dink
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Can someone explain British Standard for me in terms of wrenches
British Standard
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kartracer55
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you mean whitworth?
kartracer55 said:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=all&Group_ID=567&store=snapon-store
Explain British standard
kartracer55
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in the US and the rest of the normal world, the wrench size is the measurement across the flats. Whitworth bolts are (of course) oddballs, and the head sizes arnt really standardized, instead a 7/16 whitworth wrench is used for a 7/16 whitworth threaded bolt, it doesnt have anything to do with the actual size of the head. "british standard" not only has unique head sizing, but the thread pitch is also different too, so youd need a whitworth taps.
Dont ask my why, its bizare, and they arnt used today, at least that I know of. Dont even waste your money on these, I doubt youll find more than one or two members on here who have ever encountered them. I know some old british motorcylces use them, some really old british cars, but other then that, you wont see them.... ever
Jim
Dont ask my why, its bizare, and they arnt used today, at least that I know of. Dont even waste your money on these, I doubt youll find more than one or two members on here who have ever encountered them. I know some old british motorcylces use them, some really old british cars, but other then that, you wont see them.... ever
Jim
kartracer55
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Sw... good page.
Dink, if you scrolldown, it shows whitworth as having 55* thread angle... Normal threads (both standard and metric) have 60*
Dink, if you scrolldown, it shows whitworth as having 55* thread angle... Normal threads (both standard and metric) have 60*
eschoendorff
Well-known member
dink said:
Restoring an old E-type.... ugh...
Finding a thoroughly restored and modern electronic-retrofitted E-type...
kartracer55
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Now Ed, you complain about the Corvette tax? HAH!
eschoendorff
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kartracer55 said:
Yes, yes I do. But then I don't ride around with a bonnet full of spare parts, either.
I've watched my FIL fight with more than enough old British cars. No thanks. Now, find one with modern electronics and fully restored, then you've got something.
mikeyr
Well-known member
every serious tool man needs a set of those Dink ! you never know when you might need to work on a e-type. I have several full sets of BSF and Witworth tools and taps-dies but then again, I own 3 British cars, 2 of them pre-war cars. And by the way, you should have have BSP and BSC taps-dies as well as most pre-war Brit cars will have those also.
And eschoendorff, NEVER NEVER ever destroy a car by putting in modern bolts, they were built with BSF, you restore them with BSF, anything else is destroying the car. The only change that I would approve of (mainly because I do it), is replace chassis bolts, etc. with Stainless Steel BSF, everything else gets replated and put back in.
As others have already answered, the wrenches are different size, somewhere between Metric and SAE and the threads are very different.
And eschoendorff, NEVER NEVER ever destroy a car by putting in modern bolts, they were built with BSF, you restore them with BSF, anything else is destroying the car. The only change that I would approve of (mainly because I do it), is replace chassis bolts, etc. with Stainless Steel BSF, everything else gets replated and put back in.
As others have already answered, the wrenches are different size, somewhere between Metric and SAE and the threads are very different.
I wouldn't buy an E-Type that leaked oil. They have seals and those seals should hold the oil in. If they don't, it wasn't rebuilt properly. My daily driver is a '67 MGB GT. Doesn't leak a dorp of oil and believe it or not, the oil pan is not empty! 
Now the '49 leaks a good bit, but there is no oil seal on the crankshaft so it has a good excuse!
To stay on topic a tiny bit, I do have some Whitworth tools but even on my old (probably not as old as mikeyr's) brit cars I rarely encounter them.
Now the '49 leaks a good bit, but there is no oil seal on the crankshaft so it has a good excuse! To stay on topic a tiny bit, I do have some Whitworth tools but even on my old (probably not as old as mikeyr's) brit cars I rarely encounter them.
Craig Balzer
Well-known member
Before we all get too far down the let’s-bash-Jaguars lane, let's clear up a few points:
//Rant ON//
1. In the entire structure of an XK-E there are perhaps 4 or maybe 6 Whitworth fasteners. There's 1 or 2 in the manual gear box, another that deals with the oil delivery system and a small handful of others scattered throughout the car. And these are on the 1961 to 1970 models; the V12's (1971-75) have no Whitworth. Other than that, the entire car is constructed with SAE fasteners. I have rebuilt 2 Jaguar XK-Es from the firewall forward and know this as a fact.
2. A properly built or re-built engine -- regardless of the make or model -- will hold the oil. I had my second V12 rebuilt by a very qualified mechanist (over 500 engines rebuilt). That’s the good news. The bad news is mine was only the third Jag he had done. So -- he trimmed the rear main oil seal that came from the part's supplier pre-trimmed. Result -- immediate oil leak. He didn’t properly seat the seal. It doesn’t matter if this had been on a Jaguar V12 or a Chevy 350; that failure will result in a leak. If he had known the job better he wouldn’t have make the mistake.
3. The XK-E -- I think we can all agree -- is one of (if not THE) sexiest car ever made. More significnatly, it was priced 1/2 or 2/3 cheaper tahn its competitors: Porsche, Ferrari for two. Many people wanted (lusted after) them when they first saw one. Some of those people (perhaps too many) extended their budget to buy one and were left too short when a repair came due. So, the car sat. Sometimes until the money was set aside - - sometimes for months/years. Take any 60's or 70's era car and let it sit that long and seals are gonna dry up or fail.
4. Being that only 75,000 XK-Es were made in 14 years, too many of these cars become mantle/shown pieces. Shown and not driven. Or, not driven enough. Result is the same as the guy trying to save for the (major or minor) repair – underused and seals (Chevy or Jag or MBenz) dry and die.
Small bit of trivia: the in-line 6 cylinder engione was designed in 1944 to 47. It is a dual over-head cammed, hemi-headed, cross-flow engine design. All gearheads know The Hemi -- very few know the Jaguar pre-dated it by a few years.
OK -- if youread this few: Thanx for reading.
//Rant OFF//
Soap box stored (until the next time)
Craig
'71 XK-E V12 2+2 (photos attached)
'72 Xk-E V12 Roadster
//Rant ON//
1. In the entire structure of an XK-E there are perhaps 4 or maybe 6 Whitworth fasteners. There's 1 or 2 in the manual gear box, another that deals with the oil delivery system and a small handful of others scattered throughout the car. And these are on the 1961 to 1970 models; the V12's (1971-75) have no Whitworth. Other than that, the entire car is constructed with SAE fasteners. I have rebuilt 2 Jaguar XK-Es from the firewall forward and know this as a fact.
2. A properly built or re-built engine -- regardless of the make or model -- will hold the oil. I had my second V12 rebuilt by a very qualified mechanist (over 500 engines rebuilt). That’s the good news. The bad news is mine was only the third Jag he had done. So -- he trimmed the rear main oil seal that came from the part's supplier pre-trimmed. Result -- immediate oil leak. He didn’t properly seat the seal. It doesn’t matter if this had been on a Jaguar V12 or a Chevy 350; that failure will result in a leak. If he had known the job better he wouldn’t have make the mistake.
3. The XK-E -- I think we can all agree -- is one of (if not THE) sexiest car ever made. More significnatly, it was priced 1/2 or 2/3 cheaper tahn its competitors: Porsche, Ferrari for two. Many people wanted (lusted after) them when they first saw one. Some of those people (perhaps too many) extended their budget to buy one and were left too short when a repair came due. So, the car sat. Sometimes until the money was set aside - - sometimes for months/years. Take any 60's or 70's era car and let it sit that long and seals are gonna dry up or fail.
4. Being that only 75,000 XK-Es were made in 14 years, too many of these cars become mantle/shown pieces. Shown and not driven. Or, not driven enough. Result is the same as the guy trying to save for the (major or minor) repair – underused and seals (Chevy or Jag or MBenz) dry and die.
Small bit of trivia: the in-line 6 cylinder engione was designed in 1944 to 47. It is a dual over-head cammed, hemi-headed, cross-flow engine design. All gearheads know The Hemi -- very few know the Jaguar pre-dated it by a few years.
OK -- if youread this few: Thanx for reading.
//Rant OFF//
Soap box stored (until the next time)
Craig
'71 XK-E V12 2+2 (photos attached)
'72 Xk-E V12 Roadster
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Craig Balzer
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eschoendorff
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Craig...
That V12 is gorgeous!!!!!
That V12 is gorgeous!!!!!
trovato
Well-known member
eschoendorff said:
I don't ride around with a bonnet full of spare parts. I ride around with a boot full of spare parts. And I only put the hood up when it's raining.
bonnet = hood
hood = convertible top
boot = trunk
mikeyr
Well-known member
both my pre-war Brit cars are 1934's and 100% Whitworth, if it was not for my new cars 1953 and 1967, I would not even need metric or SAE stuffSteve_S said:
Runner94
Well-known member
I had a friend that had a couple of early Rolls and a 60's era Bentley. One of the Rolls' was a (I think) '36 Roadster. That had Whitworth nuts and bolts. He had a chassis bolt that held the radiator housing to the chassis and didn't have a wrench for it. I used one of the Sears adjustable closed end wrenches. It worked fine. With total respect for anyone who owns any type of older European car, ie: Rolls, Bentley, Jag, MG or whatever, I envy you. My friend would not use any parts that were not made in England. One wheel brake replacement would cost him over $600 depending on what car he was working on. He was fussy about the parts but not the tools. His cars were nice but not any where near show cars. I had a great time working on them with him.
mikeyr
Well-known member
OFF-Topic and kind of ON-Topic
A tid-bit of history, England before the war (WWII) was almost exclusivley BSF/Whitworth and Germany wanted to conquer England. Hitler knew that most of the machinery that he would acquire would be damaged by the Brits and he would need to repair that machinery in order to use the factories to feed his war machine. He had sets of tools made up in BSF/Whitworth so that when the invasion of Great Britain finally came, his German soldiers would have all the tools they needed to rebuild/repair the machinery and get the factories running before the U.S./Allies mounted a attack.
How do I know this ? NO and I take great care to repeat this, NO I am NOT a NAZI sympathizer but I have a full set of open-end and closed-end BSF wrenches with the NAZI ******** cast into the handles and those tools are some of the best made tools I have even owned, 60 years old and 60 years of trashing around tool boxes and they still look good, hammer on them (I have) and they take a beating without breaking. I originally got them at a car show in Europe just because they were so cheap I figured I could throw them in the car as emergency tools, they have now made it to my workbench tool drawers. The vendor at the show had hundreds of these sets that he could not give away because no one wanted that swaztika on their tools
Ok, back to the topic...
I have a 12-piece King ****
A tid-bit of history, England before the war (WWII) was almost exclusivley BSF/Whitworth and Germany wanted to conquer England. Hitler knew that most of the machinery that he would acquire would be damaged by the Brits and he would need to repair that machinery in order to use the factories to feed his war machine. He had sets of tools made up in BSF/Whitworth so that when the invasion of Great Britain finally came, his German soldiers would have all the tools they needed to rebuild/repair the machinery and get the factories running before the U.S./Allies mounted a attack.
How do I know this ? NO and I take great care to repeat this, NO I am NOT a NAZI sympathizer but I have a full set of open-end and closed-end BSF wrenches with the NAZI ******** cast into the handles and those tools are some of the best made tools I have even owned, 60 years old and 60 years of trashing around tool boxes and they still look good, hammer on them (I have) and they take a beating without breaking. I originally got them at a car show in Europe just because they were so cheap I figured I could throw them in the car as emergency tools, they have now made it to my workbench tool drawers. The vendor at the show had hundreds of these sets that he could not give away because no one wanted that swaztika on their tools
Ok, back to the topic...
I have a 12-piece King ****
Uncle Buck
Banned
Steve S What brand of sockets are those in your picture? They look to be quality tools?
kartracer55
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Mikey, just for Ha-Ha's... can we see them?
eschoendorff
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mikeyr said:OFF-Topic and kind of ON-Topic
A tid-bit of history, England before the war (WWII) was almost exclusivley BSF/Whitworth and Germany wanted to conquer England. Hitler knew that most of the machinery that he would acquire would be damaged by the Brits and he would need to repair that machinery in order to use the factories to feed his war machine. He had sets of tools made up in BSF/Whitworth so that when the invasion of Great Britain finally came, his German soldiers would have all the tools they needed to rebuild/repair the machinery and get the factories running before the U.S./Allies mounted a attack.
How do I know this ? NO and I take great care to repeat this, NO I am NOT a NAZI sympathizer but I have a full set of open-end and closed-end BSF wrenches with the NAZI ******** cast into the handles and those tools are some of the best made tools I have even owned, 60 years old and 60 years of trashing around tool boxes and they still look good, hammer on them (I have) and they take a beating without breaking. I originally got them at a car show in Europe just because they were so cheap I figured I could throw them in the car as emergency tools, they have now made it to my workbench tool drawers. The vendor at the show had hundreds of these sets that he could not give away because no one wanted that swaztika on their tools
Ok, back to the topic...
I have a 12-piece King ****
I cannot imagine anyone actually entertaining the idea that you are a Nazi sympathizer just because you have some tools with swaztikas on them. They are a piece of history. I would hope that as adults we would be able to understand that. That being said, I would love to see what they look like, just out of curiuosity...
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
Since we are all bragging about strange and unusual tools (aka English stuff) here is my collection of Whitworth wrenches and sockets.
The combination wrenches are Dowidat made in Germany and the remainder are Craftsman, except for one Emglish made Shelly wrench. The combination wrenches are mostly twos and threes of the same sizes. One of my co-workers said his father had used them to work on English Norton motorcycles and he had inherited them. He didn't want them and so I bought them from him. Some of what you see is rust on the tools, some of the gold look is caused by the flash. Got to get busy and clean and oil them.
I doubt I'll have to work on anything automotive that has Whitworth sizing, but I'm an aircraft mechanic and have in the past had the opprotunity to work on a P-51D Mustang, whose Packard engine is a licensed copy of the Rolls Royce Merlin, which is entirely Whitworth hardward standard.
Charles
The combination wrenches are Dowidat made in Germany and the remainder are Craftsman, except for one Emglish made Shelly wrench. The combination wrenches are mostly twos and threes of the same sizes. One of my co-workers said his father had used them to work on English Norton motorcycles and he had inherited them. He didn't want them and so I bought them from him. Some of what you see is rust on the tools, some of the gold look is caused by the flash. Got to get busy and clean and oil them.
I doubt I'll have to work on anything automotive that has Whitworth sizing, but I'm an aircraft mechanic and have in the past had the opprotunity to work on a P-51D Mustang, whose Packard engine is a licensed copy of the Rolls Royce Merlin, which is entirely Whitworth hardward standard.
Charles
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eschoendorff
Well-known member
Charles (in GA) said:
Wow!
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
hholmberg said:
As he noted, KING ****
I know you may not know it, but that is a fairly common tool brand name in Europe, it is, of course, a Play on King Richard.
The Made in West Germany kinda dates the sockets.
Charles
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
eschoendorff said:Wow!
WOW... The tools or the P-51?
The P-51 is not really fun to work on. Everything is tight and packed in a too small of a space. The engine is terrible, its an all day job to set the timing on the two magnetos, and that has to be done every 25 hours of operation, as it drifts with point wear.
Charles
eschoendorff
Well-known member
The tools, actually. I gotta admit that I haven't seen that many BSF tools in one place. I'm sure my FIL has them, I just haven't seen them in one place.Charles (in GA) said:
