Britool (Made in England) thread

[Dave455]

I have really enjoyed reading all the preceding pages of this topic and as a newbie to this forum so I hope it is OK if I chip in.
I have a Britool AVT280 / R tension wrench that is stamped "Made In England" and I would like to know the age of his tool.
An advertisement for Britool adjustable tension wrenches appeared in the Motor Industry magazine for December 1956 and the tool is stamped as "British Made".
If anyone could tell me the approximate age of this tension wrench is and when the change from "British Made" to "Made In England" occurred I would be most grateful. The AVT280 / R tension wrench I have has three scales i.e.
1. Tens of LB.INS [4 - 28]
2. LB.FEET [4 - 23]
3. KILOGRAM - METRES [0.55 - 3]
The overall length of the tool is 16 inches
Thank you in advance for any comments.

I have a 1973 Britool catalogue which shows your torque wrench, but with the Britool name (and 'Made in England') on a metal plate. That was about the time that James Neill took over Britool, so I wonder if they changed to the plate to incorporate their logo?

I have military issue Britool tools which, helpfully, are all dated, but are otherwise standard tools. I usually see 'British Made' on 50's vintage tools but I don't recall seeing it later.

On the basis of this I'd date your torque wrench between 1960 ish and 1973.

 

[Dave455]

I don't have the definitive answer, but there are various references on this thread to 1960 as an approximate cut-off. I am coincidentally very curious myself, as a I have found a pair of DUNLOP motorcycle spoons marked 'MADE IN ENGLAND' that I would like to put with some reasonable sense of authenticity in a BSA WDM20 toolkit. (I have a little leeway in the sense that I am preserving it "as is" - last reconditioned by REME in 1955 and sporting a heavy coat of NATO green paint.)

So my question is a qualification: Is 1960 an approximate date for an industry-wide marking change from 'British Made' to 'Made in England'? Or do the references to that as a changeover date pertain to Britool in particular?

Lugz - Here in the U.K. there is no 'industry wide' standard for these markings that I'm aware of. There are requirements for marking 'country of origin' and of course any markings are not allowed to be 'misleading', but other than that you can put what you like.

Folks here have suggested that as far as Britool are concerned 'British Made' appears on pre 1960 tools and 'Made in England' on later tools, and I can confirm this to an extent from the dated tools I own. (I have no 'British Made' post 1959)

Bear in mind that 'British Made' would include products made in Scotland and Wales wheras 'Made in England' would have to mean England itself!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, Dave.

 

[F124C]

I don't have the definitive answer, but there are various references on this thread to 1960 as an approximate cut-off. I am coincidentally very curious myself, as a I have found a pair of DUNLOP motorcycle spoons marked 'MADE IN ENGLAND' that I would like to put with some reasonable sense of authenticity in a BSA WDM20 toolkit. (I have a little leeway in the sense that I am preserving it "as is" - last reconditioned by REME in 1955 and sporting a heavy coat of NATO green paint.)

So my question is a qualification: Is 1960 an approximate date for an industry-wide marking change from 'British Made' to 'Made in England'? Or do the references to that as a changeover date pertain to Britool in particular?

Hi Lugz,

Your mention of Dunlop tyre levers (yes, they're called tyre levers, over here!) reminds me of buying Dunlop tyres in the 1960's that were marked 'Made in Great Britain'. This was when Britain still had an Empire.
However, I can't recall 'Made in Great Britain' ever appearing on handtools.

There was also another very popular British brand of tyre lever called 'Melco', very similar in appearance to the Dunlop versions. Melco also made axle stands (jack stands) which were popular for use in the Motor Trade and some other small tools such as plug spanners and tube spanners.

AL>

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks for the background, F124C. And just so you don't think I'm totally daft, I did cite some of the UK vernacular direct from the BSA manuals in the original thread, which is linked here, if you want to see the DUNLOP spoon-type tyre levers in question!

 

[VeeMax]

On the basis of this I'd date your torque wrench between 1960 ish and 1973.

Thank you MELLE, LUGZ and DAVE455 for your replies. I really appreciate your comments and I am amzed at the knowledge you all have regading old British tools. It would appear my torque wrench was built in "the good old days" so I will hold on to it.
One final question if I may.
The model is shown as AVT280-R. What does the R stand for ? Not ratchet obviously but could it stand for "Reversible" and if so why would you need a tension wrench to undo a fastener ? Intriguing. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks again.
VeeMax

 

[davethorik]

Left handed threaded fasteners.

 

[VeeMax]

"Left handed threaded fasteners."
Thank you davethorik for your reply. A dumb question but an excellent answer. I would never have figured that out. I have learnt something today.
Cheers
VeeMax

 

[dutchgray]

Lugz - Here in the U.K. there is no 'industry wide' standard for these markings that I'm aware of. There are requirements for marking 'country of origin' and of course any markings are not allowed to be 'misleading', but other than that you can put what you like.

Folks here have suggested that as far as Britool are concerned 'British Made' appears on pre 1960 tools and 'Made in England' on later tools, and I can confirm this to an extent from the dated tools I own. (I have no 'British Made' post 1959)

Bear in mind that 'British Made' would include products made in Scotland and Wales wheras 'Made in England' would have to mean England itself!

You see 'British Make' sometimes as well, I have several very old G clamps so marked, I think its an even older way of marking. There is quite a lot of old imported tools that are only marked 'Foreign' as well (cheap rubbish).

 

[Dave455]

Hi Lugz,

There was also another very popular British brand of tyre lever called 'Melco', very similar in appearance to the Dunlop versions. Melco also made axle stands (jack stands) which were popular for use in the Motor Trade and some other small tools such as plug spanners and tube spanners.

AL>

Melco are still going, and still seem to be making all the same stuff, though their distribution seems to be a bit shaky and their advertising non existent!

I needed two more axle stands for a project I was working on, and found the traditional Melco ones, of all places, at a local motor factor. Still Made in England, same quality, even the same colour, and only about £5 more then the usual Chinese offerings!

They seem to supply a lot of stuff through garage equipment suppliers, and my local bodyshop has loads of axle stands (including some massive tall ones) and tyre levers!

 

[Dave455]

Thank you MELLE, LUGZ and DAVE455 for your replies. I really appreciate your comments and I am amzed at the knowledge you all have regading old British tools. It would appear my torque wrench was built in "the good old days" so I will hold on to it.
One final question if I may.
The model is shown as AVT280-R. What does the R stand for ? Not ratchet obviously but could it stand for "Reversible" and if so why would you need a tension wrench to undo a fastener ? Intriguing. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks again.
VeeMax

Well, the 'A' stands for 'Aero' meaning it's a 3/8 drive tool.

'VT' is the code for a Torque Wrench - seem to recall it stands for 'variable torque' to distinguish if from 'fixed torque' wrenches made for production lines.

280 is the top end of the torque range in lb-in

... and I have no idea what the 'R' stands for.
It's certainly not 'reversible' since they are all reversible by pushing the square drive through!

They did make ratcheting torque wrenches, and these were distinguished by an 'R' suffix, but only in the latter years. Most of them, if I recall, had a 'T' suffix, and as you have obviously observed, yours isn't ratcheting anyway!

I await a response from someone motre knowledgable!

With regard to the date of your tool, now that I think about it, I'm fairly sure I've seen that style of torque wrench, WITHOUT the name plate, made much later than '73, so maybe the name plate was a short lived thing? Either way that's a classic tool of superb quality (in my experience they are a lot more durable than the Snap On equivalent) and well worth hanging on to! I have a rack of them on my wall...!

 

[fanders]

Time for some more Britool pics, after trying to fix the Photobucket broken link issues in my previous posts on this thread. H77 ratchet, 3/4" drive:

View media item 77000
View media item 77001
Mahoosive EXT 5C torque multiplier, quote a late model by the looks of the decal:

View media item 77002
View media item 77003
And a torque testing machine:

View media item 77004

 

[fanders]

Britool made bi-square 'RJQ' combination spanners, in addition to the bi-square sockets. I think they're quite rare now, they probably made only a few of these in comparison to the bi-hex RJM combination spanners:

View media item 77005

 

[humber2]

Britool made bi-square 'RJQ' combination spanners, in addition to the bi-square sockets. I think they're quite rare now, they probably made only a few of these in comparison to the bi-hex RJM combination spanners:

View media item 77005

What year Catalog are these from and what was the size range?

The one shown is small at 0.312" or 5/16 taken from the part number.

 

[F124C]

Thanks for the background, F124C. And just so you don't think I'm totally daft, ......................
........................
.........

Lugz, I'd be daft to think you were daft

I read everything you post about old tools with great interest

Many thanks for your efforts,

AL>

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Very kind of you to say, AL. Semi-retirement has its perks. I never had time to read as a young man.

 

[D350RDV]

Forgive me for replying to some rather old posts here. The 6RBMxxxx A series spanners are foreign made, but using up old stock wallets for the sets. The changeover was quite gradual and you can even see in some of the later catalogues that they were still using up old stock of slower moving items.

Interesting find though - I didn't realise they'd made any 6RBMA spanners before.

 

[D350RDV]

Here's a 'Dwarf' D77, just for good measure. This one apparently has a one-way roller bearing clutch mechanism, allowing movement of less than 1 degree between actions:

View media item 67428
The RS website had a little more information on the D77s, including a couple of different patterns (both now long discontinued, the black handle one is much later than the hard handle version):

View media item 67429
If anyone has any Britool catalogue scans showing the E77 and D77 ratchets (& X77 others?), please post 'em up - would be interesting to see. None feature in the 1949/1963 catalogues I have.

The black handle one is actually a Gordon fine tooth conventional ratchet! I've got the 1/2" version somewhere.

 

[D350RDV]

If anyone's interested there's another E77 for sale on UK eBay at the moment (I'm not, and have no connection to the seller!), nice condition and a slightly different head style to the one I have:

View media item 67740
View media item 67741
View media item 67742

Rare as they come -shame I've been too busy working all summer to keep an eye on Ebay or this thread. I think the E77 part number is the only one Britool used twice.

 

[D350RDV]

Looking at a James Neil tool catalogue from 1981 it shows on p.211 some diesel injection pump tools, including:-
No.221, a double-ended 'pipe nut wrench' 3/8 x 7/16 Whit (7/16 x 1/2 BS) for the high pressure delivery pipe nuts.
No. 225, a socket for delivery valve holders, diameter of serrations = 3/4"
No. 226, a socket for delivery valve holders, diameter of serrations = 1"

So maybe the wrench pictured above (currently listed on Ebay) is the above two functions combined. Being a whitworth size it might be for an older in-line injection pump e.g. C.A.V., Simms etc.

Brian~

There was also a 220 which covered 5/8" x 3/4" AF. We do vintage diesel fuel injection equipment overhauls and still use these tools regularly.

 

[D350RDV]

I have really enjoyed reading all the preceding pages of this topic and as a newbie to this forum so I hope it is OK if I chip in.
I have a Britool AVT280 / R tension wrench that is stamped "Made In England" and I would like to know the age of his tool.
An advertisement for Britool adjustable tension wrenches appeared in the Motor Industry magazine for December 1956 and the tool is stamped as "British Made".
If anyone could tell me the approximate age of this tension wrench is and when the change from "British Made" to "Made In England" occurred I would be most grateful. The AVT280 / R tension wrench I have has three scales i.e.
1. Tens of LB.INS [4 - 28]
2. LB.FEET [4 - 23]
3. KILOGRAM - METRES [0.55 - 3]
The overall length of the tool is 16 inches
Thank you in advance for any comments.

As others have already said, one "R" at the end of the part number denotes reversible" Two Rs denotes "Miniweight" model. This soon became the standard 1970's type torque wrench and the RR designation was dropped altogether.

An R in the prefix denotes a ratcheting model, so in other words an EVTR3000 was a ratcheting version of an EVT3000. Britool also made fixed torque wrenches for productions lines, and the equivalent in that range would have been an EFT3000 or EFTR3000 - so the V stood for variable, and the F for fixed.

 

[fanders]

Picked up some JENBRO 3J short-pattern 'Spearhead' metric open wrenches recently:

View media item 77137
View media item 77138
These are the same pattern as the 6J 'Spearhead Chrome' spanners, but were a cheaper version in carbon steel (as compared to 'chrome alloy' for the 6Js), and were finished in black stove enamel rather than nickel plate and chrome.

View media item 77142
It looks like the tooling they were forged in was very similar to the 6J pattern, but not identical - 16/17mm is very close:

View media item 77139
Whereas the smaller 8/9mm wrenches are slightly wider in the 6J pattern:

View media item 77140
View media item 77141
Nice to have in the collection though. I think that by numbers Britool/Jenks Bros must have produced many more chrome plated wrenches than carbon steel, based on the numbers still around today.

 

[D350RDV]

Or the lack of decent corrosion protection has just lead to the 3Js being thrown away or replaced with better stuff many years ago.

Either way, metric 3Js are a very unusual find in my experience - well done!

 

[fanders]

What year Catalog are these from and what was the size range?

View media item 77005
The one shown is small at 0.312" or 5/16 taken from the part number.

They're mentioned in Catalogue 104 (circa 1962):

View media item 77147
AF sizes only:

View media item 77148

 

[F124C]

Metric Jenbros, great find, didn't know they existed.

All of my Jenbro (and Williams Superslim) spanners came from car and truck toolkits, I've never seen them for sale in tool shops etc. I wonder if the metric Jenbros were originally supplied as part of a car/plant/equipment toolkit?

AL.

 

[D350RDV]

They're mentioned in Catalogue 104 (circa 1962):

Thank you for posting those scans - I've never known what the available size range of the RJQ's was.

The 5/16" seem to be the most common (or should that be least rare?) size, and I have a theory that it is because they fit the toolposts on Colchester lathes.

 

[D350RDV]

Metric Jenbros, great find, didn't know they existed.

All of my Jenbro (and Williams Superslim) spanners came from car and truck toolkits, I've never seen them for sale in tool shops etc. I wonder if the metric Jenbros were originally supplied as part of a car/plant/equipment toolkit?

AL.

I had suspected the same, but the fact that Fanders seems to have a complete set makes that theory less likely IMHO.

Anthony

 

[F124C]

Wouldn't it be great to be able to talk with someone who worked at the factory (factory floor or sales) to find out what sizes were actually produced and who purchased what sizes.?

Were there any Jenbro ring or combination spanners produced?

I have a few box spanners (aka tube spanners) that came in the above mentioned toolkits that are finished in 'Jenbro black'. I wonder if these where made by Jenbro, no markings present except for sizes?

AL.

 

[D350RDV]

One day I'l probably regret selling this very nice 3/4" drive A/F and metric set.

 

[F124C]

One day I'l probably regret selling this very nice 3/4" drive A/F and metric set.

Back in the day, as a young Mechanic, that set was on my wish list.
It was always just out of reach.... I couldn't justify buying the full set as I had already bought the few sizes in 3/4 drive that I needed. Sure would have been nice to have though!

****** heavy too!

AL.

 

[D350RDV]

Back in the day, as a young Mechanic, that set was on my wish list.
It was always just out of reach.... I couldn't justify buying the full set as I had already bought the few sizes in 3/4 drive that I needed. Sure would have been nice to have though!

****** heavy too!

AL.

Heavy? Oh definitely!

I've got a full set of Britool 3/4" sockets anyway, but I bought this to put in our workshop van. The weight, and the fact it was just too nice to rattle about in the back of a potentially damp van led to me buying some new (cheaper) sockets of the sizes I need.

 

[Grimly]

I had suspected the same, but the fact that Fanders seems to have a complete set makes that theory less likely IMHO.

Anthony

I'd always assumed the black Jenbros (and others I can think of) were industrial supply. Not normally found in personal toolkits, but many found their way out of works one way or other.

 

[winchman]

Hello
My son has just started to collect Britool socket sets, have you any info about the 145A set?

 

[fanders]

The 145 sets were the most comprehensive 1/2" socket sets sold by Britool, with all the accessory handles/extensions etc and the full range of sockets:

1/8"-3/4" Whitworth
7/16"- 1 1/4" AF
10-32mm
3/8" - 1" AF Bisquare

Catalogue 109 (1971) lists only Set 145C, so perhaps 145As were earlier versions? Anyway, a superb bit of old Britool. Here's a file photo of a 145 set (not sure which version) for reference:

View media item 77961
Hefty at 44lb per set!

 

[3baygarage]

That's a large set.

Is it your set? From here, the T handle looks like this JH Williams.

http://alloy-artifacts.org/Photos/tools/williams_12dr_s20c_breaker_tee_f_cropped_inset2.jpg

 

[winchman]

The 145 sets were the most comprehensive 1/2" socket sets sold by Britool, with all the accessory handles/extensions etc and the full range of sockets:

1/8"-3/4" Whitworth
7/16"- 1 1/4" AF
10-32mm
3/8" - 1" AF Bisquare

Catalogue 109 (1971) lists only Set 145C, so perhaps 145As were earlier versions? Anyway, a superb bit of old Britool. Here's a file photo of a 145 set (not sure which version) for reference:

View media item 77961
Hefty at 44lb per set!

ThanksDo you have scan of the catalogue page?

 

[winchman]

That's a large set.

Is it your set? From here, the T handle looks like this JH Williams.

http://alloy-artifacts.org/Photos/tools/williams_12dr_s20c_breaker_tee_f_cropped_inset2.jpg

I will let you know, its currently being delivered, should be here early next week.

 

[fanders]

Found a catalogue entry for a 145A socket set, from Catalogue 104 (circa 1962):

View media item 77983
47lb per set!

 

[winchman]

Thanks thats much appreciated

 

[B.Boru]

''''