Breaker Locations \ Gen Hookup

[pcpro15]

Due to recent long term power outages caused by ice, we finally invested in a small generator. I want to do a correct installation, and I plan to use an interlock kit with my panel which I purchased this morning. I need to free up the first two positions on the right in my panel. I already have the 30A breaker, and 10/3 ready to go.

When looking at my panel I have a single pole GFI in both top spots (left and right). Underneath the GFI on the right, I have a double pole 20A for the well.

I am confident in moving the wires and breakers to free those spots, but also want to make sure I am not missing a "rule of thumb" or anything. Should I keep the well breaker near the top of the panel if possible, or does breaker position really not matter.

Just want to make sure it ok to pull the well breaker out, and move the gfi down two slots? Then move the well breaker towards the bottom of the panel.

Also for an exterior hookup, would you recommend this?

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...&catalogId=10051&productId=4326713&cId=detail

Thank you for any help you can provide!

 

[Alchymist]

Shouldn't be a problem, 240v dual breakers utilize both buss rails, and your single breaker stays on the same buss, so essentially nothing changes loading wise.

 

[pcpro15]

Perfect, thank you for your help

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Here's mine. I had to shuffle some stuff around to get the genny breaker where I needed it. It's really easy to do. I like labels on my panel as you can see.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I did sink and 8ft copper grounding rod in right outside the garage door. My panel, sub panel, and genny hookup are all together in the front corner of the garage. I wanted everything close by. I run everything except my (2) two ton ac units. Don't really care about ac in the summer if we lose power. My main issue is heat in the winter. When we lose power you can hardly hear the gen and just about everything is going like normal. Granted I have natural gas which helps a lot with heating vs electric. I have gone a little over 3hrs on the genny during an outage.

***the outlet with the flexible conduit is the genny plug in the bottom of the pic.

 

[Alchymist]

Forgot to mention - your genset should not have the neutral and chassis ground bonded, and should use a 4 wire feed. Some localities will require a ground rod at the generator also.

 

[volleyball]

I am thinking he is talking about a portable generator, hence the plug.

 

[Alchymist]

I am thinking he is talking about a portable generator, hence the plug.

Portable or not, if the"transfer switch" (in this case, lockout on breakers) does not transfer the neutral, the genset neutral and EGC must be separate.

 

[pcpro15]

Portable or not, if the"transfer switch" (in this case, lockout on breakers) does not transfer the neutral, the genset neutral and EGC must be separate.

It is a portable 6.5kw unit with a 4wire twist lock 240 connection. The ground is separate from the neutral at the generator, and the wire coming back to the panel. Should the neutral and ground both be at the bus bar, or are you saying something else needs to be done. The interlock does not change the neutral, just the two hots with the breaker.

 

[Alchymist]

It is a portable 6.5kw unit with a 4wire twist lock 240 connection. The ground is separate from the neutral at the generator, and the wire coming back to the panel. Should the neutral and ground both be at the bus bar, or are you saying something else needs to be done. The interlock does not change the neutral, just the two hots with the breaker.

Sounds like you are good to go. Neutral and ground are bonded in only one location - the main panel. Was just a cautionary post, as having the neutral and ground tied at the generator without a transfer switch to break the neutral along with the two hots is a common mistake.

 

[pcpro15]

I take that back I wanted to double check in the manual just to make sure, and it does say the are bonded. If there is a four wire connection including ground, why is it bonded?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[Bmwsyc]

It is bonded for use as a portable power source...so that a ground fault will trip the over current protection. In a ground fault, the bonding will provide a current path back to the source. When hooked to a house and the grounded (neutral) is not switched with the transfer device, you would have a parallel path (neutral and ground) between the generator and the service, which would allow current flow during normal conditions on the ground wire...not something you want to happen.

 

[pcpro15]

I'm glad I made the post to ask... but now I am afraid to ask what the reasonable solution is. I do not want to separate the bond in the generator just in case it is used elsewhere... (it is portable after all )

There is an interesting post about this under Q&A (not my generator model)

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-5802-Portable-Generator/p4580.html

 

[Alchymist]

What Bmwsyc said ^^^

You will have to figure out how to disconnect the neutral from the chassis on the generator. Should be instructions in the owner's manual, if not , call their customer service center.

 

[Alchymist]

I'm glad I made the post to ask... but now I am afraid to ask what the reasonable solution is. I do not want to separate the bond in the generator just in case it is used elsewhere... (it is portable after all )

There is an interesting post about this under Q&A (not my generator model)

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-5802-Portable-Generator/p4580.html

I read the Q&A about neutral bonding - what a bunch of double talk. More spin than a Maytag washing machine.

Try this:
http://www.claremontnh.com/uploads/pdf/GeneratorInstall.pdf

 

[2ManyProjects]

Due to recent long term power outages caused by ice, we finally invested in a small generator.

I gather that you are in the Northeast USA.

I want to do a correct installation, and I plan to use an interlock kit with my panel which I purchased this morning. I need to free up the first two positions on the right in my panel. I already have the 30A breaker, and 10/3 ready to go.

When looking at my panel I have a single pole GFI in both top spots (left and right). Underneath the GFI on the right, I have a double pole 20A for the well.

What is in the second and third slots down on the left side? And for that matter, the fourth slot down on both sides?

I am confident in moving the wires and breakers to free those spots, but also want to make sure I am not missing a "rule of thumb" or anything. Should I keep the well breaker near the top of the panel if possible, or does breaker position really not matter.

AFAIK, it doesn't really matter except in the case of such things as your interlock kit, which presumes and requires a certain geometry between the Main breaker and the interlocked breaker. HOWEVER... There remain two possible "gotcha"s:

1. - Depending on how the original panel installation was done, you MAY not have sufficient "slack" in the wires connected to each breaker to move them more than one or two slots. No way to predict this until you remove the panel cover and inspect things for yourself.

2. - In SOME cases, you may want to maintain the same relative bank/phase assignments for some of those single-pole breakers which will inevitably get moved around to make space. Such as, for example, in the case of having the lighting and/or general-purpose 120V outlets in your garage split between two branch circuits; ideally, you want each half of those "pairs" to be on opposite phases. Conversely, a friend of mine set up a small music studio in his basement, which of course has LOTS of amplifiers, mixers, recording devices, etc., both plugged into various outlets AND interconnected in various ad hoc (and often far from ideal) ways due to all the signal cables involved, by the time the whole band gets going. In THAT case, I advised him to keep ALL the outlets fed from the SAME phase in the panel, so as to help avoid hum & noise (due in part to ground loops).

Also for an exterior hookup, would you recommend this?

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...&catalogId=10051&productId=4326713&cId=detail

In and of itself, that's fine, presuming the maximum output of your generator is under 30A (possibly under 24A; I'm not sure if the "80% rule" for continuous loads applies here). But do make sure to install it as close as possible to where the generator will be placed when in operation, so as to shorten the length of the "shore power" cord needed. That location also needs to NOT be in any sort of even semi-enclosed area (garage, carport, porch, etc.), AND well away from any doors, windows, or other potential paths for air ingress into the house. Remember, you may well have a power outage in the middle of Summer, and therefore be running the generator with the house as wide-open as you can make it due to not being able to run your air conditioning.

 

[Alchymist]

I gather that you are in the Northeast USA.



What is in the second and third slots down on the left side? And for that matter, the fourth slot down on both sides?
Immaterial to what he's doing.


AFAIK, it doesn't really matter except in the case of such things as your interlock kit, which presumes and requires a certain geometry between the Main breaker and the interlocked breaker.
Already stated how it's installed. (See OP).

HOWEVER... There remain two possible "gotcha"s:

1. - Depending on how the original panel installation was done, you MAY not have sufficient "slack" in the wires connected to each breaker to move them more than one or two slots. No way to predict this until you remove the panel cover and inspect things for yourself.

2. - In SOME cases, you may want to maintain the same relative bank/phase assignments for some of those single-pole breakers which will inevitably get moved around to make space.
See post #2]. No change for what he said he was doing.

Such as, for example, in the case of having the lighting and/or general-purpose 120V outlets in your garage split between two branch circuits; ideally, you want each half of those "pairs" to be on opposite phases. Conversely, a friend of mine set up a small music studio in his basement, which of course has LOTS of amplifiers, mixers, recording devices, etc., both plugged into various outlets AND interconnected in various ad hoc (and often far from ideal) ways due to all the signal cables involved, by the time the whole band gets going. In THAT case, I advised him to keep ALL the outlets fed from the SAME phase in the panel, so as to help avoid hum & noise (due in part to ground loops).
Long way from what OP is doing.


In and of itself, that's fine, presuming the maximum output of your generator is under 30A (possibly under 24A; I'm not sure if the "80% rule" for continuous loads applies here). But do make sure to install it as close as possible to where the generator will be placed when in operation, so as to shorten the length of the "shore power" cord needed. That location also needs to NOT be in any sort of even semi-enclosed area (garage, carport, porch, etc.), AND well away from any doors, windows, or other potential paths for air ingress into the house. Remember, you may well have a power outage in the middle of Summer, and therefore be running the generator with the house as wide-open as you can make it due to not being able to run your air conditioning.

....................................

 

[pattenp]

As far as the neutral and ground being bonded in the generator.... you should be able to open up the outlet panel on the gen and find a jumper at one of the outlets that connect the ground and neutral together. Just remove that jumper wire. Make up a 120V plug with the neutral and ground connected together and plug it into one of your single sockets to reestablish the bond when using the gen not connected to the house. Place a label on the gen stating it has an unbonded neutral and to use the bonding plug.

 

[Mustang51js]

I don't think he needs to mess around with separating wires an such,technically there is no ground on the portable generator unless you run a wire to the ground rod. So he would be using the ground from the panel that's pre existing. If you start taking wires apart in the generator then you run the risk of them saying you did something wrong if it breaks. Unless there's something in the manual that has directions for it.

 

[Alchymist]

I don't think he needs to mess around with separating wires an such,technically there is no ground on the portable generator unless you run a wire to the ground rod. So he would be using the ground from the panel that's pre existing. If you start taking wires apart in the generator then you run the risk of them saying you did something wrong if it breaks. Unless there's something in the manual that has directions for it.

So many directions on this thread that just isn't so. Nobody says anyone has to un-bond their generator - except NEC and a few other regulatory bodies. Nobody says you can't backfeed your house either - just don't get caught, either by the AHJ or an accident......Why can't we all play by the rules?

PS: You left out the period after the word think.

 

[pattenp]

When using a portable gen there is an equipment ground that runs to the house along with a neutral. When used for providing power to a house the ground and neutral should be unbonded at the gen. Usually the instructions provided with the gen will make reference to this. My gen instructions don't give directions on how to unbond the ground and neutral. The instructions say to call technical assistance or take the gen an authorized service/dealer to have the bonding removed. To repeat.. the neutral and ground should only be bonded at one spot, at the main service panel/main disconnect.

I don't think he needs to mess around with separating wires an such,technically there is no ground on the portable generator unless you run a wire to the ground rod. So he would be using the ground from the panel that's pre existing. If you start taking wires apart in the generator then you run the risk of them saying you did something wrong if it breaks. Unless there's something in the manual that has directions for it.

 

[Mustang51js]

What I was trying to say is there really isn't a ground on the portable generator. I mean really you could say the gen is the service breaker and would have to disconnect the neutral and ground on the panel, but you know that wouldn't happen. I get what your saying with the bond on the generator because it gives the possibility of back feeding onto the chassis ground if the neutral came disconnected from the gen.

 

[Mustang51js]

So many directions on this thread that just isn't so. Nobody says anyone has to un-bond their generator - except NEC and a few other regulatory bodies. Nobody says you can't backfeed your house either - just don't get caught, either by the AHJ or an accident......Why can't we all play by the rules?

PS: You left out the period after the word think.

You may think I don't know what I'm talking about about but I've prob hooked up a lot more portable generators and whole house generators than you have seen and all passed inspection,and each town around here has different inspectors so it's not just some buddy of mine passing me. I gotta start looking at the 2014 code to get up to speed with the new adoptions coming soon.

 

[Alchymist]

You may think I don't know what I'm talking about about but I've prob hooked up a lot more portable generators and whole house generators than you have seen and all passed inspection,and each town around here has different inspectors so it's not just some buddy of mine passing me. I gotta start looking at the 2014 code to get up to speed with the new adoptions coming soon.

I don't care how many generators you have hooked up,

"I don't think he needs to mess around with separating wires an such......"

Is obviously and patently wrong.......

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I am not an expert by any means. My gen has a seperate grounding lug for when I connect to the house. I run a cable from the lug to my grounding rod. Just about everyone on my street has a portable gen that they connect to their house like I do. We all use the interlock kit vs a transfer switch. None of my neighbors had to change the bonding on their gen. Only 2 others use a rod like I do. The rest just plug it in and run it. They all used different electricians to set their systems up.

Moral of the story is I have no idea what is the "Right" way. We all use portables and some use grounding rods and some don't. The only thing I know is nobody had to change any internal bonding on their gen. We all use them regularly during outages and thankfully nobody has had an issue.

 

[pattenp]

Using or not using a grounding rod at the generator has nothing to do with unbonding the equipment ground and neutral in the generator when the generator is connected to the house power system. Apples and oranges.

I am not an expert by any means. My gen has a seperate grounding lug for when I connect to the house. I run a cable from the lug to my grounding rod. Just about everyone on my street has a portable gen that they connect to their house like I do. We all use the interlock kit vs a transfer switch. None of my neighbors had to change the bonding on their gen. Only 2 others use a rod like I do. The rest just plug it in and run it. They all used different electricians to set their systems up.

Moral of the story is I have no idea what is the "Right" way. We all use portables and some use grounding rods and some don't. The only thing I know is nobody had to change any internal bonding on their gen. We all use them regularly during outages and thankfully nobody has had an issue.

 

[Alchymist]

What you and your neighbors do or not do has no bearing on what's correct or not. It is either done right or it is done wrong. See link in post #15.

 

[pcpro15]

I have decided to put this on hold for now. But I have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you all for your input. I wish I would have known about the neutral bond issue before I bought the generator. It really pisses me off that such a minor detail has me hung up from doing a code correct installation no matter the method of installation. It pains me to have to modify a brand new generator that is under warranty to unbond the neutral. It also worries me to do the plug method (but very creative) when I may or may not always be around to make sure someone has the plug in if they use it not connected to the house.

By the way the generator is a 6.5kw generac. As I was browsing their site, I ran across this.
http://www.generac.com/all-products/transfer-switches/portable

Now how is that portable generator able to connect to the house??? It is also has bonded neutral under specs.

In the big scheme of things... I think we will most likely sell this perfectly working generator in favor of the correct one. It would be nice to find a generator that has a built in switch to swap between bonded neutral and floating neutral. Haven't found one yet. I would rather have gasoline for portable.... but in the future will most likely look into a home LP generator from generac which will make the install correct at 10x the price all said and done (rough guess).

 

[Mustang51js]

There's nothing wrong with your generator and it will work fine as is to power your house. The pic of the generator you linked to is plugged in the same way you would do yours, say if you had a 30 amp twist lock on your generator, you would have a 30 amp male plug on the outside with a 10/3 going to your panel. With the interlock kit you would turn the main off and turn the 30 amp two pole breaker that controls the plug outside. The interlock kit just keeps you from having that breaker and the main on at the same time. If you wanted to use the transfer switch in that link then you have two options,get a service rated one and rewrite your panel as a sub panel because the transfer switch would be your main, or put that in and then install a sub panel after it which the transfer switch controls,then you need to move the breakers you want on that sub panel to be powered by gen. Just noticed that transfer switch has some open spots so you could put a couple circuits on that also.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Immaterial to what he's doing.

Already stated how it's installed. (See OP).

See post #2]. No change for what he said he was doing.

Long way from what OP is doing.

Either I'm half blind and have AGAIN missed several pertinent detailsin those early posts, even after re-reading them yet again, or you're reading things into them that just aren't there. But given that the OP now says he's giving up on this idea, it's a moot point.

I have decided to put this on hold for now.

In the big scheme of things... I think we will most likely sell this perfectly working generator in favor of the correct one.

If your primary purpose in buying the generator was to have it available for emergency backup at your home, then that is a VERY wise decision.

It would be nice to find a generator that has a built in switch to swap between bonded neutral and floating neutral. Haven't found one yet. I would rather have gasoline for portable....

While I have not looked into this in any detail, I cannot imagine that it is all that difficult to change the bonding status on any intelligently designed generator. After all, it's just one bus/wire connection, make or break. At worst, you'd need to spend five or ten minutes with some wrenches.

but in the future will most likely look into a home LP generator from generac which will make the install correct at 10x the price all said and done (rough guess).

That "rough guess" is pretty far off. Consider:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Generac-...or-with-50-Amp-Transfer-Switch-5837/202214401

Well under $2,000, even including a very nice little AUTOMATIC transfer switch and subpanel. While perhaps not the ideal system for any given specific application, the point remains that, at that price, it boots using at least most jury-rigged portable gensets right out of the game.

There's nothing wrong with your generator and it will work fine as is to power your house.

Yes, there is; and no, it won't. Further, you have by now had several folks who really DO know what they're talking about correct you on this point, AND explain exactly why you were wrong. So by continuing to post this nonsense, you are apparently DELIBERATELY attempting to mislead people.

Why?

 

[Alchymist]

Either I'm half blind and have AGAIN missed several pertinent detailsin those early posts, even after re-reading them yet again, or you're reading things into them that just aren't there. But given that the OP now says he's giving up on this idea, it's a moot point.

Well, that was kind of confusing, but I'll only comment on one point:

When looking at my panel I have a single pole GFI in both top spots (left and right). Underneath the GFI on the right, I have a double pole 20A for the well.

I am confident in moving the wires and breakers to free those spots, but also want to make sure I am not missing a "rule of thumb" or anything. Should I keep the well breaker near the top of the panel if possible, or does breaker position really not matter.

Just want to make sure it ok to pull the well breaker out, and move the gfi down two slots? Then move the well breaker towards the bottom of the panel.

If he pulls well breaker and moves it anywhere in the panel, no load change, it's 240 V. If he moves the GFI down two slots, again no load change. That was all I was saying.

Overall, people make these things way harder than it really is, especially posting wrong info.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In the big scheme of things... I think we will most likely sell this perfectly working generator in favor of the correct one. It would be nice to find a generator that has a built in switch to swap between bonded neutral and floating neutral. Haven't found one yet. I would rather have gasoline for portable.... but in the future will most likely look into a home LP generator from generac which will make the install correct at 10x the price all said and done (rough guess).

Make lemonade out of your lemons !

First, you are not likely to ever find a portable generator that will "automatically" swap from bonded to unbonded. Companies just don't want to spend the money. When running as a true portable generator (and ground and neutral are bonded) how many people actually install a ground rod like recommend it the owners manual ? (Almost nobody !)

As others have said, the owner's manual will tell you how to un-bond your unit (usually just lifting one wire). The solution is simple. Install a switch (HD togle or even a regular light switch in a mounting box) in a convenient place that opens that connections. Make sure it is labeled in "layman's terminology" (something like "portable" vs "hooked to house").

Problem solve. The best of both worlds without spending additional money.




VENTING : I have an issue with NEC when they decide to change "standard practice". For many, MANY years, portable generators were bonded and still hooked up to home load centers that were also bonded. I doubt that there many (any?) personal injuries resulting from this practice. Most people continue to do bonding on portable generators "wrong" even today, despite all sorts of warnings. Yes, "best practice" is one bond, but I don't think any manufactures will be changing their designs to do this "automatically".

 

[theoldwizard1]

If he pulls the well breaker and moves it anywhere in the panel, no load change, it's 240 V. If he moves the GFI down two slots, again no load change. That was all I was saying.

Overall, people make these things way harder than it really is.

+1 !

 

[Mustang51js]

Yes, there is; and no, it won't. Further, you have by now had several folks who really DO know what they're talking about correct you on this point, AND explain exactly why you were wrong. So by continuing to post this nonsense, you are apparently DELIBERATELY attempting to mislead people.

Why?

[/QUOTE]

Can you explain to me what will happen if you you keep the neutral bonded to the generator,considering there is no ground on a portable generator unless you add it yourself. I didn't read the link posted in the beginning so don't know if that's what your going by. If you just plug it in and don't run a ground rod to the casing of the generator which barely anyone does,all you have is two hots and two neutrals going to the same place in the panel.

 

[sands35]

My understanding (with a genny with bonded neutral and ground - wired into a 2P switch) is that if you have a break in the ground wire, you will end up using the neutral wire as a ground - which is bad. Ground loops and unexpected current flow.

If you want to use a genny with a bonded neutral/ground, you can use a 3P double-throw switch and switch the ground as well as the neutral. (But why bother when unbonding the genny and using a "bonding plug" is simple enough).

NEC requires that the Neutral and the Ground be bonded at one and only one location. This is for consistency and to ensure that the Neutral does what a Neutral is for and a ground does what a ground is for.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you want to use a genny with a bonded neutral/ground, you can use a 3P double-throw switch and switch the ground as well as the neutral.

Unless I am missing something wouldn't that require 4P ?

The original post started because the OP wanted to use an NEC approved interlock.

(But why bother when unbonding the genny and using a "bonding plug" is simple enough).

So why don't generator manufacturers un-bond the single point and then bond only the convenience outlets (a "bonding plug" on the back side of the outlet; requires an isolated ground receptacle)

 

[Mustang51js]

From what I can find it seems the only thing it does when bonded is it may make the gfci trip on the gen if it has one. If you want to be up to the 2014 code now you also need a double pole gfci breaker in your panel if there isn't one on the generator.

 

[pattenp]

I have to call myself out for not knowing what I'm talking about. I dug out my Generac manual and there is no mention about floating the neutral. But I swear I read it somewhere. I did find reference to bonding of the neutral as related to the use of automatic transfer switches on the Generac site. http://www.generac.com/resources-an...stry-news/generator-sizing-avoid-the-pitfalls It indicates if the neutral is unswitched then it should be only bonded at the main service.

When using a portable gen there is an equipment ground that runs to the house along with a neutral. When used for providing power to a house the ground and neutral should be unbonded at the gen. Usually the instructions provided with the gen will make reference to this. My gen instructions don't give directions on how to unbond the ground and neutral. The instructions say to call technical assistance or take the gen an authorized service/dealer to have the bonding removed. To repeat.. the neutral and ground should only be bonded at one spot, at the main service panel/main disconnect.

 

[Mustang51js]

The worst part is if you look it up online it's all conflicting, some say to do it and others say to leave it. The gfci thing is only thing I could really find. I do know that inspectors here are very picky with things since the economy slowed down, and none of them ever mentioned anything about it. I know I'm not up on all the codes but when I do a job I make sure I read up on that particular job just because they are so picky. They are so bad they fail you for one thing and when they come back fail you for another that they could've told you about the first time just so they can have work for another day.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Well, that was kind of confusing, but I'll only comment on one point:

If he pulls well breaker and moves it anywhere in the panel, no load change, it's 240 V. If he moves the GFI down two slots, again no load change. That was all I was saying.

That is all true, as far as it goes; but it doesn't really address the points I was trying to make. Depending on what he finds when he pulls the panel cover, he MAY have to move some other stuff around in order to:

A. - Make room for that new 30A breaker (or, if you prefer to think of it this way, for the old 30A pump breaker in a new location).

B. - Accommodate existing leads into the various breaker locations which are too short to permit at least some of the breakers to be moved where he REALLY wants to put them.

One thing leads to another, and all that.

Can you explain to me what will happen if you you keep the neutral bonded to the generator,considering there is no ground on a portable generator unless you add it yourself.

In addition to the scenario that "sands35" describes, there is another issue:

Given that it is a practical impossibility for the loads on both sides of the split-phase 120V/240V circuit to be EXACTLY balanced at all times, the Neutral WILL be carrying current any time the generator is in operation; very possibly a significant current. When the generator is being used in a truly "portable" fashion, with no connection to the house (and thus back to a "real" ground via the house's service panel), this is not a problem, because the neutral NEVER connects back to ground anywhere else except at that one bonding point inside the genset.

But with the Neutral and Ground bonded at BOTH the generator and the service panel, there is effectively no difference between these two conductors. And so, current will not only be flowing on the Neutral, but ALSO on the EGC ("Ground"). And that is never OK.

One other thing (which is possibly a slight stretch, but still...): Since the generator's frame is part of that "Ground" circuit, this means that Neutral current will ALSO be flowing on/through that frame, which in turn will put a voltage on it (relative to "true" ground). You touch the frame while standing in a puddle, and... Ooops!

I didn't read the link posted in the beginning so don't know ...

Why does this not surprise me?

If you just plug it in and don't run a ground rod to the casing of the generator which barely anyone does,all you have is two hots and two neutrals going to the same place in the panel.

And that is precisely the problem.