Brackets on piers for my pole barn

[SheThinksImCrazy]

Went to get a building permit for a 30 x 30 x 10 pole barn....guy at town hall looks at my drawings....says "no" to buried poles....the poles need to be bolted to piers ....>>> SO ....are there some type of bracket available that can be set in the concrete that bolt to a 6" x 6" post or will I have to fabricate brackets??

 

[bfarroo]

There are ones you can sent in the concrete that are U shaped on top that the 6x6 sits in. There are also L type brackets that sit on each side and get cement anchors installed in them to fasten them down.

 

[MagKarl]

I would ask to see where buried poles are prohibited in the code.

If I had to use brackets I'd start my research here. Not saying I'd buy them, but a place to get started. https://www.permacolumn.com/home

 

[tfi racing]

Simpson Strong Tie should have a suitable bracket,buried poles are likely a bad idea anyways.See what the local builders are using,if you can't bury the poles that means no one else can either.You're lucky the town actually still looks at your drawings,around here they just look at the engineer's stamp and place all the responsibility on the engineer.

 

[65cayne]

Went to get a building permit for a 30 x 30 x 10 pole barn....guy at town hall looks at my drawings....says "no" to buried poles....the poles need to be bolted to piers ....>>> SO ....are there some type of bracket available that can be set in the concrete that bolt to a 6" x 6" post or will I have to fabricate brackets??

Check these out. Simpson Strongtie concrete anchors. Anchored deep in concrete and provides large tabs for securing the post.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/CBSQ.asp

Similar to the top of a permacolumn:

https://www.permacolumn.com/what-are-perma-columns

Not sure which would be the cheaper route but they both look like good solutions in my novice opinion. Slightly more labor and money than post in ground.

 

[jd_1138]

I wouldn't want buried poles. The local Ace Hardware has an entire row of those bracket connectors -- for 4x4, 6x6, 2x4's, etc..

 

[Moss]

People seem to build them here in Niagara often enough. Unless nobody is getting a permit I can't see how they are banned in codes. Where are you?

 

[jd_1138]

People seem to build them here in Niagara often enough. Unless nobody is getting a permit I can't see how they are banned in codes. Where are you?

I think they are up to code around here in Ohio. Neighbor had one built -- the posts went right into the dirt.

I wouldn't do it. Doesn't seem like it'd save much money in labor/materials? I'd be afraid of the posts rotting out after a decade or so if water seeps in. I'm no master carpenter, but just looking at it from a physics point of view, it seems to not be a good idea. I would never want wood (even PT) sitting on/in dirt.

 

[dynahoe]

look into perma columns

 

[tmcelheny]

Why the heck wouldn't they want you to sink the poles?? Must be soil types in your area. I just built a pole building and per code they had to be sunk 48" minimum below grade and they are setting on 8" thick concrete pads... My dad has two pole buildings that have been built this way and are both over 25 yrs old and there is not even a touch of rot in the poles. ( which is why I'm suspecting people are against sinking em), as long as there is proper drainage around the building ( and even if there wasn't) they would be fine in the ground ...JMO

 

[383]

Simpson CB66.

 

[WNYflyer]

You can just get any ol' bracket at the hardware store, Home Depot, etc. You would need a bracket that is appropriate for the design assumptions and forces that would come out of the building design/analysis. Pole buildings can be designed a few different ways thus the type of bracket needed can vary based upon how the building was designed. I would talk to your building manufacturer rep and let them know your predicament and hopefully they can help you out.

I would think you most likely would be looking at something like the perma columns as already mentioned since it looks like they have "moment capacity".The building rep better know this term or be able to talk intelligently with the manufacturer concerning the building design assumptions and any "moments" at the proposed bracket joint location.

 

[Moss]

You can just get any ol' bracket at the hardware store, Home Depot, etc. You would need a bracket that is appropriate for the design assumptions and forces that would come out of the building design/analysis. Pole buildings can be designed a few different ways thus the type of bracket needed can vary based upon how the building was designed. I would talk to your building manufacturer rep and let them know your predicament and hopefully they can help you out.

I would think you most likely would be looking at something like the perma columns as already mentioned since it looks like they have "moment capacity".The building rep better know this term or be able to talk intelligently with the manufacturer concerning the building design assumptions and any "moments" at the proposed bracket joint location.

I agree for sure, I'd rather have my poles in the ground then secured with deck brackets that aren't designed to take the various loads of a big sheeted wall etc.

 

[kbs2244]

After being sure you cannot do it to code check out these sites.

http://www.countryplans.com/foundation/index.html

https://www.permacolumn.com/home

http://www.easybuildings.com/

 

[mx842]

I was faced with the same problem a couple years ago when I started my barn build, only it wasn't because of some inspector. I just didn't want to have my post in the ground. I looked at all of the possibilities with regard to store bought brackets and I just couldn't see paying the cost they wanted for those things. At the time they wanted over $30.00 a piece for them and that would mean it would take over a $1000.00 of my already tight budget before I even started.

I went to the local medal supply house and found a couple pieces of 1/4" thick drops about 4" wide and made my brackets out of that. I got them to cut the medal some 4" wide and an equal number 6" and welded them together to make a 4"x 6" angle. I could have bought 4x6 angle but the cost would have been about double or more because they didn't have any drop material in that size.

I drilled one 1/2" hole in the 4" piece for the 1/2" anchor bolt in the concrete and three 1/4" holes in the 6" piece in a V pattern for 5" long, 1/4" lag bolts. The cost of everything, bolts, anchors, paint, medal was under $140.00 but it did take me about a day to make them. Also it did take a little extra time to counter sink the pattern of the bracket into the post but that was minimal.

The only mistake I made was when I built my piers I set them at my finish grade and I wish I had set them to sub grade, that way the tops of the piers would not be left showing in the finish floor. They are not that noticeable but the concrete guys could have done a better job if they could have worked to the base board rather than the tops of the piers.

 

[SheThinksImCrazy]

People seem to build them here in Niagara often enough. Unless nobody is getting a permit I can't see how they are banned in codes. Where are you?

I'm located in Ridgeway,Ontario....on 2.5 acres....if I want to build a pole barn with the poles buried, I need engineer stamped drawings....makes no sense to me

 

[MagKarl]

You could get your drawings stamped by an engineer instead of spending a bunch of money on expensive brackets.

 

[Jfresh]

I'm not a engineer but without the poles sunk the brackets are going to do anything for lateral sheer. I have been doing a lot of reading around here and I am surprised how many people don't engineer their buildings. I know it is not required in some place but if I was doing anyone then storing hay a few bucks on engineering seems like a wise investment.

 

[ryan77]

poles in the ground are the best/strongest feature of a pole building, no money spent on a footer foundation, cheaper/quicker build with a floating slab floor,(most can be built in two days) the laminated posts should last our lifetime(maybe not your kids) in the ground and have awesome shear force, if you use brackets and decide to bolt to a slab be sure to X brace the walls with cables or metal strip, so it don't fold in a wind!

 

[spanny749]

you should ask the guy at town hall how he thinks the telephone/hydro poles are installed.

 

[buddyboy]

having the poles in the ground is part of the strength of the building.

if you can't bury the poles and have to 'band aid' some bracket connecting the pole to the foundation... then you should consider switching to post and beam or stick built... or switch from wood and go to steel.

pole buildings are simple structures that require less labor and materials to build.

it would be like saying you want a motorcycle and the government saying it has to have 4 wheels and of the four, two of them need to be powered, so you go out and weld to bikes together to meet government requirements

 

[914wilhelm]

I wanted a pole barn but my "soil" was impossible. Soil is clay seeped between densely packed golf ball to watermelon sized rocks for 2' over 10+ feet of cemented gravel. No one could drill holes cheaply. My backhoe wouldn't go through it and when I punched in with a trackhoe there is standing water year round. I didn't want poles sitting in water all the time. Thus my center ridge is supported by 6"x6" 1/4" wall x 20 foot tall steel posts bolted to 6'x6'x1' piers and walls are stick framed. Running I-joists from center wall to ridge beam for increased head room.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

I understand what those are intending when they say that the poles shouldn't be buried in the ground, because of the potential for rot. So, what if the poles, for the length which is below grade, are inside a Sonotube, and the tube is filled with concrete? Does that do an adequate job of protecting the poles?





.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

From my experience a pole set into Concrete will last less time than one in well drained soil.

 

[PugetDude]

You could get your drawings stamped by an engineer instead of spending a bunch of money on expensive brackets.

Whoever is providing the pole barn package should have the ability to provide stamped drawings....

 

[David C]

I think you should step back and rethink what you want to do for your building.

The typical pole barn design is a wood pole embedded into the ground and secured in place. If you push the top the pole remains in place, ie there is moment restraint at the base of the pole due to the embedment.

Simpson and many other mfg make column bases for wood posts. You can fabricate your own. None of these connectors, none, provide moment restraint at the base of the wood column. Call Simpson and ask them if you want. If you push on the pole at the top it is going to tear out at the base.

A typical pole barn design (not all) relies on moment restraint at the base of the posts to provide lateral strength to the building. You can alter the structural design of the building to get this lateral strength in other ways, through shear walls and other connections, but if you don't your structure could parallelogram in moderate winds and you could experience a partial or complete building collapse.

Steel buildings (with an apparent pole barn like structure) are sometimes designed such that there is no moment restraint at the base of the column. When this is done the moment restraint is at the column to rafter connection. You can easily determine whether this is the structural design by looking at the steel columns. If the steel columns are shallow (lacking depth) at the base and increase in depth with height, the lateral structure is a frame. Note also that the rafter has a deeper section at the column than at the ridge. This type of column rafter design would be called a frame and will resist lateral forces. A wood frame is difficult to design and construct.

There are other ways steel buildings are designed to resist lateral loads. Some include a moment connection at the column base others a partial moment connection at the base and at the rafter. Others use a shear wall system of cross braced rods.

FYI, There are provisions in most codes, and calculation methods, for calculating the later strength of a wood pole embedded in soil.

I would never build a building where wood in contract with soil. Where I live the wood, regardless of treatment, would not last 5 years and would be gone in 10. I also just don't think the idea of permanent building and wood in contact with soil are compatible ideas. Just my opinion. I realize that you all could come up with dozens of stories orf100 year old wood pole barns.

To recapitulate, there are ways to structurally design your building omitting the embedment of wood poles into soil. Pick one of those and get it designed correctly.

 

[cva1993]

These brackets are indeed available. You may however be asked to submit an engineer's report as these details may not be listed in your area's building code.

 

[rburke65]

NE Ohio here and my pole barn is 34 years old and still stanind. My new one sit on concrete "cookie" in the bottom of the hole and then backfilled. I'll be with the worms by the time this rots. Good luck.

 

[gravelydude]

My father built a 50x100 pole barn in Youngstown, Ohio in 1965. It is still standing, and is structurally sound. I plan on building a pole building for my shop in North Carolina this summer. I am not hesitant at all to put my poles in the ground. I am confident that the building will outlast me, and that a pole barn type building offers a lot of advantages in structural integrity at an economical price point. I would do some checking around before assuming that my first contact at the building department is correct.

Jack

 

[mtwaterguy]

I'm located in Ridgeway,Ontario....on 2.5 acres....if I want to build a pole barn with the poles buried, I need engineer stamped drawings....makes no sense to me

Trying to understand this.... First you say the town hall says no to buried poles, then you say if you want buried poles you need engineered drawings. So which is it?

 

[zable9]

I think you should step back and rethink what you want to do for your building.

The typical pole barn design is a wood pole embedded into the ground and secured in place. If you push the top the pole remains in place, ie there is moment restraint at the base of the pole due to the embedment.

Simpson and many other mfg make column bases for wood posts. You can fabricate your own. None of these connectors, none, provide moment restraint at the base of the wood column. Call Simpson and ask them if you want. If you push on the pole at the top it is going to tear out at the base.

A typical pole barn design (not all) relies on moment restraint at the base of the posts to provide lateral strength to the building. You can alter the structural design of the building to get this lateral strength in other ways, through shear walls and other connections, but if you don't your structure could parallelogram in moderate winds and you could experience a partial or complete building collapse.

Steel buildings (with an apparent pole barn like structure) are sometimes designed such that there is no moment restraint at the base of the column. When this is done the moment restraint is at the column to rafter connection. You can easily determine whether this is the structural design by looking at the steel columns. If the steel columns are shallow (lacking depth) at the base and increase in depth with height, the lateral structure is a frame. Note also that the rafter has a deeper section at the column than at the ridge. This type of column rafter design would be called a frame and will resist lateral forces. A wood frame is difficult to design and construct.

There are other ways steel buildings are designed to resist lateral loads. Some include a moment connection at the column base others a partial moment connection at the base and at the rafter. Others use a shear wall system of cross braced rods.

FYI, There are provisions in most codes, and calculation methods, for calculating the later strength of a wood pole embedded in soil.

I would never build a building where wood in contract with soil. Where I live the wood, regardless of treatment, would not last 5 years and would be gone in 10. I also just don't think the idea of permanent building and wood in contact with soil are compatible ideas. Just my opinion. I realize that you all could come up with dozens of stories orf100 year old wood pole barns.

To recapitulate, there are ways to structurally design your building omitting the embedment of wood poles into soil. Pick one of those and get it designed correctly.

Thx for sharing