BS and whitworth tools

[2ndGearRubber]

The frequency of British cars at work has been increasing, all 1965 and newer. Up until now, metric has covered most of my needs. But sometimes the fitment obviously isnt great, and as I get deeper into these cars I expect metric isnt going to cut it. Lots of the common use fasteners have been converted to sae and metric by now anyways.

So, educate me on british fasteners. Looks like BS and whitworth head sizes do cross over, but as different sizes in each measurement style?

What size ranges should I be looking at for these vehicles? Is a basic amazon/import set up to the task? They seem to do metric and sae just fine. Koken also sells them, but obviously the price is higher, and my use will be limited. I figure a 3/8 set of deep and shallow would be all I need, as my 3/8 in 1/4 body ratchets appear to have plenty of room to work around the car.

 

[lardy1]

I bought a mint set of Koken Whitworth sockets at a flea market. I couldn't see them well enough to see what they were but when the guy said ten bucks, I bought them. Turned them over for a profit the next week on eBay.

Other than bragging about that lucky score, I really can't help educate you. I did read up on it but didn't retain it.

 

[vssjim]

Depending on the brand of car you are working on a lot of those cars were inch series fasteners by then. If you really find some have British fasteners on them go to EBAY and look up tools as there are a lot of sellers and all price ranges. I have King ****, PROTO no longer available and even some SnapOn sockets that are also obsolete. I will say again though make sure the are not SAE that you need first.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I find most things I encounter on this era British stuff is SAE or metric, mostly the former. All of the 4 point fasteners I have encountered on those cars have also been SAE. I have pounds and pounds of metric and SAE. Much like Northstar water pump sockets, I prefer to have and not need.

I should specify, most of the British stuff I'm seeing of this era are Triumph, and MG. Should I expect to 100% not need whitworth or BS anywhere on these cars? What where the last models where such fasteners where still common?

 

[vssjim]

I find most things I encounter on this era British stuff is SAE or metric, mostly the former. All of the 4 point fasteners I have encountered on those cars have also been SAE. I have pounds and pounds of metric and SAE. Much like Northstar water pump sockets, I prefer to have and not need.

I should specify, most of the British stuff I'm seeing of this era are Triumph, and MG. Should I expect to 100% not need whitworth or BS anywhere on these cars? What where the last models where such fasteners where still common?

The motorcycles used British sizing's long after the cars did, the cars you are talking about above I always used inch series tools on them that I worked on that were from the sixties. The British stuff we worked on back then were big on inch series fine thread fasteners and lots of them.

 

[Chucktin]

Whitworth (I still have a couple stashed) is really not that much different than SAE in size. It's the way they were labeled that makes them different. If memory serves SAE is labeled accross the flats on the bolt head or nut. Whitworth is labeled for the stud diameter ... I think. Maybe I've got that reversed? Been a long time since my brit car days. Are they coming back? I'd like a TR3B in BRG with brown upholstery. Hated the ones with the side curtains! Silly idea. One final comment - at that time there was a difference between French Metric and everyone else!

 

[2ndGearRubber]

The motorcycles used British sizing's long after the cars did, the cars you are talking about above I always used inch series tools on them that I worked on that were from the sixties. The British stuff we worked on back then were big on inch series fine thread fasteners and lots of them.

Works for me. If I can expect everything to be SAE, I'll push Whitworth to the back burner.

 

[dscheidt]

Works for me. If I can expect everything to be SAE, I'll push Whitworth to the back burner.

They'll be almost all UN fasteners. (UN is the rationalized thread system developed for war production. It is almost, but not quite, what you think of as SAE.) lots of fine threaded fasteners, especially where you can only turn the wrench one flat before having to reposition.

Whitworth and BS (which are different. Both use 55 degree threads, and the same sizes, and largely interchange. Whitworth was the original standard, someone decided the bolt heads were too big, and created BS, which has one size smaller heads. To confuse you, tools are often marked with both sizes.) is mostly confined to old designs and the internals of machines. They turn up in transmissions.

the other kind of fastener that turns up on british cars are 'BA' (british association) threads, for machine screw type applications. BA is an absolutely insane thread standard (it's a logical metric system, converted to inches, and rounded. So you have things the 4BA, screws have 38.48 tpi, and require a 0.248 wrench.), you probably don't have to care about the details. You do need to be aware it exists, and that it turns up in electronics, instruments, and such like.

 

[Tostal]

The problem with old British cars in terms of when Whitworth/British Standard were superceded by Inch or Metric fasteners is very difficult to answer - it really depends on which make/model you talking about. Remember that many British models were produced for many years e.g. MG MGB from c. 1965 to 1981? same with the Mini, Triumph Tr's/Spitfires etc. The manufacturers continued to use what they had always used especially on engines/gearboxes/axles. Even British made Fords didn't start to use Metric until c. 1975 (and even then they had a mix of Inch and Metric).

I'd normally recommend considering getting a set of 3/8" drive standard length sockets from 1/8"W(3/16"BS) to 1/2"W(9/16"BS) and a set of combination wrenches in the same sizes. You don't need deep sockets, a short (1" or 2") extension in conjunction with the standard sockets will suffice. Also 2BA and 4BA open-end wrenches - you'll probably encounter these sizes on distributor nuts and on the rear of instruments/gauges. (however, many just carefully use a small adjustable wrench if they don't have these sizes and haven't got a close enough inch/metric wrench, such nuts won't be very tight, BA wrenches can be hard to find nowadays...).

But as you've already found, some of these Whit/BS sizes are very close to Inch or Metric. e.g. 1/8"Whit/(3/16"BS) is the same as 11/32" Inch; 3/16"W(1/4"BS)is a little larger than 7/16" (a worn 7/16" may fit);
1/4"W(5/16"BS) is slightly larger than 13mm, so a worn 13mm may fit,
5/16"Whit(3/8"BS) is slightly larger than 15mm,
3/8"W(7/16"BS) is virtually the same as 18mm. The larger Whit/BS sizes can usually be taken care of by Inch or Metric as there's usually not a lot of difference. (Well not enough to make much of a difference, if you're careful).

Some of the older Haynes Owner's Workshop manuals used to include a 'Spanner jaw gap comparison table' which clearly shows which size wrench is required for a certain bolt head size and also shows the relationship between the various Whit/BS, Inch and Metric size wrenches.

There may be lots of suppliers of Whitworth/BS sockets etc in the USA but the following stocks British made 'King ****' (always good for as laugh ) along with lots of other tools for working on older British cars :-

www.mossmotors.com and type either Tools or Whitworth into the search box.

Hth,

T~

 

[ZRX61]

Worked on LR's made when they changed over. Weirdest damn thing... It was like someone had drawn a line from one front corner to the oppsite side rear corner. Everything on one side of the line was Brit, everything on the other was metric.
Thought someone had been playing silly fuckers, then discovered the second LR was exactly the same.

 

[Dave455]

I can give you the full explanation of BS and Whitworth when I have a bit more time, but the British motor industry switched from Whitworth to Unified in about 1958, so you will only need Whitworth for things older than that.

1965 and newer will all use regular “SAE” sizes.

The only thing you might need are some BA sizes, for smaller fasteners. The U.K. never adopted the Unified “numbered” series as BA sizes were so common, so you won’t ever need a size smaller than 3/8, but you will find BA sizes around. Generally 2/4/6/8 BA, but 5 BA on SU petrol pumps and 7 BA on some carbs.