the breaker for my garage outlets keeps tripping while i'm welding. i've been welding in there for years w/out ever tripping it before.. why would it do it now? i can lay about a 2" bead before it trips. sometimes it'll trip even when i'm not actually welding, but the welder is powered on. like after i finish a small 2-3" bead.. 4 or 5 seconds after i'm done, it trips. maybe the breaker is going bad? like i said, i've been welding in my garage for years and never tripped it before. any thoughts?
Breaker keeps tripping
- Thread starter dt5150
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RPH
Well-known member
They do go bad but check for loose connections first. Then replace it.
toolman1967
Well-known member
I agree. There might be something else running on that circuit that you didnt realize, but breakers get weak sometimes. Check whats running on that circuit, check the connections for tightness and replace the breaker.
ok, thanks for the suggestion. as far as i can tell, based on what goes out and what stays on when it trips, this one breaker only supports the outlets in the garage. there are 4 of them, 2 on the walls and 2 on the ceiling for the garage doors.
Is this a wire feed (Mig) welder or a stick? Are you running a 120 or 240 volt welder. I'm going to guess your running a small mig (120) on regular garage circuits. Is it a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit? if it is Mig? Sometimes, Migs will have some minor electrical glitches after a while and the gun stays hot even though the trigger isn't pulled, they'll manifest itself in what you are describing. Let us know what you determine so far and we'll go from there.
Cheers,
Jim Don
Cheers,
Jim Don
yup, 110v mig (lincoln pro-mig 140) on a 15 amp curcuit. i haven't noticed the gun staying hot though. i'm pretty sure lincoln says to use it on a 20 amp circuit, but 15 is what i have. but like i said, it's never tripped before. sometimes it trips mid-bead, sometimes after i'm done.
what i'd like to do is run a dedicated 220 line out there.. buy a bigger welder
the problem would be getting the line out there. the panel is in the basement. the garage is attached to the house via a mud room. running the line out there could be tricky. i think i can access the underside of the mudroom.. if i can, i could run the line right out the basement, under the mudroom and into the garage. that'd be nice..
what i'd like to do is run a dedicated 220 line out there.. buy a bigger welder
the problem would be getting the line out there. the panel is in the basement. the garage is attached to the house via a mud room. running the line out there could be tricky. i think i can access the underside of the mudroom.. if i can, i could run the line right out the basement, under the mudroom and into the garage. that'd be nice..while it may be the gun, the likelihood is that that 15 amp breaker is about to or has gone bad since it's been pushed to its max. For a quick fix, swap out the breaker with a new one. Get a 15 amp though, don't try to put a 20 amp in there because that is a no no. A new 15 amp should solve the problem until you go the next step and it's not going to cost you an arm and a leg. Next thing I'd do , if you don't have coins for a 240 volt dedicated circuit, is run a simple dedicated 20 amp, 120 volt line out to the garage. That way you can keep your Pro Mig longer, and still get use out of it. If you can, find a 20 amp circuit somewhere, make sure there is nothing else on it, like a frig, run your mig off it and see if that trips too. That would narrow it down to the welder instead of the breaker, but my money right now is on the breaker going. How old is the panel and the breakers in it. If it's relatively new, that's a factor, if the house is like 45 years old, you could be getting to end of lifespan of some of those circuits. Nothing unusual and nothing to fret about. Hope this helps.
Jim
Jim
LEVE
Well-known member
You say that all the outlets are on once circuit, the one that trips? How is the wire run to the outlets? Is the wire run to the screws on the side of the outlets, or are they pushed into the outlets?
Here's how I'd look at the problem:
That's the fastest way you can find the location of the problem.
Here's how I'd look at the problem:
- Can you swap breakers as a test to see if the breaker is weak? This may call for a new breaker. Then,
- I think I'd look at how the circuit runs around the garage,
- from what outlet to what outlet.
- Then I'd take the distance from the breaker box and to the furthermost outlet and divide the circuit in half
- plug the welder into the outlet nearest to half way between the last outlet and the breaker.
- Then do a weld... and
- see if the breaker trips.
That's the fastest way you can find the location of the problem.
thanks for the suggestions guys. the house was built in 06 so everything is fairly new. to start, i'm going to figure out what ga. wire it is. since they're 15a breakers, i'm guessing it's 14 ga. but i don't know for sure. i'll look though. if it's 14, i'll swap the breaker out for another one, a 15amp, do some welding, and see if it trips. if it doesn't, i guess i found my problem.
if it's 12 ga. wire, i should be able to swap in a 20a breaker, no?
not sure how the outlets are physically connected, i haven't taken anything apart. i'm guessing the wires are screwed on to the side. they're both gfi's btw. and they both trip, so it isn't one outlet that has a problem. fwiw, the gfi on the outlet doesn't trip, the breaker in the panel does.
if it's 12 ga. wire, i should be able to swap in a 20a breaker, no?
not sure how the outlets are physically connected, i haven't taken anything apart. i'm guessing the wires are screwed on to the side. they're both gfi's btw. and they both trip, so it isn't one outlet that has a problem. fwiw, the gfi on the outlet doesn't trip, the breaker in the panel does.
If it's 12 gauge wire you can swap in a 20 amp breaker, but I doubt it is. The sparky who put that together originally would have matched up the right breaker with the right size wire, but anything is possible. Has anything been added to that circuit, refrig, any kind of motor, lights, etc. or is it just the receps? You could also check to make sure the hot, neutral and ground connections for that circuit inside the panel are all nice and tight. Lot of times the heat, cool, heat, cool cycling will result in the screw terminals being loose. Tighten them all down and see what happens. Also, pull that recep apart that your welder is plugged into and do the same. Also check to see if it is backstabbed or screwed on via the screw terminals. I hate those backstabs, they're worthless. Keep posting and let us know what you find out. If you're welding and that is a GFCI circuit, I would highly doubt there is a problem with the welder -- as in a short in the gun. That GFCI would be tripping immediately.
JimDon
JimDon
May Pop
Well-known member
Is the garage in pipe or romex? If pipe you can pull in a new set of wire to upgrade to 20 amps.
Ron
Ron
He's talking about the difference between the wires being inside thinwall conduit called "pipe" in the trade. It will be a hollow, metal tube and it will have stranded wires inside without a sheath or outer cable. Romex is the generic term given to electrical cable that it used indoors instead of putting everything into pipe or conduit. It will have a heavier, usually white, sometimes yellow, outer layer that is easily stripped away. Inside there will be three wires, a black, a white (neutral) and the bare ground wire which does not have insulation on it. The three inside are SOLID, not stranded. The three wires will have a paper layer wrapped around them that's underneath the outer layer. Hope this explains the difference. If you google Romex, I'm sure you'll get a pix of it. Otherwise, just look in your basement where the wires are run and you'll see it. Depending upon how old you are and how long you have been in the business, you might see the romex outer shield be white, yellow, black, brown, muddy lookin' non-descript ****, or even (God forbid) fabric that looks like a wide-weave canvas. Now, the romex that is white is usually 15 amp, 14 gauge, while the yellow, USUALLy is 12 gauge, 15 amp. But always look at the writing on the cable itself to determine the gauge and amperage. I've pulled in miles and miles and miles of the white stuff that was all 12 gauge.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
"if it's 12 ga. wire, i should be able to swap in a 20a breaker, no?"
Make darn sure the whole circuit is 12 ga. before swapping to a 20A breaker. I once talked with an EE who designed electrical plans, regarding this topic. He indicated sometimes for long runs, they'd use 12 ga. for part of the run to minimize voltage drop and then step down to 14 ga. to save cost. Seems like a cheap/crappy way to do it, but it indicated it was allowed.
Also for a 20a circuit, any receps would need to be 20a, along w/ any light switches that may be on the circuit.
Make darn sure the whole circuit is 12 ga. before swapping to a 20A breaker. I once talked with an EE who designed electrical plans, regarding this topic. He indicated sometimes for long runs, they'd use 12 ga. for part of the run to minimize voltage drop and then step down to 14 ga. to save cost. Seems like a cheap/crappy way to do it, but it indicated it was allowed.
Also for a 20a circuit, any receps would need to be 20a, along w/ any light switches that may be on the circuit.
Gary S
Well-known member
I totally agree. My little Lincoln calls for a dedicated 20 amp circuit. No 15 amp circuit is recommended, and no shared circuit with anything else. Running it on a 15 amp circuit is likely eating up the breaker and running the wire up to its limit all the time.
Do it right. Run a dedicated 20 amp circuit and be happy.
I ran six 20amp circuits along the walls in my garage so I can roll my welder anywhere in there, plug it in, and weld with no worries about circuit overload.
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
Not true. Code allows the use of 15 amp receptacles and devices on 20 amp circuits provided that there is more than one single receptacle. A lone duplex receptacle on a circuit is considered two and may be a 15 amp if desired. If you use a single receptacle (those round ones) it would need to be 20 amp if the breaker was 20, and there were no other receptacles on the circuit.
NEC 210.21
Charles
ddawg16
Well-known member
Confirm it's the breaker and not the GFCI? Even in 06, I believe all garage outlets had to be protected by GFIC's.
Gary S
Well-known member
My Lincoln wire feed works just fine on GFCIs. All my circuits have GFCI protection and it is not a problem welding with a 20amp circuit.
ishiboo
Well-known member
A welder "can" work fine on GFCI's, probably depends on your operating voltage and your conductivity to ground. This would be something I'd check, you may be leaking current to ground through moist concrete if you're welding on the ground or a metal table. Worth checking before you pop for a new breaker
Verify your ground clamp is CLEAN and firmly attached to a clean area as well.toolman1967
Well-known member
Good feedback here. dont run a 20 amp breaker with 14 ga wire, just not worth the possible problems. Open a few of the outlets on the circuit that trips and see if it is 12 or 14. then you can change the breaker if it is 12 ga wire. I had the same problem with my first 110 wire feed welder and I just ended up running a new line for the welder.
"Not true. Code allows the use of 15 amp receptacles and devices on 20 amp circuits provided that there is more than one single receptacle"
Charles, thanks for correcting my error, but it's codes like this that make no sense to me.
Intuitively, circuits should be fused below their weakest link. Do you know the rationale why the NEC would allow a 15a outlet on a 20a circuit, when clearly the outlet is weaker than the overload protection?
Charles, thanks for correcting my error, but it's codes like this that make no sense to me.
Intuitively, circuits should be fused below their weakest link. Do you know the rationale why the NEC would allow a 15a outlet on a 20a circuit, when clearly the outlet is weaker than the overload protection?
kmacht
Well-known member
Have you seen any mice or found any evidence of them in your garage? They are notorious for knawing on wires. If you swap out the breaker for a new one and it still trips I would say it is time to run new wire.
Keith
Keith
great info here guys, many thanks. i haven't had the chance to dig into this further quite yet, but i will soon. i need to finish up this table project so i can park in the garage again!
there have been mice in there before, yes. another thing i will certainly look for.
there have been mice in there before, yes. another thing i will certainly look for.
Paul, we are mis-communicating, and it's probably because my writing skills are lacking. Let me try again.
You say,"You cannot plug a 20amp male into a 15 amp female."
I'm saying you can plug a 20a male into a 15a female.
A 110v 20a suitcase mig welder has a standard 110v plug that will fit into a typical 15a recep in a home. I've seen them and used to own one, the plug looks just like the plug on your coffee maker. Similarly, a 110v 20a compressor has the same standard plug.
If a home had a 15a recep on a 20a breaker (as is legal according to Charles) then my thought would be a 15a recep would heat up.
What I'm trying to say is I don't see any safety measure to keep one from plugging a 20a device in a 20a circuit w/ a 15a recep.
You say,"You cannot plug a 20amp male into a 15 amp female."
I'm saying you can plug a 20a male into a 15a female.
A 110v 20a suitcase mig welder has a standard 110v plug that will fit into a typical 15a recep in a home. I've seen them and used to own one, the plug looks just like the plug on your coffee maker. Similarly, a 110v 20a compressor has the same standard plug.
If a home had a 15a recep on a 20a breaker (as is legal according to Charles) then my thought would be a 15a recep would heat up.
What I'm trying to say is I don't see any safety measure to keep one from plugging a 20a device in a 20a circuit w/ a 15a recep.
Milton Shaw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 4,835
Some of the brands of breakers trip well before the 15 amp rating. So go with a name brand breaker and replace that one. I have seen microwaves trip 20 amp breakers before they blow the 15 amp fuse inside the microwave. Its because the breaker was so cheap. Breakers are less than $10 for most of them so head to the electrical supply house for a good one. (not Home depot or lowes)
cdenton
Member
Goto Harborfreight and get one of these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-clamp-meter-96308.html
Sometimes you can get it for $8. Now you can actually test the circuit and see how much current you are drawing.
Now, current is not the only determining factor in wire size. Due to the resistance of the wire there can be a voltage drop at longer runs necessitating the use of larger wire. So, just because you have x size wire does not mean you should up the size of your breaker (not dangerous, but ...)
I think you're best bet is to see where you are then decide what you should do about it.
p.s. the clamp on meter is nice since it is easy to install it for testing current. You will need to be able to clamp over the hot wire to run your test.
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-clamp-meter-96308.html
Sometimes you can get it for $8. Now you can actually test the circuit and see how much current you are drawing.
Now, current is not the only determining factor in wire size. Due to the resistance of the wire there can be a voltage drop at longer runs necessitating the use of larger wire. So, just because you have x size wire does not mean you should up the size of your breaker (not dangerous, but ...)
I think you're best bet is to see where you are then decide what you should do about it.
p.s. the clamp on meter is nice since it is easy to install it for testing current. You will need to be able to clamp over the hot wire to run your test.
Gooch
Well-known member
If they have a molded cord end, then the manufacturer and UL are saying that under full load that it won't draw more than 15 amps.
Not to say that someone didn't cut the cord end off and put a 15 Amp cord end on.
I understood what you are saying.
You cannot have a 20amp product legally having a 15amp male end. That is dangerous. Having a 20 amp draw on a 15amp circuit will overheat the wires and trip the 15 amp breaker (hopefully).
Here is a link to the welder I'm talking about:
http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/handler140/
The factory plug fits into a 15a recep. Part of the confusion is that Hobart lists it as a 20a draw, but indicates the CSA rating is only 15a. What kind of double speak is that? Whatever they say, this welder will pop a 15a breaker under full load. I remember when I bought it, the welding supply rep told me these welders need a 20a circuit, and indeed that was my experience.
Regarding the compressor, I've used 2 construction site compressors (the double tank type) that could be wired 220V or 110v. They could easily run two nail guns. The 110V cord on both compressors was a standard 15A type plug (I know the plug was original equipment on at least one of the compressors) but both compressors would open a 15A breaker at startup. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the input amps was listed at 20 on both compressors. But maybe they got around the problem by getting the CSA to rate them at 15a, just like Hobart.
http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/handler140/
The factory plug fits into a 15a recep. Part of the confusion is that Hobart lists it as a 20a draw, but indicates the CSA rating is only 15a. What kind of double speak is that? Whatever they say, this welder will pop a 15a breaker under full load. I remember when I bought it, the welding supply rep told me these welders need a 20a circuit, and indeed that was my experience.
Regarding the compressor, I've used 2 construction site compressors (the double tank type) that could be wired 220V or 110v. They could easily run two nail guns. The 110V cord on both compressors was a standard 15A type plug (I know the plug was original equipment on at least one of the compressors) but both compressors would open a 15A breaker at startup. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the input amps was listed at 20 on both compressors. But maybe they got around the problem by getting the CSA to rate them at 15a, just like Hobart.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Portable compressors are frequently an issue a job sites. You don't know if there are other items on the circuit or if you are getting true "line voltage".
If the CSA rates it at 15A, I'm sure it's maximum draw is 15A, assuming of course that the motor is is good shape. (CSA is typically tougher than UL.)
If the CSA rates it at 15A, I'm sure it's maximum draw is 15A, assuming of course that the motor is is good shape. (CSA is typically tougher than UL.)
well, i finally got some time to do a little troubleshooting on this. i looked everything over closely but couldn't find anything wrong, so i figured i'd try a new breaker. they're only 3 bucks.. at first i thought it did the trick, but no. i still tripped. so after going from the garage to the basement 6 or 7 times to reset it, i finally had enough. i made myself a list and headed to the store to get my supplies. some 12 ga. wire, a 20 amp breaker, a box, and a new 20a gfi outlet. it was a little tricky running the line, but i got it done. now i have a dedicated 12ga. line on a 20a breaker to a 20a gfi outlet just for my welder. works great! it welds better than ever actually, now that it's getting the proper juice. problem solved.
Warrenator
Well-known member
I'm surprised nobody suggested using a clamp-on ammeter to see how much current the welder is actually drawing......
Motofixxer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2009
- Messages
- 681
Double check all your wiring and connections at outlets\switches, and replace your breaker. Run a new dedicated 20a circuit. If you have access issues through mudroom you can always run some conduit outside along underside of siding or something. There is always a way.