British tools
- Thread starter PavelK313
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Also two notes on Whitworth -
It uses a 55 degree thread form with some radius on the form. Some of the Whitworth threads have the same diameter and pitch (such as 1/4”, 20 threads per inch) as SAE. So careful not to mix bolts that seem to fit, but might not be right. And of course watch for previous owners rounding threads with the wrong wrench.
It is measured by the thread diameter, rather than the size of the hex. So for a 1/4” ANSI bolt size, you use a wrench labelled 7/16”. For Whitworth the wrench is labelled 1/4”.
It uses a 55 degree thread form with some radius on the form. Some of the Whitworth threads have the same diameter and pitch (such as 1/4”, 20 threads per inch) as SAE. So careful not to mix bolts that seem to fit, but might not be right. And of course watch for previous owners rounding threads with the wrong wrench.
It is measured by the thread diameter, rather than the size of the hex. So for a 1/4” ANSI bolt size, you use a wrench labelled 7/16”. For Whitworth the wrench is labelled 1/4”.
kyrbz
Well-known member
Everything you'll need in the way of Whitworth tools and fasteners in the US
But I usually get my fasteners from Nooky's Nuts in England
King **** wrenches and Koken sockets I bought from British Tools and Fasteners many years ago
But I usually get my fasteners from Nooky's Nuts in England
Nooky's Nuts - Classic Motorcycle Nuts and Bolts
Nooky's Nuts are suppliers of high quality fasteners, nuts, bolts and washers. Cycle thread, BSF and UNF fasteners for classic motorcycles
www.nookysnuts.com
King **** wrenches and Koken sockets I bought from British Tools and Fasteners many years ago
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Dave455
Well-known member
For sockets I recommend KoKen or Elora or King ****, although there are plenty of others (Gedore are common). Can’t give you advice on where to get them, but a search for “KoKen” should find them.
KoKen offer shallow, deep and even universal sockets in Whitworth sizes. If you get “BA” sizes in 1/4” drive and Whitworth sizes in 3/8” drive, that will be perfect.
For wrenches, King **** or Elora are again favoured. Snap On offer them, and they are nice, but they are money!
What vehicle have you got, and what year?
KoKen offer shallow, deep and even universal sockets in Whitworth sizes. If you get “BA” sizes in 1/4” drive and Whitworth sizes in 3/8” drive, that will be perfect.
For wrenches, King **** or Elora are again favoured. Snap On offer them, and they are nice, but they are money!
What vehicle have you got, and what year?
milkovich
Well-known member
+1 on Koken Sockets and King **** wrenches. When I had british motorcycles, that was my combo. Both very high quality. Sadly, I included them with the sale of my last motorcycle so that I wouldn't be tempted to bring anymore English machines home.
straightcut
Well-known member
Along with the others, I concur that Koken sockets are excellent! They recently came out with a 1/2" drive set, that I bought instantly upon learning of their existence - they're that good! I have 6pt and 12pt, eight piece 3/8" drive sets - all purchased from vendors on eBay.
Unless you know you really need long, deep offset box wrenches, I'd skip those and go straight for combination wrenches. I've bought used sets off of eBay and sometimes eBay UK. Britool and Gedore (German made) are very good!
Before I purchased my Whitworth tools, everyone said to just find the closest fitting tool between metric and SAE. After trying 6 and 12 point of metric and SAE, then finding none fit that well...and not wanting to mess up 60 year old fasteners, I purchased a few sets - One of the better decisions I've made (after buying British vehicles, LOL!).
Unless you know you really need long, deep offset box wrenches, I'd skip those and go straight for combination wrenches. I've bought used sets off of eBay and sometimes eBay UK. Britool and Gedore (German made) are very good!
Before I purchased my Whitworth tools, everyone said to just find the closest fitting tool between metric and SAE. After trying 6 and 12 point of metric and SAE, then finding none fit that well...and not wanting to mess up 60 year old fasteners, I purchased a few sets - One of the better decisions I've made (after buying British vehicles, LOL!).
RTM
Well-known member
Having worked on a British made machine back in the mid 80s, with Whitworth or BA fasteners everywhere. Nothing metric or SAE was even close to working. Pre ious mechanic had hidden all the tools when his firing wa imminent.
I’ve got a couple of Craftsman and Snap-on socket pieces hiding around here somewhere, and an old vintage hex drive set boxed up and promised to someone.
I’ve got a couple of Craftsman and Snap-on socket pieces hiding around here somewhere, and an old vintage hex drive set boxed up and promised to someone.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Going to have to get that pinky stiff while drinking tea!
AF = across flats = SAE
I have been keeping them separate for years. I have a big plastic tub on them…
Thank you.
54 Bentley R-Type
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Be prepared to take a hammer to your piggy-bank. The bottomless pit is now open.
Thank you for everyone’s input! Will be placing order for Koken 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 short and 3/8 deep set. Looked on snap on website and their wrench selection is rather small for whiteorth. King duck was out of stock on British tool site. So will be looking for a good quality wrench set.
Any other white or th specific tools I should look into?
Car in question is 1954 Bentley R-Type, that I am planning on completely servicing and repairing myself.
Any other white or th specific tools I should look into?
Car in question is 1954 Bentley R-Type, that I am planning on completely servicing and repairing myself.
It’s in really good condition and was 100% restored back in 2006. HOWEVER, I took it out once and water pump started leaking out of weep hole, and while doing fluids I realized that pinion seal (if one can call felt a seal) is leaking. I did get new white wall tires for it, water pump and fluids so far. I do plan on performing service and repairs on it myself though.
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kyrbz
Well-known member
In addition to sockets and wrenches, I've found a Whitworth thread gauge handy and a small selection of taps and dies mostly to clean up threads
I just ordered sockets an hour ago and already received wrenches from Amazon.
Ordered tools and thread gauge. I am good at eye balling metric thread but sae and Whitworth is unknown territory for me.
Dave455
Well-known member
Very nice indeed!
Just for your info - most of the bolt threads you find will be BSF - British Standard Fine. Think of this as the British equivalent of ANF.
You may find a few BSW - British Standard Whitworth. These are coarser threads, the British equivalent of ANC, and you will typically find them in cast iron, e.g. engine blocks.
You will also find BA - British Association threads. These are the equivalent of the U.S. “numbered” series (e.g. No. 8 ANF) but the numbering works the other way (No. 0 is the biggest)
You will commonly find 2,4 & 6 BA, but RR’s and Bentley’s did sometimes use the odd sizes.
I note what you have ordered already, and that seems sensible. With regard to wrenches, bear in mind thst one of the nice things about BS bolts is that you need a much smaller selection of sizes. Wheras you might need 10 wrenches to cover the metric sizes found on a vehicle, you probably only need 7 or 8 SAE, and probably only 5 BS, so I’m prepared to bet that the limited selection available from Snap On would be just about adequate.
If you are having problems obtaining King **** wrenches, I’d opt for Elora. These are German made and very nice. They would be my first choice should you want BA wrenches, as I think they are about the best modern ones.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Let me share with you a quote from Brock Yates - a very famous writer from Car and Driver Magazine. He was also the founder of the Cannonball Run.
"When invited to the White House I accepted that invitation faster than Lucas wipers would quit in a rainstorm." This statement causes Lucas to send him a protesting letter letting him know that they made all of the ignition systems for Rolls-Royce jet engines. Brock's reply: "I've instructed my secretary to never book me on a jet that uses Rolls-Royce engines."
kyrbz
Well-known member
I thought British gentleman's cars came with all the tools you need in a custom fitted case?
It took about two weeks but I finally revived my order of Koken sockets. If anyone else is looking for Whitworth tools, Palmac.net had everything in stock and had by far the best prices. Still waiting to receive thread checking took and wrenches, I believe it should be couple more weeks for both of those.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
Does anyone know if Abington King **** ring spanners and DOE spanners are still made in the UK? I’ve been eying a metric set and a Whitworth set but I don’t want to pull the trigger unless it’s MiUK.
ZRX61
Well-known member
Lucas actually invented the ignitors used on ALL jet engines. Not sure if they still hold the patent, but I know they still make them
Garcky
Well-known member
You should have contacted me about 15 years ago. I gave all of my Whitworth and BSF tools to some guy with a pre-war Austin.
The Wrenches say they are still made in England. I've still got my Whitworth/BSF just in case.
I'm what you would call a post war Austin.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
I saw that and was a bit discouraged. Maybe it was a bad batch? And thank you for the heads up with being made in the UK. I think I'll try and grab a set. Feels kinda weird to not have an English spanner for Whitworth stuff.
I’ll not be opting out of my Stahlwille tool sets as a result of this “test”.
The presenter cannot even spell the name right.
Most of my stuff is Britool back when they were still made in the UK. The only King **** tools I have are a set of BA ignition wrenches. I've been thinking of getting a few KD metric wrenches just for old time's sake. Have you seen this place?
https://britishfasteners.com/tools/abingdon-king-****-tools.html
I've got Hazet, Stahlwille, Gedore, and a couple of Hayco. I've never had any trouble with any of them. I think the Gedore feel a little too slender in my hands, but I've never been too hard on them. I've always been a fan of the Hazet 603, Stahlwille 14, Gedore 1b, and Heyco Maxline style wrenches.
I think it's sad that Britool (made in the UK) are gone. I've got some of their SAE and Metric wrenches and they were well made.
I think they are forged in China and finished in England? Don´t quote me on it, I recall reading it somewhere on the internet where someone emailed the owner.
Dave455
Well-known member
It depends on your definition of made in the U.K.
I believe that currently, King **** buy in the forgings, then machine, broach, heat treat and finish in house. If that meets your definition of “Made in the U.K.” then yes.
As far as I am concerned, “Made in England” (let’s be specific) means forged in England, and from British steel, so importing forgings doesn’t make the grade.
Legally, I’m not sure where that leaves them. Country of origin laws are quite strict here. and some years ago they dropped the “Made in England” from the packing, so perhaps they suspect they’re on dodgy ground.
They still put “England” on the tools (omitting the “Made in“) but under British law, even this would be dodgy if the tools were not made here.
I have older King **** wrenches and they are fine (in fact excellent) strength wise. Some lack a little on the finishing, but I have open end wrenches from the 1980’s that are really very decent in all respects. King **** were always “mid range” (bordering on Industrial) tools, but they did those very well.
Of the later tools, I believe that forgings were bought in from Germany. I have some of the later wrenches but despite the probable mixed origins I have no complaints. Very decent tools. I think these are the same tools shown by kyrbz above,
With regard to the test in the video, I’m never sure why these testers always focus on the open end. I seldom use an open end wrench apart from changing discs on my angle grinder or working on plumbing fittings!
Nevertheless, the failure of the wrench shown is totally unacceptable. The argument “it could have been a bad batch” doesn’t really apply either - that’s what quality control is for!
I have been told that King **** have switched to Chinese forgings. Personally, I think that’s a stupid decision. Although some Chinese products have improved hugely, you would need to both supply the material, and QC the product yourself, to see any improvement on the usual dross.
The sad thing is, you can obtain pretty much any tool steel incredibly easily in the U.K. (I’ve done it) and getting forgings knocked out is easy too. The only reasons for not doing so are cost, and a lack of understanding of your products / customers!
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Oregon rock crusher
Well-known member
I picked up this British tool board a while back. Though Sterling was not one of the great British Marques the board is kind of neat. The service tools are nearly all marked V. L. Chruchill and probably will be useful on other cars. With a 58' MGA coupe, a 67' MGB roadster, and my sons 70' XKE roadster in the herd I decided to ****** it up as wall art if nothing else. Ed.
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That's sad, I would have hoped that they were still English made like my old Britool stuff. I ordered some Britool Metric wrenches not too long ago and got Britool Expert made in Taiwan. They don't even say Britool on them anymore, they work fine but I can buy Taiwan made tool anywhere. Looks like if I want UK made wrenches, I'll have to buy used.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
That *****. I was really hoping to get some true made in England/UK wrenches. My buddy has some really old sets and he uses them all the time for his MG. I would do the King **** but if they’re using Chinese sourced blanks I will pass for now. Maybe I’ll find some decent used stuff on Marketplace.
The whole idea came about because one of the other machinists at work is taking an extended vacation to the UK and he wanted to know if he could bring me back any true British tools. He knows I enjoy working on older British autos and bikes and I’m a bit of an American Anglophile.
