i finally got the concrete finished for my 24x30 garage. i purchased a garage "kit" from menards. the slab was poured with an 1/8 slope per foot towards the door for drainage. the thought never crossed my mind until my brother asked do we build the garage square to the slab or buid the walls with varying stud lengths to make the top plate level? is there any reason it would be bad to just build it square to the slab?
build garage square or level?
- Thread starter sluginxlt
- Start date
TractorJeff
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
It will tilt, You need to learn what a Plumb Bob is. Probably now the have some sort of Laser. But in the old days, you built it level and square.
It will tilt, You need to learn what a Plumb Bob is. Probably now the have some sort of Laser. But in the old days, you built it level and square.
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
plumb and level. the extra little bit over the span of a wall can be accounted for easily. having a little extra work at the start is way better than having walls that aren't level when it comes time to put a roof on it.
plumb and level. the extra little bit over the span of a wall can be accounted for easily. having a little extra work at the start is way better than having walls that aren't level when it comes time to put a roof on it.
matt_i
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
24ft x 1/8" per foot is 3" difference in wall-height one side to the other.
Easy is to just make it equal-height all around. Then the sheeting and siding go on easily without having to taper-cut everything. The taper is enough to consume nearly a full "pitch" of a 4/4 vinyl siding, so that has to be worked around, it could be a 1-1/2" "step" that's done halfway across the width, just like you'd do with sloping ground. Or, the base course could simply go deeper onto the concrete on one side, this could present some attachment issues at the base course in certain spots where the wood is too high and the concrete edge is too thin to hold a fastener.
This brings up one design advantage of having stem walls above the slab. Those can be leveled to a plane, then the slab can be poured with whatever shape or slope or taper one can dream up. Also, the laser or a regular bubble level can be trusted anywhere without having to think about the "fudge" factor built in.
I think if the building is freestanding, it will probably be within reason to build parallel to the slab, but its not what I would personally do. If its close to or connected to another structure(s), it will be noticeable forevermore.
24ft x 1/8" per foot is 3" difference in wall-height one side to the other.
Easy is to just make it equal-height all around. Then the sheeting and siding go on easily without having to taper-cut everything. The taper is enough to consume nearly a full "pitch" of a 4/4 vinyl siding, so that has to be worked around, it could be a 1-1/2" "step" that's done halfway across the width, just like you'd do with sloping ground. Or, the base course could simply go deeper onto the concrete on one side, this could present some attachment issues at the base course in certain spots where the wood is too high and the concrete edge is too thin to hold a fastener.
This brings up one design advantage of having stem walls above the slab. Those can be leveled to a plane, then the slab can be poured with whatever shape or slope or taper one can dream up. Also, the laser or a regular bubble level can be trusted anywhere without having to think about the "fudge" factor built in.
I think if the building is freestanding, it will probably be within reason to build parallel to the slab, but its not what I would personally do. If its close to or connected to another structure(s), it will be noticeable forevermore.
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
You're going to need to trim each stud. DO NOT build the structure square to the slab or you're in for a total disaster. Build it plumb and level. I would highly suggest you get a grading level and shoot the slab and confirm your elevations. You'll need to identify your low point. That will become the datum for your wall height. Then trim down from there as you build up slope. It you do it the other way around you'll be scabbing on lumber left and right and it'll turn into a major problem.
I got to say something as I read your other thread. While I can appreciate the gumption to do this yourself, you have no business doing it yourself. Whoever has been providing you guidance with elevations and just general knowledge has no business doing so. Your concrete buddy didn't do you any favors by pouring a pitched slab as a building foundation.
Good luck, maybe find a framer that'll come help you get the walls built and stood.
You're going to need to trim each stud. DO NOT build the structure square to the slab or you're in for a total disaster. Build it plumb and level. I would highly suggest you get a grading level and shoot the slab and confirm your elevations. You'll need to identify your low point. That will become the datum for your wall height. Then trim down from there as you build up slope. It you do it the other way around you'll be scabbing on lumber left and right and it'll turn into a major problem.
I got to say something as I read your other thread. While I can appreciate the gumption to do this yourself, you have no business doing it yourself. Whoever has been providing you guidance with elevations and just general knowledge has no business doing so. Your concrete buddy didn't do you any favors by pouring a pitched slab as a building foundation.
Good luck, maybe find a framer that'll come help you get the walls built and stood.
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EdT
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
It's not too hard to make the studs the right length to allow the top plate to be level. If you actually have 1/8" per foot then you're looking at 3" over the 24' depth of the building which is a lot to be out of square and level. The first thing I would do is figure out if that is how much slope you actually have. Its pretty likely that the concrete guys did not measure things too accurately and gave you "some" slope toward the doors and it may be different side to side. So, I'd check them both. lay out the wall on the floor and get the top plate and studs fastened together and square at least at the ends. Use a chalk line to strike a line across the what will be the lower ends of the studs. The one on the end where the doors go will be full length the one at the other end will be around 3" shorter and the ones in between will be progressively shorter front to back. That's a way. There are other ways I'm sure and someone with more experience will have a better/faster way. In any case you should build the wall with the studs vertical and the wall square at the top. The studs cannot be square at the bottom plate since the floor is slanted. This will also be interesting if you decide to put sheet rock or something on the walls.
It's not too hard to make the studs the right length to allow the top plate to be level. If you actually have 1/8" per foot then you're looking at 3" over the 24' depth of the building which is a lot to be out of square and level. The first thing I would do is figure out if that is how much slope you actually have. Its pretty likely that the concrete guys did not measure things too accurately and gave you "some" slope toward the doors and it may be different side to side. So, I'd check them both. lay out the wall on the floor and get the top plate and studs fastened together and square at least at the ends. Use a chalk line to strike a line across the what will be the lower ends of the studs. The one on the end where the doors go will be full length the one at the other end will be around 3" shorter and the ones in between will be progressively shorter front to back. That's a way. There are other ways I'm sure and someone with more experience will have a better/faster way. In any case you should build the wall with the studs vertical and the wall square at the top. The studs cannot be square at the bottom plate since the floor is slanted. This will also be interesting if you decide to put sheet rock or something on the walls.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Every garage I have ever owned had a concrete stem wall that was level that the walls attached to, with the sloped poured inside of that.
That can be done even with a monolithic pour.
At this point... custom cut studs?
or
Using all pressure treated wood...
Every garage I have ever owned had a concrete stem wall that was level that the walls attached to, with the sloped poured inside of that.
That can be done even with a monolithic pour.
At this point... custom cut studs?
or
Using all pressure treated wood...
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Alchymist
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Bingo, no reason the edges of the pad aren't level, with the slope starting about a foot inside the perimeter and sloping toward the doors. Need a step down where the doors go, so it's a little more work for the concrete crew, which is probably why you wound up with a sloping pad.
Bingo, no reason the edges of the pad aren't level, with the slope starting about a foot inside the perimeter and sloping toward the doors. Need a step down where the doors go, so it's a little more work for the concrete crew, which is probably why you wound up with a sloping pad.
pmiranda
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
I'd trim the studs as you work toward the high end so that they can be plumb and the top plate level. Otherwise, think how well things worked out for the leaning tower of Piza
I'd trim the studs as you work toward the high end so that they can be plumb and the top plate level. Otherwise, think how well things worked out for the leaning tower of Piza
Coldstream
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Re: build garage sqaure or level?
How about this. Lay your wall bottom plates down and make them level. Use wedges or shims. Obviously one end will be resting on the pad and theother end will be a few inches up off of the pad. If your bottom plates are level your building will go up straight and square. Then get some grout or concrete and fill in under the bottom plate. Grout will effectively fill the geap and support the load, it's used in industry to support all kinds of heavy equipment. Course, thinking this through some more, a gap of several inches may require some sort of forming to hold it in while it sets. Might work. Or maybe it's a crazy idea
How about this. Lay your wall bottom plates down and make them level. Use wedges or shims. Obviously one end will be resting on the pad and theother end will be a few inches up off of the pad. If your bottom plates are level your building will go up straight and square. Then get some grout or concrete and fill in under the bottom plate. Grout will effectively fill the geap and support the load, it's used in industry to support all kinds of heavy equipment. Course, thinking this through some more, a gap of several inches may require some sort of forming to hold it in while it sets. Might work. Or maybe it's a crazy idea
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Sorry but NO
How about this. Lay your wall bottom plates down and make them level. Use wedges or shims. Obviously one end will be resting on the pad and theother end will be a few inches up off of the pad. If your bottom plates are level your building will go up straight and square. Then get some grout or concrete and fill in under the bottom plate. Grout will effectively fill the geap and support the load, it's used in industry to support all kinds of heavy equipment. Course, thinking this through some more, a gap of several inches may require some sort of forming to hold it in while it sets. Might work. Or maybe it's a crazy idea
Sorry but NO
Coldstream
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Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Oh OK. If you say so. Nice input.
Oh OK. If you say so. Nice input.
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Sorry bud, not trying to be overly rude but this guy will listen to ideas that are unsound if he feels he can take a shortcut because he doesn't know any better. That is blatantly obvious from his thread about his footer issue and this one. He has one chance to do this correctly, myself and a couple others the correct advice. There's more then a few of us here that have spent a lifetime constructing for a living.
Sorry bud, not trying to be overly rude but this guy will listen to ideas that are unsound if he feels he can take a shortcut because he doesn't know any better. That is blatantly obvious from his thread about his footer issue and this one. He has one chance to do this correctly, myself and a couple others the correct advice. There's more then a few of us here that have spent a lifetime constructing for a living.
pmiranda
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
First off, I'd move a nice, straight piece of lumber on edge around the perimeter of the pad to see if it's a nice, even slope. If so it should be easy to size the studs for any sill plate by laying a straightedge across them. If it's not an even slope and that straight lumber has gaps of >1/8" under it, then it would be better to scribe the slab onto a level piece of lumber and transfer that to the studs as you build each section.
Makes sense?
First off, I'd move a nice, straight piece of lumber on edge around the perimeter of the pad to see if it's a nice, even slope. If so it should be easy to size the studs for any sill plate by laying a straightedge across them. If it's not an even slope and that straight lumber has gaps of >1/8" under it, then it would be better to scribe the slab onto a level piece of lumber and transfer that to the studs as you build each section.
Makes sense?
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Cut all your studs so your top plate is level. Have all your sheathing over hang the slab a few inches at one end and even with it at the other. This won't be noticeable over 24-30 feet.
Other solution is to pour a lip on the slab with a level top.
Cut all your studs so your top plate is level. Have all your sheathing over hang the slab a few inches at one end and even with it at the other. This won't be noticeable over 24-30 feet.
Other solution is to pour a lip on the slab with a level top.
Coldstream
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Re: build garage sqaure or level?
LXCam: I understand and thanks for the explanation. Learning from experts like you is why I'm here. Planning to start my garage project in the spring.
LXCam: I understand and thanks for the explanation. Learning from experts like you is why I'm here. Planning to start my garage project in the spring.
Daniel Dudley
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Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Lay your PT plates. Get a laser level, and set it up so the beam hits the high end of the plate. Measure to the beam and you will get a good idea what you need to subtract on each stud. If you get this right, all you have to do is plumb the walls, and you are back in business. You could pull a string, but you would still have to level it, and it will sag just a bit in the middle.
You don't know exactly how much out of level your pad is. Right now you think you know.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Fat...l-FMHT77319-/141813719597?hash=item2104c1a22d
Lay your PT plates. Get a laser level, and set it up so the beam hits the high end of the plate. Measure to the beam and you will get a good idea what you need to subtract on each stud. If you get this right, all you have to do is plumb the walls, and you are back in business. You could pull a string, but you would still have to level it, and it will sag just a bit in the middle.
You don't know exactly how much out of level your pad is. Right now you think you know.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Fat...l-FMHT77319-/141813719597?hash=item2104c1a22d
rayra
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
This is an absolutely terrible idea. Then the entire building load is on your shims. Ridiculous. And will fail an inspection. Half the point of the bottom sill is to spread the load, not focus it on a few shims.
OP it isn't rocket science. Measure your ACTUAL slope. Use a string and string level. Use your full stud length / height at your lowest corner. Then work your way back measuring your height differential compared to your front / low corner. It's easy to transfer, especially if you lay your studs out across the slab with thend alongside the string. Measure and transfer the measurement to the boards right on the spot. Clear your string, use a scrap piece to elevate your2x4s in place and trim them. 16" centers is 19 studs on a 24' wall. It's a tiny amount of work. Once trimmed, build your wall on the slab like usual and tilt it up and check level.
And never listen to the person or contractor that 'designed' your tilted slab about anything else again.
How about this. Lay your wall bottom plates down and make them level. Use wedges or shims. Obviously one end will be resting on the pad and theother end will be a few inches up off of the pad. If your bottom plates are level your building will go up straight and square. Then get some grout or concrete and fill in under the bottom plate. Grout will effectively fill the geap and support the load, it's used in industry to support all kinds of heavy equipment. Course, thinking this through some more, a gap of several inches may require some sort of forming to hold it in while it sets. Might work. Or maybe it's a crazy idea
This is an absolutely terrible idea. Then the entire building load is on your shims. Ridiculous. And will fail an inspection. Half the point of the bottom sill is to spread the load, not focus it on a few shims.
OP it isn't rocket science. Measure your ACTUAL slope. Use a string and string level. Use your full stud length / height at your lowest corner. Then work your way back measuring your height differential compared to your front / low corner. It's easy to transfer, especially if you lay your studs out across the slab with thend alongside the string. Measure and transfer the measurement to the boards right on the spot. Clear your string, use a scrap piece to elevate your2x4s in place and trim them. 16" centers is 19 studs on a 24' wall. It's a tiny amount of work. Once trimmed, build your wall on the slab like usual and tilt it up and check level.
And never listen to the person or contractor that 'designed' your tilted slab about anything else again.
OccupantRJ
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
My son is dealing with this in enclosing his carport. I had him lay out a level line and cut concrete blocks on a taper. This brought the top of the blocks to a level plane to build upon properly. It also gets the sole plate and wall off the ground for further moisture protection. Use a pressure treated sole plate with a foam seal underneath it.
My son is dealing with this in enclosing his carport. I had him lay out a level line and cut concrete blocks on a taper. This brought the top of the blocks to a level plane to build upon properly. It also gets the sole plate and wall off the ground for further moisture protection. Use a pressure treated sole plate with a foam seal underneath it.
I'd be pouring a stem wall or laying a few courses of block to level that slab out.
SunnyBeach
Well-known member
The only advice I can give is to hang in there and get it done.
Get this wall building project behind you, get it dried in, and then you can spend the colder months "in" your garage instead of looking at a pad under the snow.
Get this wall building project behind you, get it dried in, and then you can spend the colder months "in" your garage instead of looking at a pad under the snow.
a friend of mine assisted me and my brothers with the concrete. he admitted that he never really did garages, his union crew always did parking lots and driveways so i cant put the blame on him. i guess you get what you pay for. now i just need to figure out how to get things "right"
AndyCBR
Well-known member
Too late now but just frame it level and make the cuts as needed.
Use an independent source to level the top plate (sight level, water level, laser, etc.) and go from there. Yes every stud will have to be cut and then the sheathing tapered but you may be able to level out the exterior siding/finish with a variable overhang at the slab. This would make the reveal at ground level more pleasing to the eye.
Making many cuts is time consuming but it's not like we don't have circular saws and are doing it by hand.
A monolithic, level stem wall no matter how short is the preferred building method to get a sloped floor but it's too late for that now.
Use an independent source to level the top plate (sight level, water level, laser, etc.) and go from there. Yes every stud will have to be cut and then the sheathing tapered but you may be able to level out the exterior siding/finish with a variable overhang at the slab. This would make the reveal at ground level more pleasing to the eye.
Making many cuts is time consuming but it's not like we don't have circular saws and are doing it by hand.
A monolithic, level stem wall no matter how short is the preferred building method to get a sloped floor but it's too late for that now.
Me too.....
Slowgsr
Well-known member
My pole barn tilts to the left side and the front, whoever built it didn't have a level and too many beers. But it's sound. You can't notice from looking at it.
That being said, I'd build it level. I'd set my wall heights with a transit. Depends on your tools and experience.
That being said, I'd build it level. I'd set my wall heights with a transit. Depends on your tools and experience.
i was slightly thinking about blocks as i wouldnt mind the added height anyways. so the whole layer of bottom bricks would have to be cut to get back level. i really know nothing about bricks, im assuming the concrete would have to be drilled to put some rebar going into the blocks?
Like a few other mentioned, you need to see how far out of level you are first.
pmiranda
Well-known member
A stem wall has the added benefit of higher sidewalls with shorter length studs, besides being naturally more resistant to water inside and outside the structure. But if it were me DIY... I wouldn't want to build a stem wall. Much less skill needed to frame a decent wall.
bczygan
Well-known member
STOP
IGNORE ALL suggestions concerning how to do the adjustment in wood.
The only correct way to do this is to run a course of block and cut them to make up for the improperly poured slab.
Also drill the slab and epoxy in anchor bolts at 4'o.c., then grout the block cores solid. Install foam sill seal on top, drill your treated 2x6 sill plate for the anchor bolts and install. Then caulk the seam inside and out.
I would be asking the concrete guys to cover the cost too.
Bill
IGNORE ALL suggestions concerning how to do the adjustment in wood.
The only correct way to do this is to run a course of block and cut them to make up for the improperly poured slab.
Also drill the slab and epoxy in anchor bolts at 4'o.c., then grout the block cores solid. Install foam sill seal on top, drill your treated 2x6 sill plate for the anchor bolts and install. Then caulk the seam inside and out.
I would be asking the concrete guys to cover the cost too.
Bill
pmiranda
Well-known member
Why is that?
FordTruckWench
Well-known member
OK - this explains why there are anchor bolts in the corners. (You won't be able to use these bolts because the corner framing will almost certainly block access to the bolts.) You needed two anchor bolts at each corner - one to each side of the corner so that each wall has an anchor.
Also, the slab is too close to the ground to overlap the sides with wooden siding. This is why it is suggested to build a masonry stem wall.
matt_i
Well-known member
Relative to the 1 course block wall, I'd want a vertical rebar pin that's epoxied into the concrete. Then saw or chip the web of each block on the top to drop a "beltline" perimeter of rebar into the same feature. If its done on the centerline of an 8" wide block then you should not have a conflict setting J-bolts into the wet concrete filler for 3-1/2" wide framing material. In other words the beltline will be 4" in from the outside edge, J- bolt would be at 1-3/4" from the outside edge.
The block wall will take longer of course, but as mentioned a couple times, make a longer lasting structure.
The rental places around here have laser levels to rent. Not sure of their cost, but they are available without investing in one. In my personal opinion, the best tool for a "survey" of what you have there.
The block wall will take longer of course, but as mentioned a couple times, make a longer lasting structure.
The rental places around here have laser levels to rent. Not sure of their cost, but they are available without investing in one. In my personal opinion, the best tool for a "survey" of what you have there.
Rex_A_Lott
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
Good Suggestion. Fixes your problem, plus gets you a 10 ft ceiling. I have a friend that built his this way on purpose and he says its the best thing he ever did. Good Luck!
DPG
Well-known member
Re: build garage sqaure or level?
As others have pointed out, it would be a total disaster to build it out of plumb and level. From your picture, it appears that the grade between the fences in the back corner slope toward your slab. Ideally, you want the grade to slope from your garage away at 1/4" pr ft and leave at least 6" of exposed concrete between the finish grade and the bottom of your siding. So as others have mentioned, you need to either pour a stem wall all the way around or hire a mason to place a row or two of CMU (cinder block) all the way around - level. Either way, it's going to cost you a few bucks to make this right. Also, most likely your local building dept will nail you on the possible grade issue if you do nothing.
here is my future garage
As others have pointed out, it would be a total disaster to build it out of plumb and level. From your picture, it appears that the grade between the fences in the back corner slope toward your slab. Ideally, you want the grade to slope from your garage away at 1/4" pr ft and leave at least 6" of exposed concrete between the finish grade and the bottom of your siding. So as others have mentioned, you need to either pour a stem wall all the way around or hire a mason to place a row or two of CMU (cinder block) all the way around - level. Either way, it's going to cost you a few bucks to make this right. Also, most likely your local building dept will nail you on the possible grade issue if you do nothing.
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lakeroadster
Well-known member
Looks like the doggies like it!
At this point I am curious how the foundation was done?
There is a foundation, or it's a monolithic poured foundation....and that's just not concrete poured on top of dirt, right?
Also, what part of the country are you located in?
_____
John
At this point I am curious how the foundation was done?
There is a foundation, or it's a monolithic poured foundation....and that's just not concrete poured on top of dirt, right?
Also, what part of the country are you located in?
_____
John
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Looks like the doggies like it!
At this point I am curious how the foundation was done?
There is a foundation, or it's a monolithic poured foundation....and that's just not concrete poured on top of dirt, right?
_____
John
Here's a link to the other thread that was referenced where he asked for assistance.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307227