Build a Pressure Washer?

[danski0224]

The pressure washer I own started giving issues, and I doubt it is the GX390 engine.

However, I am unable to separate the CAT 4SF40GH1 pump from the engine shaft, so it will have to be cut off. I have owned it for a long time, and it was used when I bought it. It has been rebuilt once that I am aware of.

Considering that I will have to buy a pump anyways, and the engine is (probably) still good, I would like to build a new belt drive pressure washer around it. I really do not want to spend the coin on buying a new one out of the box.

That means a belt drive cart with belt guard, pump, pump mount, sheaves and bushings.

The other stuff can be reused, and I do have some new parts that won't be installed on the current broken one.

Would like to stay at 4 GPM and 4,000 (rated) psi.

Any suggestions?

 

[The Cobbler]

just some random thoughts....
why do you think it's not the engine? what is it doing or not doing that makes you think it's the pump?
a belt drive set up will rob the pump of a lot of horsepower.
the pump will come off the engine, it's on a taper that needs to be pulled or shocked off.

 

[danski0224]

There's no set screw and it will not come off, even using the 2 8mm threaded holes and bolts.

It moved about 3/16 of an inch, and no more. Penetrating oil, whacking it with a dead blow hammer... tried pushing the pump back on the little bit that it moved... nope. Not budging.

I wanted to run the engine without the pump for diagnosis.

 

[danski0224]

Bump.

 

[mike93lx]

@fatfillup is the pressure washer GOAT

 

[fatfillup]

@fatfillup is the pressure washer GOAT

Don't know about goat but 40 years of selling and servicing will learn ya something
Happy to help when I can

But Mike, without you, I would never see the questions

 

[mike93lx]

Dan, do you use it enough that the added pump life of a belt drive is really worth the trouble?

I've been looking at 4gpm units as well and @fatfillup has been recommending general pump, specifically the EZ4040. Going belt drive is an added $350ish when buying new, at least on the units I am looking at, which doesn't feel worthwhile for the use case of a homeowner

 

[danski0224]

Dan, do you use it enough that the added pump life of a belt drive is really worth the trouble?

Going strictly by usage, no.

However, if my current unit was belt drive, I could have just popped the belts off to see if the issue was on the engine or pump side. Right now, the pump isn't coming off in one piece.

I could also pop the belts off and run the engine more often than I do now, and for longer due to the lack of a requirement to have water running through it. Certainly would be easier than sliding the pump off of the shaft... but I would certainly use anti-seize.

I have had this pressure washer for at least 15 years, and paid to have the pump rebuilt once. The extra $350 is not a big deal in the big picture, at least for me.

A new Honda engine seems to run near $1k, and it still works, so hopefully the parts to put something together will be less than simply buying a whole new setup in a box.

 

[mike93lx]

Considering you have to buy everything else, and the engine is 15 years old, it may be worth thinking about selling the engine and buying a new setup? Just the pump is going to be over $500, then the cart, sheave, guard

A plumbed belt drive pump is 800 on its own
https://www.pressurewashersdirect.com/Pressure-Pro-SLPHP4040-402/p16427.html

But a whole unit with a gx390 is 1900

Pressure-Pro EB4040HG-20 Eagle II 4000 PSI Gas - Cold Water Belt-Drive Aluminum Frame Pressure Washer w/ General Pump & Honda GX390 Engine

Buy Pressure-Pro EB4040HG-20 Direct. Free Shipping. Check the Pressure-Pro Eagle II 4000 PSI (Gas - Cold Water) Belt-Drive Aluminum Frame Pressure Washer w/ General Pump & Honda GX390 Engine ratings before checking out.

www.pressurewashersdirect.com

 

[danski0224]

Probably a good idea to see what @fatfillup recommends.

I hate trying to sell stuff. I'd rather use the engine I have than deal with tire kickers.

I can already hear "it's old, I'll give you fifty bucks for it... but I only brought 40".

 

[mike93lx]

Probably a good idea to see what @fatfillup recommends.

I hate trying to sell stuff. I'd rather use the engine I have than deal with tire kickers.

I can already hear "it's old, I'll give you fifty bucks for it... but I only brought 40".

****, I'll give you a c note, but you need to deliver

I hear you. Selling stuff is a PIA

 

[danski0224]

****, I'll give you a c note, but you need to deliver

A steal at half the price...

 

[fatfillup]

The Pressure pro shown is the one we sell
Building your own would be a doable project
As to the engine, wouldn't worry one bit about the old one, it should keep on going

Make sure your pulleys are sized correctly and lined up and belts tight

 

[danski0224]

Any suggestions on parts and pump?

 

[danski0224]

@fatfillup

Well, the pump definitely had issues.

One of the rubber seals around a ceramic plunger was torn, the roller bearing on the engine side has some roughness, and there is some scoring where that bearing sits in the aluminum case.

I honestly do not know if the place I paid for an overhaul did it correctly, and if the pump has been stuck on the engine forever, they would not have been able to get it apart either.

The crankshaft is still stuck on the motor shaft, the aluminum housing was cut in half and it was still a bear to get apart. I did not want to beat on it and damage the engine crank/output shaft (bending). Have to get more blades to cut the bearings apart.

I noticed that some places are recommending coating the engine shaft with silicone caulking instead of anti seize. Will the caulking make it easier to get apart?

I still plan to make a belt drive unit.

 

[fatfillup]

Never heard of caulking an engine shaft, stick with antisieze.
As to rebuilding the pump, normally you just address the water end and not the crankcase end.. only pull the brass head off the pump.
If there is a bearing issue, time for a new pump in my shop

 

[danski0224]

What needs to be done to make the pressure output "adjustable"?

 

[Firebrick43]

@fatfillup

Well, the pump definitely had issues.

One of the rubber seals around a ceramic plunger was torn, the roller bearing on the engine side has some roughness, and there is some scoring where that bearing sits in the aluminum case.

I honestly do not know if the place I paid for an overhaul did it correctly, and if the pump has been stuck on the engine forever, they would not have been able to get it apart either.

The crankshaft is still stuck on the motor shaft, the aluminum housing was cut in half and it was still a bear to get apart. I did not want to beat on it and damage the engine crank/output shaft (bending). Have to get more blades to cut the bearings apart.

I noticed that some places are recommending coating the engine shaft with silicone caulking instead of anti seize. Will the caulking make it easier to get apart?

I still plan to make a belt drive unit.

Most silicone sealants use acetic acid as a curing agent and cause corrosion on bare metal over time.

Electrical grade silicone sealant does not but is expensive.


maybe they are using silicone dielectric grease?

Use anti seize.

Also, why not leave it direct drive but put a love joy coupler in between the pump and engine? That is what we always did with high pressure coolant pumps that were usually just pressure washer pumps. Made them easy to change and they didn’t side load bearings like belt drives did.

 

[danski0224]

maybe they are using silicone dielectric grease?

The instructions showed plain old silicone caulking, from a site linked above.

I wouldn't do that anyway. Doesn't make sense.

 

[mike93lx]

Most silicone sealants use acetic acid as a curing agent and cause corrosion on bare metal over time.

Electrical grade silicone sealant does not but is expensive.


maybe they are using silicone dielectric grease?

Use anti seize.

Also, why not leave it direct drive but put a love joy coupler in between the pump and engine? That is what we always did with high pressure coolant pumps that were usually just pressure washer pumps. Made them easy to change and they didn’t side load bearings like belt drives did.

Belt drive runs the pump at half speed, increasing it's life. My understanding is that is the major driver

 

[danski0224]

The pump crank had to be cut off of the engine shaft, and even with a a piece cut out of the pump crankshaft, I had to use a 3 jaw puller to get it off of the engine.

 

[Jswain]

I love how determined you are to fix & repurpose what you currently have! Make sure you put an inlet filter on the new pump & keep it clean, the valves will be happier.

ZMFIL Inline Water Filter - 5.8 gpm 145 psi - 1/2 in Inlet x 1/2 in Outlet | General Pump

www.pressure-washer-parts.com

The last company I worked for used all cat pumps, belt drive with electric motors on a wall mount. They really had 9 lives

 

[Jswain]

What needs to be done to make the pressure output "adjustable"?

P.A. Pulsar Rv: 4050 psi @ 10 US gpm Unloader Valve w/ Knob

Canpump offers commercial pressure washers, pumps, misting and soft wash systems, plus accessories and spare parts for professional cleaning solutions.

www.canpump.com

Install an unloader bypass valve. It's nice to have a gauge in there too so you know what pressure it's set at. If you have a habit of leaving the pressure washer running while not using it consider using a weeping wand, it will always let a low pressure stream flow keeping the pump cool.

 

[danski0224]

I love how determined you are to fix & repurpose what you currently have! Make sure you put an inlet filter on the new pump & keep it clean, the valves will be happier.

The old one had an inlet filter.

It was old, I bought it used, paid to have it repaired at a reasonably well known pressure washer shop relatively near.

It was a while ago. Like many things in life, it is not possible to know just how much was replaced, even in just the head. At that time in my life, I wouldn't have even thought that the job may not have been done right. There wasn't a lick of anti seize on the engine shaft, so if it was like that before I bought it, the shop probably would not have been able to remove the pump either.

Just strictly based upon usage, I didn't put many hours on it, but there was a lot of years. In hindsight, I should have rebuilt it every couple/few years... but I do not know how quickly the seals around the plungers deteriorate, even flushing it out with "pump saver". It was painfully obvious that the rubber seal around the center plunger was bad, and was probably bad for a while. I am surprised that the pump was working at all the last time I used it, after seeing the damage.

ZMFIL Inline Water Filter - 5.8 gpm 145 psi - 1/2 in Inlet x 1/2 in Outlet | General Pump

www.pressure-washer-parts.com

The last company I worked for used all cat pumps, belt drive with electric motors on a wall mount. They really had 9 lives

I don't want to spend the coin on a new one out of the box, but if I put a value on the time I have spent dicking around with the old one, maybe it would be a wash. If I knew then, I would have just cut the damn thing off to start with.

At first glance it seems that I should be able to put one together for much less than a turn key solution, but it seems that the places that sell parts, don't offer advice. They just want to sell the parts that you "add to cart" or a whole shiny new one.

People on this website ***** about HVAC parts, but the pressure washer stuff seems no different. A bunch of outfits putting together parts distributed by "Pressure Pro" and crickets when an inquiry email is sent. I may resort to calling Pressure Pro directly and see if they will talk to me.

The belt drive stuff adds up fast, but after this experience, I really do not want a direct mount pump.

The direct mount replacement is obviously the easiest solution, and that's what might happen. I can't justify the $$$ for a new belt drive washer that's already assembled.

 

[danski0224]

P.A. Pulsar Rv: 4050 psi @ 10 US gpm Unloader Valve w/ Knob

Canpump offers commercial pressure washers, pumps, misting and soft wash systems, plus accessories and spare parts for professional cleaning solutions.

www.canpump.com

Install an unloader bypass valve. It's nice to have a gauge in there too so you know what pressure it's set at. If you have a habit of leaving the pressure washer running while not using it consider using a weeping wand, it will always let a low pressure stream flow keeping the pump cool.

I had always turned mine off if I wasn't spraying for more than 10 seconds or so. It started easily.

From what I have seen so far, the proper way to adjust the pressure output is by using tips with larger orifices. I did buy a couple of different ones earlier this year, but have not tried them... and now the washer is inop.

Most of the time I used a dual lance to back off the pressure, even without soap. I was just going to get into trying out different orifice tips.

 

[Jswain]

I had always turned mine off if I wasn't spraying for more than 10 seconds or so. It started easily.

From what I have seen so far, the proper way to adjust the pressure output is by using tips with larger orifices. I did buy a couple of different ones earlier this year, but have not tried them... and now the washer is inop.

When you buy tips, search for a chart because there is many different orifice sizes depending on the GPM of your pump.

We used just a screw on tip & adjusted the regulator on the unloader. Can get anything from a light spray to full pressure. Those pumps would sometimes see 20hr/day use, left running all the time, abused, and last us a very long time if you kept the inlet screen clean, change the oil every now and then & drip some oil on the wicks.

For a homeowner who even half assed takes care of his stuff I couldn't imagine it NOT lasting a lifetime, maybe with a valve replacement someday.

 

[danski0224]

When you buy tips, search for a chart because there is many different orifice sizes depending on the GPM of your pump.

Yeah, I found one of those charts.

I bought a fancy unloader that is supposed to diminish the kick when the trigger is pulled, it doesn't have a knob on it. Obviously didn't get around to installing it.

 

[fatfillup]

Nozzles with larger orifices will reduce pressure. Also, you can slow the motor down and reduce pressure and volume. Not a fan of using the unloader to adjust pressure, they tend to get over adjusted and cause too high of spike pressure to make the machine go into bypass.
The primary purpose of the unloader is to set the spike pressure of the unloader. That is the pressure needed to trip the unloader into bypass. It should be 400 ish PSI over working pressure. 3000 psi, spike at 3400 psi. WInd the unloader down and the same machine will put out 3000 psi and spike at 4000 psi or more. Harder on pump, unloader, hoses guns.

 

[86turbodsl]

Can you cut the old pump off the engine shaft? With an angle grinder and wheel?

 

[fatfillup]

Believe the OP had a Cat direct drive pump and they can be quite hateful to remove. Far worse than any other brand.
We typically drive wedges between the pump and motor and spray Free All on the shaft if we can. Often let sit overnight with wedge tension and sprayed well. Next day, drive the wedges in harder and see if it moves

 

[danski0224]

Can you cut the old pump off the engine shaft? With an angle grinder and wheel?

Too close to the vented gas tank and really too close to use a grinder at all.

Cut it off with a Milwaukee oscillating tool (and non-Fuel at that) with a carbide tooth blade (only 3 of those) and bandsaw to cut the crank off to expose the engine shaft.

STILL took a 3 jaw puller to get the rest of it off.

 

[danski0224]

Believe the OP had a Cat direct drive pump and they can be quite hateful to remove.

Yes. And yes it was.

Far worse than any other brand.
We typically drive wedges between the pump and motor and spray Free All on the shaft if we can. Often let sit overnight with wedge tension and sprayed well. Next day, drive the wedges in harder and see if it moves

I tried steel wedges and the 8mm bolt holes to push it off (with metal spacers for the bolts to push onto), and it wouldn't budge more than the first 3/16 of an inch that it moved.

I fucked with it for hours, over several afternoons, to try and get it apart.

Tried PBlaster, Kroil, beating it with a soft face dead blow hammer under tension... nothing.

Then I threw in the towel and just cut it off, which took another couple of hours.

At least the engine runs fine.

 

[danski0224]

I just ordered all of the parts except for the belt, that has to wait until assembly for a measurement.

 

[mike93lx]

Would love to see pictures on how you handle the mounting and setup

 

[danski0224]

One key part is cart part number KCA060-V2 distributed by Pressure Pro.

I had to call them and ask about belt tensioning, and was told that the engine moves to adjust belt tension, and that the cart includes the parts.

Just based on description, the KCA060 does not have this, but is advertised as a V belt cart. No obvious pieces in the exploded parts diagram.

There is a wide range of selling prices online.

If it doesn't work, I'll have to figure something out.

It seems that everyone that is selling pressure washer carts separately, sells the Pressure Pro models.

One place had a bunch of different Karcher carts, but very few pictures. I am assuming that Karcher is an OEM for many brands. One picture showed a sliding platform for a belt drive system, but it was too expensive to make a mistake.

 

[danski0224]

So it seems that a secret ingredient is the belt tensioning bracket and associated hardware.

I was told that the cart I purchased came with said hardware and (spoiler alert)... it doesn't.

Plenty of online images for Pressure Pro belt drive pressure washers show a bolt through the side of the cart under the engine, but no other details.

And of course, places that sell assembled pressure washers don't have a parts list for what they are selling- even for repair. Plenty of videos showing tensioning setups too.

There is nothing shown on the exploded view for a KCA060 cart for belt tensioning.

I sent an email to Pressure Pro, and hopefully there will be a solution.

I found one place selling "conversion kits" for belt drive setups, and they have a tensioning bracket, and I may have to resort to getting it. A sliding electric motor base is another option, but that will mess up the height of the belt guide holes... They are not making it "easy"

 

[cnc-me]

Here's one I built up a while back. It's got one of those "Mighty M" style pumps on it.
3200 PSI. I think I only have around $400 into this thing with mostly new, and some used parts.
People on You-Tube say these pumps are commercial quality. I only have about 30 Hrs on it but works great so far.
That pump really makes the ole Predator 6.5 snort when you have it turned all the way up.

 

[danski0224]

Here's one I built up a while back.

Well, just bolting a new pump to the engine would have been a much easier path to pick.

But there is a pretty significant premium on a$$embled belt drive pressure washers that are just ordered from a website.

I haven't had much difficulty getting the major parts, nor did I have much difficulty picking the pulleys and bushings.

But that belt tensioner (at least something that is already made) sure seems to be the secret ingredient that no one wants to sell- unless it is attached to a ready-a$$embled setup... or to actually include in a cart kit that is supposed to include it.

And Pressure Pro has not yet responded to email or phone message.

 

[danski0224]

Finally got somewhere.

The belt tensioning hardware is indeed part of the secret sauce.

The cart that everyone sells as a bare belt drive pressure washer cart does not come with the necessary hardware to tension the belts. I mean, it comes with the guard, and it is advertised as designed for a Honda GX390 engine... but nope, no hardware for you.

The people that sell assembled pressure washers are getting their carts from Pressure Pro, but they are not the same as the "universal" one that is available online from at least 4 locations.

I did find one place selling a bracket, Dyne Power Packs, and it should work. It looks a lot like what I see in an exploded service diagram that I just got. The Dyne Power Packs version does come with 2 parallel tightening bolts, not one as shown on their website.

Actually getting my hands on some of these "service parts" from Pressure Pro will be the next hurdle. They definitely make it difficult.

 

[MileHighRover]

@danski0224 whatever came of this?