Brake and Fuel line flare tools

[JASTECH]

Howdy! I will be needing to make new metal (SS) brake and fuel lines for my 2 Scout II and 73' CJ-5.
I will convert both binders to Hydra-Boost ect. I have always just bought the lines but now I want to do it all myself custom. There is a nice kit in the Easrwood dogalog that has 37 & 45 degree flares?
What is the pro's and con's if any of these 2 degrees?

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[dan1552]

Im not exactly sure, but one offset is for stainless steel and the other is for softer line , but im not gonna lie to you on which one. there was a segment on stacey davids gearz ,im almost certain 37 was stainless but you needed special additional fittings.

 

[toms73novass]

45 degree is the standard fitting used on most US automotive hydraulic lines. 37 degrees are used on JIC and AN connections found on Aircraft and Auto Racing applicaions. The 37 degree is designed to be taken apart many times and reassembled after maintance or inspection.

Either will work, however, they have to be used with the proper fittings on the connections. Since 45 was the original design, it will be easier/cheaper to get fittings.

 

[Jzytaruk]

Single Flare is used on SS lines, and is 37deg, Double Flares used on softer materials are 45deg. If I recall correctly.

 

[IndyGarage]

I bought the Eastwood kit last summer and it works great to make single and double SAE flares.

I do wish they had the dies available to make 37 degree flares with it. I don't know why they don't have them available. It seems like it would be pretty simple to offer a new "turret" and some additional dies for them. On soft materials, like copper, the 45 degree flare will conform to 37 degrees pretty easily, but I imagine on stainless you might not want to do that.

 

[JASTECH]

IndyGarage, I agree on the Turret!
That is a nice looking system and sence the pro's have spoken for which i'm greatful, it should be 45 deg. Single flare for SS and then proper anchoring to inside of frame will keep them secure. I will order SS line and need to ask couple more ?'s.
1) 3/16" or 1/4" for brake lines?

2) 5/16" or 3/8" for fuel?

I will be pulling my built SBC and TH400 out of the 73' Scout and installing 4bt, still thinking about ****** (stick), D60 Front, 14b FF Rear w/disc on all 4 with Hydra-Boost. Looking for to get out when all hell breaks loose Scout!
Any thoughts?

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[ponchopower]

Single Flare is used on SS lines, and is 37deg, Double Flares used on softer materials are 45deg. If I recall correctly.

No, it's either 45 degree double flares, or 37 degree single flares. Either can be used with stainless. You need the correct tools and the correct stainless tubing to properly flare stainless. You should use seamless annealed thin wall tubing. The best flare solution is the Mastercool hydraulic flare set. You need to be very careful in both the tubing prep and the flaring, as the flare dies are easy to damage.

You will learn to hate flaring stainless. I did both -8AN 37 deg stainless for my fuel supply and return, and I did 3/16" 45deg double flare stainless for all my brake lines. Even with properly flared stainless lines, you often really need to use some bionic strength to tighten some connections to eliminate leaks - the stainless doesn't seat as easily as softer steel.

One other thing. I've heard mostly good things about the Eastwood turret, but of course not as good as the Mastercool setup but the Mastercool set is more expensive. While it may not seem like you would ever need to do it, you'll find that the Mastercool hydraulic flare tool will also allow you to flare closer to a radius, and to flare a line on a vehicle of necessary where the Eastman tool will not. Ask me how I know.

 

[ponchopower]

IndyGarage, I agree on the Turret!
That is a nice looking system and sence the pro's have spoken for which i'm greatful, it should be 45 deg. Single flare for SS and then proper anchoring to inside of frame will keep them secure. I will order SS line and need to ask couple more ?'s.
1) 3/16" or 1/4" for brake lines?

2) 5/16" or 3/8" for fuel?

I will be pulling my built SBC and TH400 out of the 73' Scout and installing 4bt, still thinking about ****** (stick), D60 Front, 14b FF Rear w/disc on all 4 with Hydra-Boost. Looking for to get out when all hell breaks loose Scout!
Any thoughts?

Thanks, JASTECH

See my other post about the 37deg vs 45deg. If you're using -AN fittings then it's 45. Otherwise soft or stainless, it should be 37 double flares.

Line sizes depend on your specific application. For fuel, you need to consider the needs of your engine, what fuel pump, regulator (if you're using one), in other words, what does "built SBC" really mean? For brake lines it will depend on your brake system design. My advice would be 3/16 for everything (that's what Wilwood and Baer both recommend) but if you're going to use 1/4 anywhere, it would probably only be from the proportioning valve back to the T above the rear end, and then transition back to 3/16" from the T to each wheel.

 

[rodm1]

Consider using Cunifer is will be 100% easier to bend and flare. Advanced auto sells it to but expensive if you go with this I have a source with good pricing PM me. It might not be desirable for off roading do to being similar to copper tubbing.

http://www.cunifer.com/

 

[Busted Bolts]

I use the S.U.R&R brake line. It is a mix of copper and nickel. Very easy to bend and flare. It is also corrosion free. You can use the standard fittings. Since I have used this, I have had zero come backs. We were having a horrible time with the trucks that had salt spreaders on them., since I started using this, the only lines I replace are the ones that haven't upgraded to this type. This comes in a 25ft or 100 ft coil.

 

[ponchopower]

I would agree with both rodm1 and Busted Bolts. Especially in an off-road application, one of the above 2 solutions will be way easier to deal with, and in the event that you crush a line it will be both easier to repair and easier to get replacement line.

To get "correct" stainless line, I have to order mine from halfway across the country, and shipping alone is a pain. I do not think I would use stainless if I were doing it again. I'm helping my old man restore a '54 chevy 3100 truck and we will not use stainless. I've got a '72 Vette that will be after that, and no stainless lines there either.

 

[89GLH]

I bought the Mastercool universal hydraulic flare tool for my stainless lines. The other flare tools pushed the line out of the block, no matter how hard I chucked it in. Brake lines even in stainless should NEVER be single flared.

 

[ponchopower]

I bought the Mastercool universal hydraulic flare tool for my stainless lines. The other flare tools pushed the line out of the block, no matter how hard I chucked it in. Brake lines even in stainless should NEVER be single flared.

What line did you use? I'm wondering if you didn't get something other than thin wall annealed? Using something other than that could result in what you experienced. The right tubing can be hard to find. Places like Inline Tube can deal with thicker walls due to the equipment they have.

Or did you mean that the Mastercool tool worked but anything ELSE pushed it out - which also makes sense.

 

[Johnny chaos]

Stainless is more brittle than standard brake line and therefore it should only be flared to 37 degrees and only use a single flare. The AN fittings use a collar behind the single flare to help "support it" for lack of a better word. I have the mastercool universal hydraulic flaring tool 71450, I think is the part#? I purchased the 37 degree add on kit for stainless and it works great.

 

[ponchopower]

Stainless is more brittle than standard brake line and therefore it should only be flared to 37 degrees and only use a single flare. The AN fittings use a collar behind the single flare to help "support it" for lack of a better word. I have the mastercool universal hydraulic flaring tool 71450, I think is the part#? I purchased the 37 degree add on kit for stainless and it works great.

I have no idea where you are getting this information but you are incorrect. Stainless is not more "brittle" but if not properly dealt with it will work harden. The work hardening issue is the real concern and it is something that should be considered when working with it. Even cutting the stainless tubing is a bit different in order to prevent work hardening. There is no reason whatsoever preventing annealed stainless thin wall tubing from having a 45 degree double flare. It has been done for many years, you can even buy OEM replacment 45deg double flare lines pre-made from companies such as Inline Tube or Right Stuff, and is completely and totally safe. My Mastercool setup has both 45 and 37 degree components. I've done plenty of it.

That being said, -AN fittings are excellent fittings and that's what we use (including for brake lines) in aircraft. Should you prefer to use -AN, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. The flare and seat surface are larger and IMHO it is a better design. But "better" is not "only".

There are tens of thousands (probably far more than that) of cars having true 45 degree double flared stainless brake systems in them. The biggest problems that caused these wives tails to pop up are:

1) People using the incorrect stainless. You MUST use seamless, non-welded, annealed, thin wall stainless. You MUST. Other stainless is far more likely to split when you attempt a double (bubble) flare. An example of the correct stainless to use is: http://www.purechoicemotorsports.co.../category_id=79/home_id=79/mode=cat/cat79.htm

2) People using a regular tubing cutter to cut stainless tubing. While there are some stainless tubing cutters that the blades reduce this risk, normal tubing cutters at a minimum will work harden the tubing and create serious issues.

3) People using the wrong flaring tool, or simply not knowing how to correctly use the tool that you have.

4) People using "coils" of stainless and trying to flare a section that has already been bent, resulting in that section becoming work hardened.

 

[JASTECH]

Wow, Good information from the lot of you!
I will keep both eyes on this thread, maybe "stickie" it?
It's hard to find tested info on brake lines and the proper tools for the job. I have 2 Scout's and a CJ-5 to redo and you guys are the best manual hands down!

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[rodm1]

1) People using the incorrect stainless. You MUST use seamless, non-welded, annealed, thin wall stainless. You MUST. Other stainless is far more likely to split when you attempt a double (bubble) flare. An example of the correct stainless to use is: http://www.purechoicemotorsports.co.../category_id=79/home_id=79/mode=cat/cat79.htm

2) People using a regular tubing cutter to cut stainless tubing. While there are some stainless tubing cutters that the blades reduce this risk, normal tubing cutters at a minimum will work harden the tubing and create serious issues.

3) People using the wrong flaring tool, or simply not knowing how to correctly use the tool that you have.

4) People using "coils" of stainless and trying to flare a section that has already been bent, resulting in that section becoming work hardened.

Summit sells the proper stainless tubing all sow. Cunifer (Kunifer) has similar problem when cutting it.

 

[ponchopower]

Summit sells the proper stainless tubing all sow. Cunifer (Kunifer) has similar problem when cutting it.

Good to know. Summit AND UPS are very very familiar with my address

Last time I checked, however, they did not have straight sections of annealed thin wall tubing suitable for double flare 45 ends. Plenty annealed good for 37deg -AN single flares. Or it was in coils, which I don't want. Stainless is too hard to bend and work hardens too fast for me to be comfortable starting with coils of stainless.

If there's a part number handy, I'd appreciate you sending it over. The stuff I buy is very very good quality but it's not cheap, shipping is definitely more expensive than Summit and takes longer.