Breaker for water heater

[KansasArt]

Installed a new water heater. 4500 watts. Manual specifies that for 240V it needs 10g wire & 25A breaker. Problem is I’m unable to locate a 25A gfci breaker. Have looked online, big box stores, and called the local supply house. No luck. I thought that with 10g wire you used a 30A breaker? Is this calculated differently because it’s a heating element? This a older SQ D box, 1970’s era. Right now I just popped in a plain 30A breaker so we would have hot water. I see 20 & 30A gfci breakers all over the place, just no 25A. Would a 30A breaker be unsafe?

Thanks!

 

[mike93lx]

Does the manual say a minimum of a 25a breaker or that the breaker must be 25a? I bet 25a is the min

30a is fine with the #10 wire

 

[sparky 1971]

What is the brand of the panel? Standard MO for 50+ years has been to use a 30 amp breaker although I know of one jurisdiction that requires a 25. 25 amp GFCI breakers are going to be a supply house or special order item, but I wouldn't consider using one.

EDIT: I didn't have my glasses on and missed the SQD part. Here's the justification for a 25 amp breaker even though I have never done it. 4500/240=18.75X1.25=23.43.

 

[mm08822]

I found that cb online......ranging from $50 to $185.

The instructions require GFCI? And surprized as well about 25A vs 30A!

Pic below provides a few sources......You would need the QO225GFI

 

[RegeSullivan]

As i understand it generally the purpose of a breaker is to protect the wiring not the device. I never saw a 25a breaker on 10/3 NM-b but I've came across a few water heaters improperly installed using 12/3 and a 25a breaker. 12ga will carry 25a NM-b is only rated to 60° where the requirement is 75°.

Any decent supply house will have a 25a if you really want to go that way but I'd stick with 25bif it were mine.

 

[KansasArt]

Instructions don’t specify gfci. Heater located in the basement, so isn’t it required?
All the gfci Sq D breakers I see are either QO or Homeline. My box predates these series by decades. So maybe they don’t make a gfci breaker for a box this old?

 

[mm08822]

As i understand it generally the purpose of a breaker is to protect the wiring not the device. I never saw a 25a breaker on 10/3 NM-b but I've came across a few water heaters improperly installed using 12/3 and a 25a breaker. 12ga will carry 25a NM-b is only rated to 60° where the requirement is 75°.

Any decent supply house will have a 25a if you really want to go that way but I'd stick with 25bif it were mine.

!2 ga CU with 75 or 90C rating only permitted ocp @ 20A unless for dedicated motor or welder circuits.

 

[mm08822]

Instructions don’t specify gfci. Heater located in the basement, so isn’t it required?
All the gfci Sq D breakers I see are either QO or Homeline. My box predates these series by decades. So maybe they don’t make a gfci breaker for a box this old?

Only for receptacles in basement. Heater is hardwired correct?

Take pic of SQ D panel with cover off. If it is not SQ D QO series, then what 30A 2P cb are you using now?

 

[sparky 1971]

Only for receptacles in basement. Heater is hardwired correct?

Take pic of SQ D panel with cover off. If it is not SQ D QO series, then what 30A 2P cb are you using now?

Ya suppose it's old enough to be an XO? I have some of those in the archives left over from replacing the panel.

 

[cgrutt]

I'm not an electrician so take this for what it's worth but don't believe gfci breaker is required or needed for your water heater. Water heater should be hard wired to breaker box. Make sure tank is properly grounded / bonded. Any failure with heating elements should trip breaker via bonded tank. Gfci is needed for outlets in wet locations where appliances are typically connected through corded plugs which may or may not have separate grounds. Difference in potential is much more likely between user and a small corded appliance than a hardwired appliance such as a water heater. Again I'm not an electrician so do your own research or have qualified electrician install it.

 

[Norcal]

Ya suppose it's old enough to be an XO? I have some of those in the archives left over from replacing the panel.

Cutler-Hammer, & SQ D. XO, have been obsolete since around 1960 or earlier.

 

[Norcal]

I'm not an electrician so take this for what it's worth but don't believe gfci breaker is required or needed for your water heater. Water heater should be hard wired to breaker box. Make sure tank is properly grounded / bonded. Any failure with heating elements should trip breaker via bonded tank. Gfci is needed for outlets in wet locations where appliances are typically connected through corded plugs which may or may not have separate grounds. Difference in potential is much more likely between user and a small corded appliance than a hardwired appliance such as a water heater. Again I'm not an electrician so do your own research or have qualified electrician install it.

With the 2023 NEC your statement is way off, GFCI's are being required for appliances that never really have been tested with GFCI protection, it blew up in the NFPA's face when some HVAC equipment would not function with GFCI's.

 

[cgrutt]

With the 2023 NEC your statement is way off, GFCI's are being required for appliances that never really have been tested with GFCI protection, it blew up in the NFPA's face when some HVAC equipment would not function with GFCI's.

Thanks. As stated I'm not an electrician. So is this because there is a safety issue with literally millions of devices that have been installed and in service without need of GFCI protection or a case of more regulation?

 

[cgrutt]

With the 2023 NEC your statement is way off, GFCI's are being required for appliances that never really have been tested with GFCI protection, it blew up in the NFPA's face when some HVAC equipment would not function with GFCI's.

I just reviewed 2023 NEC and still don't see GFCI being required for a water heater. Assuming appliances covered by 210.8(d) is what you're referring to? Not challenging you just trying to understand if it's needed or not. Thanks.

This is what I'm looking at:

This section was modified to ensure that the GFCI protection for appliances rated 150 V or less to ground and 60 A or less, single- or three-phase is placed in the branch circuit either at the breaker, the receptacle, or some other location upstream of the outlet to which the appliance is hardwired into the circuit. This provision is for the branch circuit supplying the appliance regardless of whether or not it is cord-and-plugged connected or hardwired. The hazard is the same in both cases.

The list of appliances includes:

• Automotive vacuum machines

• Drinking water coolers and bottle fill stations

• High-pressure spray washing machines

• Tire inflation machines

• Vending machines

• Sump pumps

• Dishwashers

• Electric ranges

• Wall-mounted ovens

• Counter-mounted cooking units

• Clothes dryers

• Microwave ovens

 

[PCustoms]

I'd assume that if OP is replacing a water heater on this old of a house that NEC 2023 wouldn't be applicable?

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks. As stated I'm not an electrician. So is this because there is a safety issue with literally millions of devices that have been installed and in service without need of GFCI protection or a case of more regulation?

It's the latter. AFCI and GFCI protection for everything isn't too far away. And I don't think hardwired water heaters are on the 2023 GFCI list yet but I haven't gotten around to buying a code book and won't until an adoption date has been set.

 

[dcg9381]

I'd assume that if OP is replacing a water heater on this old of a house that NEC 2023 wouldn't be applicable?

Depends on where he is. Some areas that requires a permit/inspection and bringing new work "up to code":



Not suggesting that we actually follow the rules on permitting here.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd assume that if OP is replacing a water heater on this old of a house that NEC 2023 wouldn't be applicable?

If a new circuit was installed for it, it's supposed to be compliant with whatever code cycle his area is on, but honestly, nobody does that unless a permit has been pulled and that is rarely, if ever, done for replacement. It might just be me, but the fact he stated that he popped a 30 amp breaker in instead of using the old breaker makes me wonder if it used to have a gas heater. The prices of gas water heaters have led to a lot of electric replacements getting installed, but then the cost of heating the water goes up a lot.

 

[PCustoms]

If a new circuit was installed for it, it's supposed to be compliant with whatever code cycle his area is on, but honestly, nobody does that unless a permit has been pulled and that is rarely, if ever, done for replacement. It might just be me, but the fact he stated that he popped a 30 amp breaker in instead of using the old breaker makes me wonder if it used to have a gas heater. The prices of gas water heaters have led to a lot of electric replacements getting installed, but then the cost of heating the water goes up a lot.

Fair enough, I was thinking he swapped an electric for an electric.

 

[sparky 1971]

Fair enough, I was thinking he swapped an electric for an electric.

Could be and it wasn't worded in a way I could understand.

 

[mm08822]

I had to add a disconnect at the electric water heater for an existing 30A ckt so it would pass.

 

[mm08822]

It's the latter. AFCI and GFCI protection for everything isn't too far away. And I don't think hardwired water heaters are on the 2023 GFCI list yet but I haven't gotten around to buying a code book and won't until an adoption date has been set.

They are not.

I agree, we are a few cycles away from all afci and gfci protection for everything as the norm. And then the exceptions to that requirement will trickle in as stuff blows up or can't run......like welders.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not an electrician so take this for what it's worth but don't believe gfci breaker is required or needed for your water heater. Water heater should be hard wired to breaker box. Make sure tank is properly grounded / bonded. Any failure with heating elements should trip breaker via bonded tank. Gfci is needed for outlets in wet locations where appliances are typically connected through corded plugs which may or may not have separate grounds. Difference in potential is much more likely between user and a small corded appliance than a hardwired appliance such as a water heater. Again I'm not an electrician so do your own research or have qualified electrician install it.

youre not an electrician but you do understand the principles very well i see

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks. As stated I'm not an electrician. So is this because there is a safety issue with literally millions of devices that have been installed and in service without need of GFCI protection or a case of more regulation?

no it stems from the improper connection of an air conditioning compressor (someone didnt connect the EGC) and the chassis became energized. this in turn caused someone to get electrocuted. IIRC it was a kid.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'd assume that if OP is replacing a water heater on this old of a house that NEC 2023 wouldn't be applicable?

depends on which code his state has adopted. also i dont believe hard wired water heaters are required to be GFCI protected. but im sure its coming, especially if someone improperly connects one and the tank gets energized causing someone to get electrocuted

 

[Norcal]

I had to add a disconnect at the electric water heater for an existing 30A ckt so it would pass.

A circuit breaker lockout accessory is a simple & code compliant method also.

 

[KansasArt]

Hey guys! @sparky 1971 is correct. Previous heater was gas. Gas replacement >$1100. Electric $499. No flue in the house so gas must have a powered exhaust for the C0.
Yes, energy cost will be higher with electric. But in a few months it will just be momma & I here. So the difference will be negligible, maybe $100 a year based on the energy cost published in the store. Plus I had the 30a breaker & 10/2 NM-B left over from a heat pump installation.
Now to explain why I was confused as to the model of breakers in my box. When I needed a breaker I went to the local lumber yard. Not one of 3 big box stores. They have the breakers sitting on the shelf with just the tops of the box cut off. Sorted by brand/model. I knew which group fit mine. I just grabbed what I needed and they were the right ones. I was under the wrong impression that the QO & Homeline series were both recent additions to their lineup. With one being a lesser expensive option and one being a more expensive alternative. That’s why I thought mine were pre QO. Didn’t realize QO was started in the 60’s. (I think). Mine is definitely QO.
Sorry for being so long winded, just wanted to explain why I thought like I did. As far as GFCI goes, I will eventually put that breaker in. Even if not required yet. I appreciate all the feedback & advice! Thank-you!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yeah QO only goes in QO panels. Homeline only goes in homeline panels

 

[Norcal]

Hey guys! @sparky 1971 is correct. Previous heater was gas. Gas replacement >$1100. Electric $499. No flue in the house so gas must have a powered exhaust for the C0.
Yes, energy cost will be higher with electric. But in a few months it will just be momma & I here. So the difference will be negligible, maybe $100 a year based on the energy cost published in the store. Plus I had the 30a breaker & 10/2 NM-B left over from a heat pump installation.
Now to explain why I was confused as to the model of breakers in my box. When I needed a breaker I went to the local lumber yard. Not one of 3 big box stores. They have the breakers sitting on the shelf with just the tops of the box cut off. Sorted by brand/model. I knew which group fit mine. I just grabbed what I needed and they were the right ones. I was under the wrong impression that the QO & Homeline series were both recent additions to their lineup. With one being a lesser expensive option and one being a more expensive alternative. That’s why I thought mine were pre QO. Didn’t realize QO was started in the 60’s. (I think). Mine is definitely QO.
Sorry for being so long winded, just wanted to explain why I thought like I did. As far as GFCI goes, I will eventually put that breaker in. Even if not required yet. I appreciate all the feedback & advice! Thank-you!

QO dates to the late 1950's, when SQ D, & Cutler-Hammer, replaced the XO, line with QO, & CH, products.

 

[75gmck25]

If you want to save a little with a hot water heater, install one of the simple mechanical WH timer switches (Intermatic, etc.) that have been around for years.

You can turn the WH on in the morning for about 2 hours to cover morning showers and getting ready for work, and then on again for about two hours in the evening to cover dinner prep and evening showers. You only burn electricity for about 4 hours a day. Most of the timers also have a bypass switch to turn it on temporarily if you need it running for a little extra time..

 

[KansasArt]

I will look into that. Thanks!

 

[fitter30]

Water heater heater doesn't need GFCI protection as long as it hard wired

 

[Norcal]

Water heater heater doesn't need GFCI protection as long as it hard wired

Water heaters are not normally cord & plug connected.