Broken bolt in cast aluminum need help

[truck]

So I bought my son a 2005 Mini. It needed the transmission fluid and filter changed. One of the pan bolts twisted off in the cast aluminum transmission housing. I planned to drill it out. I drilled one small hole. Then on stepping the bit size up, the tip of the carbon bit broke off. I didn't know it until the bit started smoking a little. I have been unable to drill through it.

Anybody have any suggestions on how best get this out?

Truck

 

[Cypherian]

So I bought my son a 2005 Mini. It needed the transmission fluid and filter changed. One of the pan bolts twisted off in the cast aluminum transmission housing. I planned to drill it out. I drilled one small hole. Then on stepping the bit size up, the tip of the carbon bit broke off. I didn't know it until the bit started smoking a little. I have been unable to drill through it.

Anybody have any suggestions on how best get this out?

Truck

Dremel tool / Pencil grinder with double cut carbide small ball to work around the tip till it falls out. Or take a hardwood block place it over the bolt hole use an air hammer with a mushroom head on it and a quick trigger burst or three and it might vibrate it loose enough to fall out. Just becareful of your placement of the block and such and do not lose controll of the air hammer and fire the tip off into the motor or something important lol. IE put the retention spring on it. You can do it with a ball peen to really quick rapping etc, I would try this before the dremel / pencil grinder be less tedious and worrisome.

Cypher

 

[truck]

Thank you but at this point it isn't going to fall out. The other metal around it is solid.

Truck

 

[Cypherian]

If it is one of several bolts, which I'm sure it is, and it is a non critical position, as in: just one of the bolts on the pan, I'd goober it up with some sealant and hopefully be done with it for another 100k miles.
Or you can air hammer the casting until you need a new transmission case....

It's a ten year old car that may not even leak when you tighten down the pan.
Do that. Or fail greater.

Ducks..please read correctly it' s block of hardwood, air hammer , quick burst of trigger 2 or 3 times not till destruction or damage occurs. I have done this several dozen times on Airframe Aluminum , Steel, Stainless Steel , Titanium castings etc dating back to 1962 . When you work flight line structural repair on aircraft you do not always have a full fabrication shop or machine shop available so you learn how to do it in the field. It works and is proven find a few USAF 2a7X3 or older Afsc iE 427X5 and they will tell you it works.

Cypher

 

[Cypherian]

Thank you but at this point it isn't going to fall out. The other metal around it is solid.

Truck

You said the tip broke... Am I to read the smoking bit was the melting of the parent bolt metal back to the drill tip ? :{ If so UGh then yeah it's a double cut small dental carbide burr and a dremel or air pencil grinder to get past the tip. Can you get a good picture of it ?

Cypher

 

[Cypherian]

Ducks
I took the air hammer the casting till you need a new one as a statement of disbelief on the method. For further clarification it only works for right hand twist drill bits. The high speed vibration will make a broken NON SMOKED lol drill bit unstick most of the time and actually back it self out. I do not know the science behind it as some here are bound to try and argue you the point but been there and done it. After I was shown the trick by another VERY OLD lol ( 35 ) structrual repair guy :} ( I being 20) lol. Snap on used to sell 4 fluted bits for drilling through easy outs I do not know if they do anymore. I stopped using easy outs a long time ago again after being shown how to grind a screw chisel out of a lathe bit and a screw extractor out of a lathe bit. If you like i will take some pictures of them tomorrow evening and post.

 

[Cypherian]

A picture is required from you, but if you have the ability, think of an old Chevy valve cover keeper.
Make brace that goes to the bolts on either side and straddles your broken one if the goobering still leaks.

Too many solutions to spend time drilling the bolt that may not be integral or leak.

That is a slick idea with luck the area the bolt belongs is flat enough if all else fails.


Cypher

 

[sberry]

Run short self driller on both sides of broke bolt. If I really wanted to remove it would weld it out, super easy in alum.

 

[Shadowdog500]

A small carbide burr in a dremel or some thing like my dental drill will get the tip of the drill bit out of the hole. Here it is after I drilled out a broken tap.


Here it is drilling out a bolt in a tight situation.



Once out drill get the broken bit out try some left handed bits from HF. They appear to be cobolt and work pretty well.

I assume you do have the pan back on for all if this drilling, or gave something completely sealing everything.

Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

Did the head snap off while removing it, or did it break while putting it on?

If it broke coming out that bolt us frozen so drilling may be the right choice.

If it broke off from being overtorqued a straight pick and small hammer is all you usually need to turn the bolt counter clockwise to remove it.

Chris

 

[padronanniversary]

A small carbide burr in a dremel or some thing like my dental drill will get the tip of the drill bit out of the hole. Here it is after I drilled out a broken tap.


Here it is drilling out a bolt in a tight situation.



What tool is that ? I've never seen a right angle dremel like that other than my dentist


Once out drill get the broken bit out try some left handed bits from HF. They appear to be cobolt and work pretty well.

I assume you do have the pan back on for all if this drilling, or gave something completely sealing everything.

Chris

What tool is that ? I've never seen a right angle dremel like that other than my dentist

 

[Shadowdog500]

What tool is that ? I've never seen a right angle dremel like that other than my dentist

It is an $18 dental drill that I bought off of amazon. The bit is a $1 dental bit from Amazon.

Chris

 

[truck]

To answer some of ya'lls questions: Bolt broke trying to remove it, so it is frozen (I was using a 1/4 ratchet as well so not much torque). Although I like the strap idea this is on a corner and unlike a chevy ****** pan there are only a few (8 I think) bolts in this pan. I will take a picture to show.

Cypherian, do you have a picture of the type of dremel bit you are talking about?

ShadowDog, that is pretty cool, I didn't know it might be that inexpensive for those kind of tools. How do they connect to your compressor, standard quick release or did you have to fab something?
Do you have a link to the tools on amazon, I can't find any that inexpensive?

Truck

 

[truck]

Is this the kind of bit you are talking about?

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...ber=94764-353-7134&storeId=10151&rel=nofollow

 

[Cypherian]

Hey Truck,

I am at work let me see if I can grab a picture from the web. They are the same bits used in dental tools but they also fit in a dremel or pencil air grinder give me a moment. If not I will be home after 1600 EST

Cypher

 

[truck]

No worries, I was just wondering if it was something I could pick up at Lowes or HD on the way home from work myself. Or if it was something I needed to order.

Truck

 

[Cypherian]

They look Like these

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000RB1DH6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

You might find a place that has a large dremel tool selection has single pack double cut carbide small ball on hand.

As for the tool to use it in I have several to choose from it does depend on where it is at and what access I have.
Dremel MUlTI Pro I have an older version of this one http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002L3RUW0/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Sioux Pencil Grinder

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001X1XOS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Kevin54]

I'll tell you right now, and I have removed thousands of broken screw, broken easy-outs, and broken carbide drills........If you do not have a rigid setup, carbide will bounce off of carbide. You can try it, but it you break the ball off in there, you may just be doublefucked. If it were me, I would make a strap that takes in both holes either side of the broken bolt. Only on very rare occasions do you ever use a small carbide drill bit in a hand drill. If you wiggle once, and the drill is in there by any depth at all, you will snap it off every time.

Give it a try, the worst that can happen is you screw it up more. If you can see the bolt and the drill bit, weld a nut over both of them. The weld won't stick to the aluminum. You stand a better chance going that route that you will trying to drill it. You might also want to try a pointed punch and shatter the carbide bit. If it is down in the hole, get a punch that will fit in behind it, and give it hell. Then get a small pick and pick out the pieces.

IF per chance you get the broken carbide out, get a little larger HSS bit, and drill a little larger hole so you can tap the bolt but stay inside of your current threads. Tap it with a L.H. tap. The get a L.H. Socket heat cap screw, or a bolt, and screw it down into your current bolt. Use a Grade 8 or a S.H.C.S. as they are a little tougher. When you replace the bolts, get a good stainless bolt, or us some socked head cap screws as they have a black oxide coating and will not corrode in the aluminum.

 

[Kevin54]

I also wanted to mention.......if you get in a bind, and you decide that you are going to strap it, let me know and I can help you out on that, although you would be down for a couple of day.

 

[truck]

Kevin,
I wouldn't be opposed to strapping it, however since it is a corner bolt I'm not sure of the strength of a strap to hold enough pressure on the pan.

Truck

 

[owenst7]

Maybe I missed it, but hold a nut centered over the snapped bolt with pliers and use a wire feed to weld through the center to the broken bolt. Not only will the aluminum hole get bigger than the steel bolt, you'll now have something to grab to back it out. Might take a couple tries to get a decent weld, but this works very well.

Just did it a week ago to get an exhaust bolt out of an iron head that was close to a quarter inch below flush.

Also start by lightly wiggling it tight then loose. Spray good PENETRANT (not wd40)) in there while your wiggling it. A lot of pan threads aren't blind holes, so spray from above if you can so that gravity will help.

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin,
I wouldn't be opposed to strapping it, however since it is a corner bolt I'm not sure of the strength of a strap to hold enough pressure on the pan.

Truck

Truck.......it would have to be made about like the Chevy spreader bars they used on the older valve covers, only reversed. The ends will have to be higher on the strap and the center lower where the broken bolt is. That way, when you put pressure on the ends, because of the bow in the strap it will put extra pressure at the area of the broken bolt. You would have to use longer bolts on the ends of the strap though.

 

[brawls43]

Dremel doesn't seem to have the double cut carbide balls, but something like what you posted, or like this should grind through the hardened drill bit.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_93429-353-9910-03_0__?productId=1209993&Ntt=dremel+carbide&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddremel%2Bcarbide&facetInfo=

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin,
If instead of or along with, the slight bow, you tap and allow for a considerably larger bolt in the spot where the broken bolt is, he can turn the now center bigger bolt and adjust his pressure to cure the potential (I'm still not convinced it will leak) leak.

Otherwise the bow will be static, maybe too little pressure, maybe stock won't bend well enough to allow the anchors to seat.

Duck.....I like that idea, and that would be way easier to fabricate I know exactly what you are talking about.

Truck.......if you have access to a bandsaw, a drill, and a tap, that is something you could make at home. Use your gasket as a template. Use some 3/16" or 1/4" Cold Rolled Steel (CRS), trace your gasket onto it. Cut it out, put a clearance hole on each end for the two end bolts, then put a threaded hole in where the broken stud bolt goes, and make it as large as you can so that it is larger than the pan hole.

But along with Duck, and a few others.....you use a good sealer around the gasket, I doubt it will leak either.

Also, if all of your bolts were a little tough coming.....before you put it back together, run a tap in the holes to clean them out. You may also want to use a little dab of Anti-Seize on the bolt threads also when you reassemble things. And make sure when you clean the threads out that you have the correct tap. It's a very easy mistake that someone may have ran SAE's in a place where metric bolts should have been. Some SAE and Metric bolts are so close that things won't really bind until you are 3 or 4 threads into it, and even checking the pitch with a thread gage, if you don't have a keen eye, the thread gage will fit either SAE or Metric. But what throws the wrench into the works would be the diameter. I've seen it happen quite a few times.

 

[owenst7]

Yes, you missed it entirely. There is no longer a mere bolt.
There is the tip of a carbide drill, then the very mangled remains of the bolt, all welded together by the spinning drill rod against the broken tip.

That shouldn't affect what I'm saying at all.

OP: If you don't have access to a welder, I'm sure someone on a local Jeep forum does.

 

[404]

Left handed drill bits (from HF or other) are what should be used to start off with. It may not be too late to try them yet.

A regular right handed drill bit is going to tighten the broken piece in more as the bolt collapses around the bit.

 

[Shadowdog500]

ShadowDog, that is pretty cool, I didn't know it might be that inexpensive for those kind of tools. How do they connect to your compressor, standard quick release or did you have to fab something?
Do you have a link to the tools on amazon, I can't find any that inexpensive?

Truck

I bought it off of ebay. look up the numbers i post here in ebay. They are from my purchase history. on multiple occasions I've had to drill stuff and thought a dental drill would be great for this. when i saw cheap dental drills are $18 on amazon, i bought it. I use regular air tool lube in it.

dental drill $18 111186455016
10 pack of round head carbide burrs for the drill. $13 121347175414

hose for the drill. $11 281230283062

the max pressure for the drill is 30 PSI

i use a $3 air blow gun from HF to turn the drill on and off.

i put a cheap HF regulator on the blowgun as well.

I bought a $5 foot controller from Hong Kong on Ebay but haven't rigged it up yet.

Chris

 

[Kevin54]

Left handed drill bits (from HF or other) are what should be used to start off with. It may not be too late to try them yet.
A regular right handed drill bit is going to tighten the broken piece in more as the bolt collapses around the bit.

The problem is.....he has a broken piece of carbide drill broken off in the bolt also. Carbide is a real ***** kitty to get out. You can do it with carbide, but it is a 50/50 chance of doing it, as on is just as hard as the other. You break two off in there, you are doubly screwed. I've removed broken carbide thousands of times using carbide, and I've also broke a carbide tool off hundreds of times. And whatever carbide tool you use, when using it against carbide, it is ruined for use on anything else. It also needs a rigid setup to work without getting into more trouble.

 

[TommyD]

How big is the drilled hole compared to the bolt ID? Is it on center? How deep did you get the drill before it broke?

I like the idea of the left hand drill bit, especially if you still have bolt dia. left. Try using a lot of pressure on the drill and use short pulls on the trigger to try and raise a burr for the bit to bite onto, you may be able to back the whole thing out.

I've smashed out hardened taps out of too many holes to count, carbide is the same, brittle and doesn't like shock but you have to be able to see it.

The dental drill may also work, the poster had success.

Heli-coils can be your friend if the hole ends up oversized.

 

[truck]

Okay folks here are some pics. As you can see there aren't many bolts in this pan and this one is hanging off by itself, thus my concern on just putting a ******** it being able to put enough pressure. On the pan I am pointing to the hole with the broken bolt. It is hard to see in the picture but there is not enough bolt to grab (not even a full thread), otherwise I would have done that. The drill bit didn't break of far, but I think it is fused at this point.

Truck

 

[truck]

Dremel doesn't seem to have the double cut carbide balls, but something like what you posted, or like this should grind through the hardened drill bit.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_93429-353-9910-03_0__?productId=1209993&Ntt=dremel+carbide&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddremel%2Bcarbide&facetInfo=

I did see this set online at HD, would diamond particle edges help?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Dremel-Diamond-Point-Set-7103-7144-7150/203362662

Owenst7: I did understand what you stated and it might be a possibility, but it would be hard to hold the nut in place since there is nothing to thread onto. I've welded a nut onto many a bolt to get it out, usually after I've had to grind the head off.

I'm leaving town tomorrow for Valley Forge, PA and won't be back until the weekend, so keep ideas coming for me to mull over. Also plenty of time to order something from amazon and with prime I should have it when I get back. So if you have a specific bit to order link it up. I do have a dremel 4200.

Truck

 

[Spareparts]

Duck's got the right idea. Plenty of room to do it.

 

[owenst7]

I did see this set online at HD, would diamond particle edges help?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Dremel-Diamond-Point-Set-7103-7144-7150/203362662

Owenst7: I did understand what you stated and it might be a possibility, but it would be hard to hold the nut in place since there is nothing to thread onto. I've welded a nut onto many a bolt to get it out, usually after I've had to grind the head off.

I'm leaving town tomorrow for Valley Forge, PA and won't be back until the weekend, so keep ideas coming for me to mull over. Also plenty of time to order something from amazon and with prime I should have it when I get back. So if you have a specific bit to order link it up. I do have a dremel 4200.

Truck

You don't need anything to thread on to. That is a perfect application for the welder.

Assuming you're right handed:
Put your ground clamp somewhere on the aluminum case so that the arc wants to move through the snapped bolt. You have an advantage here in that the surrounding material is aluminum and of very little risk of being damaged by the weld. Use some junk needle-nose pliers to hold the nut flat against the pan mating surface. Use your right hand to hold the mig gun. Start with enough wire sticking out that you can touch the snapped bolt in the center with the nozzle far enough away from the nut. Do a series of very quick tacks like you would for welding a fender. Stop and let it cool if it starts to glow, just like you would a fender. After a few tacks, the puddle will have built up in an to the top of the nut. Let the nut cool to where it's not glowing, but while it's still hot, grab it with some better pliers (since a socket or wrench will most likely not fit anymore due to the weld), and gently rock it clockwise and counterclockwise. You will feel it loosen up gradually and you'll be able to thread it completely out.

Seriously, that's one of the easiest applications I've seen for a welder to fix. You'll spend more time setting up the welder than you will actually welding it.

This is a broken 5/16" exhaust bolt that was closest to the firewall on the drivers side of an SBC (underneath the master cylinder, still in the truck) that I got out a couple weeks ago. Took about five minutes. It was almost a quarter inch below the surface. I started with a washer because the inside diameter was so small that the wire would end up arcing to the nut. Once I built up the weld to the surface of the washer, I just did a couple tacks inside the nut and it came right out with some wiggling.

I've also done it on dozens of Toyota 22RE water pump bolts, which I believe are M4 or M6.

 

[404]

The problem is.....he has a broken piece of carbide drill broken off in the bolt also. Carbide is a real ***** kitty to get out. You can do it with carbide, but it is a 50/50 chance of doing it, as on is just as hard as the other. You break two off in there, you are doubly screwed. I've removed broken carbide thousands of times using carbide, and I've also broke a carbide tool off hundreds of times. And whatever carbide tool you use, when using it against carbide, it is ruined for use on anything else. It also needs a rigid setup to work without getting into more trouble.

Okay good point. The LH bit might grab it all and spin it out but maybe not. A diamond dental burr would go after the carbide.
I got some diamond burrs locally but it must be an easy mail order item.

Good news is the inside of the ****** looks clean.

Just an fiy, but I have read that nitric acid will burn out the steel and not attack the aluminium. I have personally removed a broken steel bolt from an AL part by boiling it in a solution of alum and water. It takes a long time and makes the AL grey and ugly, but by Gord it works. Either is hard to do on a ****** on a car.

 

[404]

You don't need anything to thread on to. That is a perfect application for the welder.

Assuming you're right handed:
Put your ground clamp somewhere on the aluminum case so that the arc wants to move through the snapped bolt. You have an advantage here in that the surrounding material is aluminum and of very little risk of being damaged by the weld. Use some junk needle-nose pliers to hold the nut flat against the pan mating surface. Use your right hand to hold the mig gun. Start with enough wire sticking out that you can touch the snapped bolt in the center with the nozzle far enough away from the nut. Do a series of very quick tacks like you would for welding a fender. Stop and let it cool if it starts to glow, just like you would a fender. After a few tacks, the puddle will have built up in an to the top of the nut. Let the nut cool to where it's not glowing, but while it's still hot, grab it with some better pliers (since a socket or wrench will most likely not fit anymore due to the weld), and gently rock it clockwise and counterclockwise. You will feel it loosen up gradually and you'll be able to thread it completely out.

Seriously, that's one of the easiest applications I've seen for a welder to fix. You'll spend more time setting up the welder than you will actually welding it.

And please DO disconnect the ground on the battery. And any electrical connections on the ****** if you feel frisky. Like owenst7 says Put the ground clamp of the welder Real real REAL close the the area to be welded. Shut your eyes before the extra melted blob of steel drips off.

 

[dogdog]

If there are still something you can grab with a nice vise grip piler, AND you can safely heat that corner up (without igniting the tran fluids) with one of those oxy/mapp torches , (might needed a few cycles), those metal screws on a aluminum parts comes off very easily, even if it is frozen in. I took off a few 30+ year old froze screws off those cast aluminum electrical boxes easily with that. Welding nut also work but those bolt might be too small for most mig / tig welding.

 

[owenst7]

And please DO disconnect the ground on the battery. And any electrical connections on the ****** if you feel frisky. Like owenst7 says Put the ground clamp of the welder Real real REAL close the the area to be welded. Shut your eyes before the extra melted blob of steel drips off.

I guess this is America, isn't it? lol

Always wear proper PPE, do not operate welders in the vicinity of flammables, and beware of electric currents.

According to every repair manual I've ever seen, the first step to checking the air pressure in your tires is always to disconnect the battery. Haha

Actually in this case, I'd probably go as far as to unplug the computer if it's easy to get to, but unplugging the battery and putting the ground clamp on the ****** case nearby should be fine.

 

[ihatelaramie]

Just as an FYI, I don't know how many bolts are in that ****** pan, but as suggested before, you may be ok without that bolt, as a last resort. There's an 03 6.0 Ford sitting not 20ft from me that's missing a few bolts on the ****** pan. Been that way for 30k+ miles. ******* that had the truck before me overtorqued the pan bolts, and I didn't find out until the Sunday evening that I went to service it. Hasn't leaked a bit, and I'm missing a corner bolt.

 

[owenst7]

Did I miss the post about his mig welder?

If he's into Jeeps, I'd bet ya he has at least one friend with one, and if not, there's a local offroad forum with at least a dozen members that do. They are super common tools in that hobby. Hell, I'm sure the HF unit would work fine for something this easy. You could probably even do this with three batteries in series.

I know if you post in the newb section on Pirate you'll find people that can help you there.

A 6 pack and some pizza will be a lot cheaper than tracking down expensive drill bits and other tools. Plus, you might make a new friend.

 

[MoonRise]

Weld a nut to the bolt remains.

Gives you a wrench/grab surface and the intense heat (thermal expansion and contraction) helps to loosen the frozen threads.

Nut breaks off after welding and the bolt remains didn't come out yet? Repeat until the bolt remains come out.

It will probably take longer to get the welder out and 'mask' off the ****** bottom (couple of rags, you really don't want to get any sort of ****/crud into the ******) than to do the actual welding. A MIG (actual MIG aka GMAW) welder is perfect for this sort of thing. FCAW can work, but more splatter and slag to deal with (see note above about ****/crud in a ******). SMAW (aka stick) welding can work, but again some slag to deal with (for bigger bolts/studs, there are actually some 'special' electrodes made just for this sort of thing, although pretty much any electrode can work).

Hmmm, about 5 minutes of welding (including the prep time ) versus grind the bolt remains down (see above note about ****/crud in a ******) and then drill and tap for additional fasteners and modify the pan for those additional fasteners? Welding wins in this case IMNSHO.

Pretty much like owenst7 said, except I usually prefer to use an old set of vise-grips to grab the nut while welding. No having to constantly remember to squeeze the handle on a pair of needle nose pliers so you don't drop the nut, and the vise-grips are already clamped onto the nut once the welding is done so you can just turn the vise-grips and remove the welded nut-n-bolt.