feed to the drill press or table saw can be frustrating. But losing the saw and lights at the same time is dangerous. Break the lights up so as not to leave you in the dark unless complete power failure. If that’s the case, never mind.

That is part of my question. The handle ties say they allow independent tripped breakers. Do they actually trip independently in a qo panel or does it not work the way it is supposed to in the real world?

 

[RPH]

My understanding of tied breakers is they both go off. I’m not an electrician but have worked with power systems my whole career.
That’s what found in machine controls and what I’ve seen in the home life.
The concern with multi wire branch circuits is the shared neutral. One side cob opens the neutral will still be a current carrying conductor relative to the other circuit breaker. That’s a shock hazard.
Lights need to be staged so not to leave you in the dark.

 

[exranger06]

Handle-tied breakers are independent trip. Theoretically, one breaker tripping shouldn't ever affect the other breaker. However, IF the handle of a breaker moves to the "off" position when it trips, it will move the other breaker handle and cause it to trip as well. That being said, the breaker handle will NOT necessarily move every time it trips. A breaker can trip and shut the power off without the handle physically moving at all. If you've ever had a dead short and tried to reset the breaker, you'd see that the breaker will immediately trip again as soon as you reset it. Even if you hold the handle in the "on" position and prevent it from moving, the breaker still trips and shuts the power off. But if there's nothing holding the handle open, it may or may not move to the "off" position. So a handle-tied breaker may or may not trip both legs; it just depends on if the breaker tries to move the handle AND it can overcome the resistance of the other breaker handle.

 

[sparky 1971]

That is part of my question. The handle ties say they allow independent tripped breakers. Do they actually trip independently in a qo panel or does it not work the way it is supposed to in the real world?

It's possible, but not probably that they will simultaneously trip. QO handle ties fit about as well as a saddle on a sow, there is plenty of slop in them, so I wouldn't be concerned. However, if one breaker does trip, it will require both breakers to be shut off in order to reset.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Ended up pulling 3 hots and 3 neutrals. Each run will be it's own breaker and switch, North, center, and south. Not breaking it up East/West. Ran the numbers on cost per hour with everything on and it was less than expected so I decided it was pointless to make it more complex.

North row is halfway down the building. Have conduit and wire to the first box of the center and south. Really nice to walk in the door and flip a light switch to make lights come on instead of plugging in the extension cord for the temporary light string.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Also peeked in the barn electrical tonight. This will be fun..... Don't worry this will be abandoned soon.

 

[Bert_]

Also peeked in the barn electrical tonight. This will be fun..... Don't worry this will be abandoned soon.

I'm sure some get bent out of shape just seeing something like that. That doesn't even phase me, looks pretty average for an old farm building.

You didn't have to dig out a mouse nest and find half the wires missing the insulation so all in all I'd say it's pretty good

 

[sparky 1971]

Pretty typical for around here too. I'm impressed by the fact that there are two romex connectors in it.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

Bridgeport 2hp 240 3 phase wiring

Trying to verify what I need for wire and breaker. Plan was 12awg THHN in conduit on a 20 amp 3 pole breaker. 20amp is the smallest 3 pole breaker I have on hand, but will get what is needed. Drum switch has 14/4 cord on it about 6' long. Total run from panel to motor is less than 25' of wire if it matters.

Hooked it up temporary to check function and all is good. Now it is in place so I want to do it correctly.

Someone banged the cover on the motor. Fan is ok just need new screws.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

circuit wiring for motors is sized @ 125% of FLC based on T430.248 and T430.250.

2HP 3 phase motor has an FLC of 6.8a so 6.8a x 1.25%= 8.5a so even #14 THWN would suffice.

 

[alfredeneuman]

a 20 amp 3 pole breaker. 20amp is the smallest 3 pole breaker I have on hand, but will get what is needed.

That's perfect. It can be up to 250% of the load