Breaker box issues

[Bennylava]

Ah the joys of home ownership. Time for me to cough up 3 grand for a new "panel".

But just out of curiosity, I thought I would stop by and ask what the safety risk is. Apparently the bolt in the right lug wasn't tightened all the way down. This made it get hot, and melt into the plastic panel that insulates everything from the breaker box. I guess the last guy that was in there just didn't tighten it enough. Or maybe the vibration of electricity finally loosened it over the 40 year period it's been there. Either way they're telling me I need to pay $3k in repairs.

But they've already put it all back together while I decide. I've already decided, I'll have them replace it. That kind of power is nothing to screw around with and I can't do the job myself. But I can't help be curious what would happen if I did nothing. Now that they have tightened up the lug, is the fire risk gone?

I'm hoping that "panel" doesn't just mean the black plastic that the main busses sit on. I hope it means the entire breaker box and all it's contents. Also I want to keep the old breaker box in case I can use it for something else later. I hope they don't think they get to keep it. Any insight into these matters would be greatly appreciated, since this is the first time I've had to deal with any electrical work of consequence. Thanks

 

[PCustoms]

1. Post pics, if you can safely
2. Get a full scope of work. A panel is $200, but will likely trigger a bunch of additional upgrades

The risk is fire, so if you had a loose/arcing/overheating buss that is now damaged and cannot be tightened then it really needs to be replaced. When a loose connection gets bad it's sort of a runaway condition, it just keeps getting looser and hotter until ****.

 

[mike93lx]

3k for a panel swap is about what I would expect. A second quote would be worth it, might come closer to 2k if you are lucky, but arc fault breakers are expensive, if any are getting used, plus the cost to troubleshoot all the ******** that comes with them.

If it needs replacing, the old box is trash and a panel can be bought for very cheap... 100a main breaker homeline is under $100

A short of the main bus to the case would start a fire

 

[Norcal]

Melted components mean the panel is scrap metal, do not attempt to reuse it.

 

[Dragfluid]

As said, a new breaker box is $200+. But I'm guessing that (and a Sparky can jump in and confirm or correct) if you didn't previously have arc fault breakers, those will have to be added and that is where a big chunk of change will be. (stupid damn things)
Whenever a connection is loose, it causes resistance. Resistance causes heat. Heat causes even more resistance. See where we're going here? That's how electrically related fires happen. Glad that you're taking care of it!

 

[LOW1]

“Panel” should mean an entire new box and new breakers.

The old one should be trashed. If it was safe it would not need to be replaced. Using it somewhere else will not make it safer.

Now is the time to make other electrical upgrades. If you have a 100 amp box consider getting a 200 amp box. This will likely require larger wires between the transformer and the new box. Consider burying this line If it is not Already.

Think of the old box as a 40 year old appliance that is unfixable. It is time to go.

 

[mikedodge]

That's about on par with panel replacement. Don't band aid repair an old panel it's not worth the risk.

 

[rmanrman]

The electric panel empty is about $2-300
But the breakers that must be AFCI are almost $100 each times 20-30 breakers it gets expensive. Also two electric ground rods plus permit and inspection costs I think 3K is a fair price in NJ. Btw don’t wait till winter you’ll be without electricity for most of the day during panel replacement.

 

[Norcal]

The electric panel empty is about $2-300
But the breakers that must be AFCI are almost $100 each times 20-30 breakers it gets expensive. Also two electric ground rods plus permit and inspection costs I think 3K is a fair price in NJ. Btw don’t wait till winter you’ll be without electricity for most of the day during panel replacement.

Unless the OP is adding outlets, the NEC does not require snake oil devices (AFCI's) to be added with a panel swap.

 

[sparky 1971]

Unless the OP is adding outlets, the NEC does not require snake oil devices (AFCI's) to be added with a panel swap.

There is one jurisdiction I know of that considers a panel swap a circuit modification and requires AFCI flavored Kool-Aid. Hopefully it's the only one in the country but I have my doubts.

And $3K is probably about right for a straight across breaker for breaker panel swap.

 

[manwithtools]

For $3k I don't think the OP is getting a box full of AFCI's. I suspect his panel replacement is not triggering the "upgrade" to AFCI's in his jurisdiction.

 

[PCustoms]

For $3k I don't think the OP is getting a box full of AFCI's. I suspect his panel replacement is not triggering the "upgrade" to AFCI's in his jurisdiction.

No clue, hence why I suggested getting a written scope of work

 

[ybnormal]

as a side-related question to this, is there a preferred brand/model of breaker/box where upgrade issues are minimized in the future?
for example, if I'm replacing a clothes washer and I'm close to retirement and never want to have to buy another before I die, several threads here on GJ recommend going with SpeedQueen. they're not the fanciest or the cheapest, but they last forever! something like this for breakers/boxes?

 

[MovingAlong]

But just out of curiosity, I thought I would stop by and ask what the safety risk is. Apparently the bolt in the right lug wasn't tightened all the way down. This made it get hot, and melt into the plastic panel that insulates everything from the breaker box.

You just described the safety risk - loss of insulation from everything else in the breaker box.

I hope they don't think they get to keep it. Any insight into these matters would be greatly appreciated, since this is the first time I've had to deal with any electrical work of consequence. Thanks

It's a failed box. You already stated this is work you can't do yourself - even with a new box. What are you contemplating using an older, failed box for?

 

[sparky 1971]

as a side-related question to this, is there a preferred brand/model of breaker/box where upgrade issues are minimized in the future?
for example, if I'm replacing a clothes washer and I'm close to retirement and never want to have to buy another before I die, several threads here on GJ recommend going with SpeedQueen. they're not the fanciest or the cheapest, but they last forever! something like this for breakers/boxes?

Square D or Siemens with a copper bus. I've also heard Eaton CH is as good but those are like a unicorn where I am.

 

[MovingAlong]

as a side-related question to this, is there a preferred brand/model of breaker/box where upgrade issues are minimized in the future?
for example, if I'm replacing a clothes washer and I'm close to retirement and never want to have to buy another before I die, several threads here on GJ recommend going with SpeedQueen. they're not the fanciest or the cheapest, but they last forever! something like this for breakers/boxes?

If you're wanting to save your breakers, then compatibility will drive your choices.

If using an electrician, ask what they'll stand behind.

If doing the work yourself, where are you buying your equipment from? Square D is pretty popular.. I'm looking to add a subpanel and will go with Siemens because my main is Siemens. That way I know where to pull a spare breaker from if needed. (used to maintain some rentals, nice when everything matches...)

 

[mm08822]

If the contractor presents it as a repair to the inspector then some of the upgrade requirements may be waived.

Service upgrades in my area require an exterior disconnect, surge suppressor, intersystem bonding block and 2 rods.

Also depends on what the code cycle your area is using.

 

[Bennylava]

Melted components mean the panel is scrap metal, do not attempt to reuse it.

I was just going to keep the metal box for the metal itself. Always wanted to see if I could turn one into a decoy cabinet for storage. Like how you have a fake book on a bookshelf that has a hidden compartment. One of the old breakers could be the latch that opens the front panel, revealing the storage behind it.

Can't answer most of the questions until Tues when they return, but they did say they would upgrade from a 160 amp main breaker, to a 200 amp main breaker. At least maybe I won't flip the main breaker anymore by running my shop AC.

 

[mike93lx]

I was just going to keep the metal box for the metal itself. Always wanted to see if I could turn one into a decoy cabinet for storage. Like how you have a fake book on a bookshelf that has a hidden compartment. One of the old breakers could be the latch that opens the front panel, revealing the storage behind it.

There is no electrician that wants to keep a junk cabinet. I am sure they'll oblige you

 

[Norcal]

Square D or Siemens with a copper bus. I've also heard Eaton CH is as good but those are like a unicorn where I am.

Used to be that the CH line was the best, until they went to a plastic interior to accommodate plug on neutrals.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ah the joys of home ownership. Time for me to cough up 3 grand for a new "panel".

But just out of curiosity, I thought I would stop by and ask what the safety risk is. Apparently the bolt in the right lug wasn't tightened all the way down. This made it get hot, and melt into the plastic panel that insulates everything from the breaker box. I guess the last guy that was in there just didn't tighten it enough. Or maybe the vibration of electricity finally loosened it over the 40 year period it's been there. Either way they're telling me I need to pay $3k in repairs.

when a lug is terminated to the proper torque spec it will not loosen up. not tight enough is just as bad as too tight. there is a reason why every lug has a torque rating and why code now requires torqueing with a calibrated torque wrench

But they've already put it all back together while I decide. I've already decided, I'll have them replace it. That kind of power is nothing to screw around with and I can't do the job myself. But I can't help be curious what would happen if I did nothing. Now that they have tightened up the lug, is the fire risk gone?

why did they even take it apart before you decided? they shouldnt have touched it.... no the risk is not gone. there is no way to get proper torque on a lug that has been heated like that....

I'm hoping that "panel" doesn't just mean the black plastic that the main busses sit on. I hope it means the entire breaker box and all it's contents. Also I want to keep the old breaker box in case I can use it for something else later. I hope they don't think they get to keep it. Any insight into these matters would be greatly appreciated, since this is the first time I've had to deal with any electrical work of consequence. Thanks

what brand and model panel are we talking about here?

can you post some pics? without seeing what has happened its hard to say what can be done.



since the panel is 40+ yrs old, i doubt its worth keeping.... you may be able to find a used panel that you could salvage some parts from to rehab this one if money is an issue....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was just going to keep the metal box for the metal itself. Always wanted to see if I could turn one into a decoy cabinet for storage. Like how you have a fake book on a bookshelf that has a hidden compartment. One of the old breakers could be the latch that opens the front panel, revealing the storage behind it.

Can't answer most of the questions until Tues when they return, but they did say they would upgrade from a 160 amp main breaker, to a 200 amp main breaker. At least maybe I won't flip the main breaker anymore by running my shop AC.

no such thing as a 160a main breaker. Service entrance sizes are 100a 125a, 200a, 400a (320a continuous) and 400a continuous....

If youre tripping the main due to running the AC in your shop, youre likely overloading your service size. you should be doing a load calc before upgrading anything. also, the PoCo may require this before doing a service drop/lateral upgrade and/or meter/meter pan upgrade.... its more involved than just slapping in a larger main service panel. the service entrance wire between the meter pan and new main panel will most likely need to be upgraded as well.

 

[Worsedog]

no such thing as a 160a main breaker. Service entrance sizes are 100a 125a, 200a, 400a (320a continuous) and 400a continuous....

If youre tripping the main due to running the AC in your shop, youre likely overloading your service size. you should be doing a load calc before upgrading anything. also, the PoCo may require this before doing a service drop/lateral upgrade and/or meter/meter pan upgrade.... its more involved than just slapping in a larger main service panel. the service entrance wire between the meter pan and new main panel will most likely need to be upgraded as well.

I'm sure it was just an oversight, but 150 is also common. Just like what's in my Sq. D QO panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm sure it was just an oversight, but 150 is also common. Just like what's in my Sq. D QO panel.

not around here but may be the case in your area.

 

[BrandonV]

when a lug is terminated to the proper torque spec it will not loosen up. not tight enough is just as bad as too tight. there is a reason why every lug has a torque rating and why code now requires torqueing with a calibrated torque wrench

Funny story about that. There was a building where two electricians wired the receptacles in a room that housed laboratory equipment that created quite the vibration while running.

Half of them loosened up the other half were just fine. One of them was using a torque screwdriver.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm sure it was just an oversight, but 150 is also common. Just like what's in my Sq. D QO panel.

I've been twisting wires since 1994 and I have never installed a 150 amp service. In fact, off the top of my head I have only seen two that I can think of.

 

[mm08822]

Arrow-Hart Murray had a 175A 2 pole Main. Red CB and I can't remember for certain if some other sizes were beige.

100 A services became the step-up from 60 A services prevalent in the 50's. Areas with NG/LP probably saw a lot of these 25 A incremental sizes.

 

[Worsedog]

I've been twisting wires since 1994 and I have never installed a 150 amp service. In fact, off the top of my head I have only seen two that I can think of.

Very common in central Florida mid 60's to mid 70's.

 

[Norcal]

Very common in central Florida mid 60's to mid 70'

Never have seen em around here in Northern Ca but loadcenters were available with 150A, & 175A mains, meter mains are another story.

 

[75gmck25]

My old 150 amp panel (rating on the box) was a Square D split-bus panel. Weird setup overall, because IIRC there was no main breaker in the box.

I would recommend a 200 amp Square D QO panel with at least 42 spaces. Price is not extremely high, and it is reliable. However, their estimate/BOM should also include all required breakers.

If you don't already have entrance wire (SER) rated for 200 amps, you will also have to pay for that upgrade. Usually it's not much wire, but you never know.

 

[sparky 1971]

If the contractor presents it as a repair to the inspector then some of the upgrade requirements may be waived.

Service upgrades in my area require an exterior disconnect, surge suppressor, intersystem bonding block and 2 rods.

Also depends on what the code cycle your area is using.

Here's what has to be done for upgrades in about 75% of the areas I cover, with the rural areas under the counties jurisdiction requiring smoke detectors on top of everything else. I try not to do upgrades at all, and if I do, it's somewhere else where it's just the panel and meter setting and maybe adding some GFCI's. I'll leave all of the other b.s. to someone that has younger guys to do all of that crawling around in nasty basements, crawl spaces, and attics.

 

[mm08822]

Here's what has to be done for upgrades in about 75% of the areas I cover, with the rural areas under the counties jurisdiction requiring smoke detectors on top of everything else. I try not to do upgrades at all, and if I do, it's somewhere else where it's just the panel and meter setting and maybe adding some GFCI's. I'll leave all of the other b.s. to someone that has younger guys to do all of that crawling around in nasty basements, crawl spaces, and attics.

Some of that is just recent code for services.

I like the afci upgrade requirement when simply changing out an existing recept! Great way to price a contractor out of getting a simple safety repair done.

 

[sparky 1971]

Some of that is just recent code for services.

Yes, but the rest of the two pages has been in effect for at least 30 years. There are a bunch of houses with Federal and Zinsco panels because the owners can't afford to get rid of them. The last price I heard was before the exterior disconnect and surge suppressor requirement, $11,000 was the low price for a single story with an unfinished basement. Just because a home inspector flagged a Federal panel. I actually looked at that one, but told the sellers I wasn't interested.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Home Inspectors are notorious for flagging everything they don't fully understand (Especially electrical)