Builder screwed up, what now?

[Binrat]

JohnnieMo raised his two car garage two feet, surely your builder can do this ?

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283853

 

[NUTTSGT]

You are all a wealth of knowledge, thank you. I've let the builder know it's up to them to make it right, fix it or provide enough money for me to have it done by qualified contractors. The building contractor told me they are not qualified to raise the building, and they don't do concrete.

I'm so jealous of you who live in communities that allow 12' and greater walls, we can only do 9' from grade. That means 4" max from where it is now.

Cement, foundation and block are a different contractor. It's a 42 x 12 foundation, with CMU above that. With a 13" slope from side to side, the foundation top is below grade on the high side and above on the low. Pad will come nearly to the top of the lower block if it's sloped to the driveway and be 1-2" above grade at the garage door. That seems like the minimum above grade to avoid water.

We decided having a full 6' 8" attic was more important than a lift, especially for the truck. I don't think I'll be raising the roof in 1-2 years, maybe asking about how to redo the truss bottom chord [emoji3], outside height is the maximum we can do already, unless it's attached to the house. Hmmmm…

Putting in a shorter header also means less room for garage door springs. There are rear spring mounts and low headroom tracks adding more costs to deal with the screwup.

For those who think I can't read a blueprint attached is the gable end drawing from the permit package. Feel free to ask if a poster is sure that's what the drawing or contract says, but don't assume a lack of posted proof means anything. I also asked for the upper level to extend a foot over the lower, they built a roof overhang. Looking at the drawings, they built what they drew, my bad. This is a forum not a court. I'm not here to argue if there is legal recourse, trying to see if there are good ideas to solve this, and discover unintended consequences of the available options. So many have brought up things I would not have thought of. Thank-you!

As I'm reading this, I get a slight bit confused.

Is you peak of the building at the highest it can be per code or can you raise the building to gain the appropriate wall/door height ?

If you can raise the entire building and add another course or so of block, I'd make one suggestion if it were mine. If it's not done yet, I can't really tell from the pictures, I'd pour the floor. Once the floor is poured you have a static place to take measurements from for the height of the raise.

If you go ahead with the raise and then pour the floor, I'd hate to see your contractor come back with an "aw ****" and tell you the building still isn't high enough after it is set back down.

 

[chaosracing]

As I'm reading this, I get a slight bit confused.

Is you peak of the building at the highest it can be per code or can you raise the building to gain the appropriate wall/door height ?

If you can raise the entire building and add another course or so of block, I'd make one suggestion if it were mine. If it's not done yet, I can't really tell from the pictures, I'd pour the floor. Once the floor is poured you have a static place to take measurements from for the height of the raise.

If you go ahead with the raise and then pour the floor, I'd hate to see your contractor come back with an "aw ****" and tell you the building still isn't high enough after it is set back down.

+1 for this

 

[joes169]

@joes169 your right, starting the concrete at 8" down at the OH door sloping to 4-5 at the man door allows a 7' 6" OH door. Some regrading on the driveway would allow water to flow around and down to the sidewalk and ditches. Figure I'll have to add drainage pipe on the high side to protect that foundation and direct water to the gable end.

The 6" block, its 6" square, right? Meaning the inside of the garage has 2" less block? Do you leave the door opening 2" wider as well? A picture would help. I'm sharing that with my concrete guy, good idea for him to adopt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you'd be able to have a swale cut into the high side relatively easily, to divert water around the front of the garage. Form what I can see, there's plenty of all to the natural grade that is there now. You'd need a competent excavator to do it, but I know of at least 5 excavators I work with on a regular basis that could have it cut out & regraded in les sthan 2 hours.

As for 6" block, their 5 5/8" wide, creating a 2" interior floor ledge. 7 5/8" high by 15 5/8" long (8" h x 16" l with mortar joint.) You can also find them in half height here, 3 5/8" high. Not sure about your region, but you can easily get cap block for any width here, so you wouldn't need the solid half course on top like they used.

As for opening widths, service doors are generally 2-2.5" larger than the actual door. OH doors vary on how the carpenter will finish the jambs out, generally 1.5" to 3" wider than actual door. These are things I go over with the carpenter on every job, even though I've worked with most of them long enough to know what they want.

Here's a simple picture, hopefully it helps. There's a service door on the right, the OH door on the left, and you can see the 2" floor ledge on the inside of the corner. The cores below every anchor bolt are poured full to the footing (and doweled to the footing) with grout (not concrete). The balance of the block are left hollow/empty.

 

[joes169]

Drill down into the existing CMU grouted cells, clean thoroughly (blow, brush, blow, etc, till dust free) and epoxy in hooked bars (a candy cane) or threaded rod.
Lay up the next course, including 2 horizontal bars at the top, anchor bolts and grout it all solid.
Or drill and epoxy the anchor studs AFTER the grout has cured.

Typical epoxy like Simpson SET are good for 1300 lbs minimum in tension and 1300 lbs in shear with the correct spacing and end distances.
https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/ssttoolbox/c55pts3yzn/C-A-2016_p102-121.pdf?u=noypdr
see page 111

The repair would be far stronger than the rest of the building.

I agree, that's a simple, proven repair "IF" there are grouted cells. If not, they can be poured completely to the footing when the wall is opened up.

That said, laying a course of block under an existing building is far more miserable than 90% of people here will ever understand, unless you get the garage up a foot or two higher than it needs to be. I know I wouldn't be in a hurry to do the job because the carpenters screwed up........

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

I agree, that's a simple, proven repair "IF" there are grouted cells. If not, they can be poured completely to the footing when the wall is opened up.



That said, laying a course of block under an existing building is far more miserable than 90% of people here will ever understand, unless you get the garage up a foot or two higher than it needs to be. I know I wouldn't be in a hurry to do the job because the carpenters screwed up........

I agree

If they lift the structure up a couple inches higher than the 8inches then set it back down after the new coarse of block is laid then its easy...if they raise the structure 8 inches and say jam a new course in there then that *****

Plus you cant properly lay blocks if you don't have room to work....it will be a crappy job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LXCam]

6" wide, 8" high So the 12" height math still works.

Yup, copy that.

 

[SteveL]

I had not noticed the roof shingle issue when I posted my first response and it only reinforces my first comment of "tear it down and start over." Even if you get the blocks added or dig the floor deeper to fix the door and ceiling height, your contractor needs to fix the roof or you will be calling him in a year or so to replace rotted rafters or lost shingles from a storm.

Shouldn't there also be a 2"h curb around the perimeter of the floor inside? I know that codes around here requires it but your codes may very.

I know this all ***** but best to deal with it now rather than later. Hope it all works out for you.

 

[redneckcharlie]

I had not noticed the roof shingle issue when I posted my first response and it only reinforces my first comment of "tear it down and start over." Even if you get the blocks added or dig the floor deeper to fix the door and ceiling height, your contractor needs to fix the roof or you will be calling him in a year or so to replace rotted rafters or lost shingles from a storm.

Shouldn't there also be a 2"h curb around the perimeter of the floor inside? I know that codes around here requires it but your codes may very.

I know this all ***** but best to deal with it now rather than later. Hope it all works out for you.

Please explain how the shingles being nailed from the sloped portion of the roof to the almost vertical portion will be prone to leaking.

 

[chaosracing]

Please explain how the shingles being nailed from the sloped portion of the roof to the almost vertical portion will be prone to leaking.

Will it leak there....maybe, maybe not. I have seen gambrels leak there before, but not due to nails like that. The issue is the contractor did not do an approved flashing detail there, nor did he do one at the edge.
#1 problem with nailing thru the shingle like that, aesthetics. If I was paying a small fortune for a building, I do not care if its a garage or a house or a bird house, I would want it looking as nice as possible, plus done properly.
#2 Issue with nailing thru the shingle like that, the shingles will break down faster there, I have seen it first hand.

The other problem with the edge detail is the potential for the first course to come off during a wind storm (which it will) and potentially peeling more courses off.

To the OP, I would maybe get a second opinion as to this guys work (meaning call someone out to physically look at it, ie another contractor, the building inspector, etc) and see what they say. But if your contractor can not follow simple plans and details, I wonder what else is messed up.

 

[terabitdan]

There will be a 2" or greater curb around the edges, the floor will start at 4-5" up the block at the OH door and 7-8" at the man door. That leaves a minimum curb of 4" all around. It's not a code requirement here.

We've lived here over 20 years and water has never come into the current garage, the new garage floor is at least 2" higher that the current, more like 4". So long as the pad at the man door is 2" higher than ground I don't see flooding being a problem. Unless it's a 100 year flood, then who knows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FMB4]

That roof is not to code. Not sure if your area requires build permits and building code standards structures of that size (like they do in my area). I'll also mention that it looks like they bent standard comp. shingles over the mid-roof edge along the top of the lower section (where the nails are exposed). If this is the case, then that issue will also need to be addressed.

Meanwhile, at this point you're looking at a lot of difficult re-work that may, or may not, work out in the end. Bracing and then raising that type of building (so as to add another row of foundation blocks) will likely cause damage to the roof and/or siding. Doing so could also weaken the framing. You might get away with it if the framing, etc, was screwed together rather than nailed.

 

[terabitdan]

I thought I'd give an update on how we resolved the height error.

Builder agreed to build the staircase, put in flood and walls for the garage and build us a 10x12 Shed to match. They are just about done with Friday bushing the garage.

We poured the slab 76" from the header, allowing a 7' 3" door for my truck, which fits easily.

Overall we are satisfied how it worked out, the shed will be a huge help getting the yard and garden stuff out of the garage. Having the upstairs room finished by them made up for the lost time spent agreeing to a solution, not to mention the costs of materials.





Only on major problem, it's too small!!! LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[vettex2]

Good !

 

[Fatboy148]

What was the outcome of the shingles install having no starter course and at the transition of the two pitches?

 

[RobSmith]

Just wondering....Do you have the plans and agreement in writing..a hard copy ?
If so ...Make the idiot builder pull it all down and build it right. Stuff lifting it, that will make it "wrong" for the rest of your life. Make that builder pay for his stupid mistake.

 

[lakeroadster]

Builder agreed to build the staircase, put in flood and walls for the garage and build us a 10x12 Shed to match. They are just about done with Friday bushing the garage.

Could you post some photo's of the exterior "flood walls"? Curious as to how that was done?

We poured the slab 76" from the header, allowing a 7' 3" door for my truck, which fits easily.

So did they excavate the entire interior and then re-compact the base to give you the slab thickness that you specified originally?

 

[Bluedodge]

I'm glad it worked out for you Sir - sounds like you made the best of what could have been a testy situation.

The building is prefabricated, what you see is three days work....

I will ask the obvious though. Why didn't they just unbolt and haul away the "incorrect" kit and bring you a "correct" kit?
Then they would have the standard kit to sell to the next customer.

 

[terabitdan]

Just wondering....Do you have the plans and agreement in writing..a hard copy ?
If so ...Make the idiot builder pull it all down and build it right. Stuff lifting it, that will make it "wrong" for the rest of your life. Make that builder pay for his stupid mistake.

Yes, specifications were all in writing, on the plans etc. they never disputed it was built right.

After some initial, insufficient, offers from the builder I gave them 4 options. Tear it down and rebuild it right, lift it to specifications, finish at the existing height without final payment of about 1/3, or finish (floor and walls to code) the attic, build the stairs, and build a shed.

Honestly would have accepted any of them, but the last option allowed the project to complete much faster, saved me time and materials, and added much needed storage space for garden supplies. We are satisfied with the end result.

In our case, building the garage was primarily to allow us to convert the existing attached garage into living space, that's the project I really want to get started on and finish. All the other options added months to that project timeline.

Did I mention my wife is really excited about having her shed? [emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[terabitdan]

Could you post some photo's of the exterior "flood walls"? Curious as to how that was done?

Sorry, apple autocorrect got me again. It was the attic floor and walls. The plan was to finish that work ourselves.

So did they excavate the entire interior and then re-compact the base to give you the slab thickness that you specified originally?

Yes. We used different contractors for concrete and building. The concrete guy excavated 6" below the top of footing, filled with 4"+ compacted base, poly vapor barrier then 2" of foamular 250 insulation and wire mesh. They poured 4-6" of concrete, 4" at the door sloped up about 3" to the man door. From the man door back is flat. No additional cost from the concrete guy, that was all in his bid.

After the first row of block was laid the concrete guy and I measured the ground height all around and realized another 1/2 height row would be better, in fact, if the 1/2 block wasn't already on the way I would have added a full block. That 4" row of block saved the project, without it, the builder would have had to rip and replace or lift the building.

 

[terabitdan]

I'm glad it worked out for you Sir - sounds like you made the best of what could have been a testy situation.





I will ask the obvious though. Why didn't they just unbolt and haul away the "incorrect" kit and bring you a "correct" kit?

Then they would have the standard kit to sell to the next customer.

That's a great question, after talking with the repair team they don't build many gambrel style garages. I know they crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion the attic floor, stairs and shed were cheaper than my other kind offers to resolve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Erampu]

Y'know, all you really had to do was chop and channel the truck...

Glad it all worked out for you.

 

[ctgoodman]

on raising the building. Make the contractor hire a mover to raise it then add a couple of courses of block. Also make sure the foundation anchors are to code after the lift.

'bout the only other proper fix would be to tear it down & rebuild.

Yes even if it means tearing out the existing block wall and rebuilding to a proper height.

 

[brownbagg]

sound like you are being cheap and just want money, what you need to do is tell the builder to fix it, it will be his cost

 

[ard]

What was the outcome of the shingles install having no starter course and at the transition of the two pitches?

Just ignore it?

 

[glider]

To the original poster. I think you did ok and probably healthier to put it behind you. Building looks nice.

 

[pepi]

To the original poster. I think you did ok and probably healthier to put it behind you. Building looks nice.

That's easy for you to say, and maybe you're good with halfass. But there are actually folks and I'm one, that expect to get what they pay for. BTW that is not an unreasonable attitude to have.

"Building looks nice" what good is that? I see a lot of nice looking hookers but wouldn't want to marry one.

Greg

 

[glider]

That's easy for you to say, and maybe you're good with halfass. But there are actually folks and I'm one, that expect to get what they pay for. BTW that is not an unreasonable attitude to have.

"Building looks nice" what good is that? I see a lot of nice looking hookers but wouldn't want to marry one.

Greg

Lol, the builder was working with him and they come to a agreement. Glad they could work it out. I built hundreds of sheds and had a few situations. Worked all of them out. Yes the op could of pushed it if he felt that was the reasonable thing to do.

 

[terabitdan]

Just ignore it?

Forgot to respond to this one. There is a starter course of roll roofing like ice shield, but it does not come down to completely cover the drip edge trim.

I climbed up on the ladder and verified, drip edge, covered most of the way down with roll roofing and then the shingles.

As for the singles bent over the edge there seems to be some healthy disagreement everywhere I read about whether or not it was ok.

If it develops a leak I'll call them back out to fix it. There are no leaks on the roof now, we've had lots of heavy rain in the last month. I searched inside for any drips, nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fatboy148]

Forgot to respond to this one. There is a starter course of roll roofing like ice shield, but it does not come down to completely cover the drip edge trim.

Roll roofing and ice and water shield are two different products. There should be a starter course to secure the bottom of the shingles, it should come down and cover the bottom of the drip edge. The starter course may be either a lengthwise cut shingle with the "melt strip" at the bottom to to secure the bottom of the shingle to prevent lifting and blow off of the bottom course or a roll product that has a "melt strip" on the bottom. In either case, this should cover your drip edge at the eave and the ends of the roof the drip should go over top of it. IF... you can move the tabs on the bottom row of shingles they didn't use the proper product. You will however need one warm day at 60-70 degrees with sun on your roof to activate the melt strip and "glue" the shingles down. Either of these scenarios would be acceptable by the manufacturer. Do they leave you any spare bundles of shingles? On the wrapper, there may be installation instructions or you could go to the manufacturer's website and find the correct way to do this.

IF you haven't already, at the very least I would suggest you get your step ladder back out and see if the bottom edge of the shingles is stuck down to the starter course. IF it isn't you will have lifting and possible blow off. While I wouldn't accept it, as it will void the warranty and you could still see the drip edge....it may be rectified by applying a bead of polyurethane mastic like PL Roof & Flashing Sealant (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-...e-Roof-and-Flashing-Sealant-1675273/203163733) that will stick the shingles down. Do not use their latex version, or any asphalt-based sealant like Black Jack or any other non-elastic roofing cements/sealants as they will dry out and loose their adhesion over time.

You will also have issues at the transition with those exposed nails further up the roof. Maybe not today, tomorrow, next week, next year BUT you will have issues.

Hopefully for the builder, the inspector won't make notice of these details on their final inspection as I would say this would fall under the non-workman-like category. Hopefully for you, he will make issue of it and ask for compliance.

Good luck!


ETA....

IF the inspector was to miss these "details", you could and ask him/her if these issues are correct to gain compliance.

 

[terabitdan]

Thanks Fatboy. I'll check with Owens Corning about their installation guidelines. If they says it's wrong the builder will have to fix it.

The builder has fixed everything we asked. I assume most projects have mixups from the plans to actual building. Each time I've pointed out something not done right they fixed it right away.

They have a crew just to verify everything is done right, that crew spent a few days correcting missing studs, headers to short, improperly attached framing and anchors etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GMCGarage]

That's easy for you to say, and maybe you're good with halfass. But there are actually folks and I'm one, that expect to get what they pay for. BTW that is not an unreasonable attitude to have.

"Building looks nice" what good is that? I see a lot of nice looking hookers but wouldn't want to marry one.

Greg

Did anyone say it was half assed? Could be the best built barn ever, but just a bit too short. Construction errors happen and usually a fix is made without tearing down the original install. Seems the builder and owner came to an amicable resolution.

not sure the analogy is the same as to a building looking nice and a potential partner, seems stupid comment.

 

[LXCam]

Congrats Tera, I'm glad they were able to get you happy.

They have a crew just to verify everything is done right, that crew spent a few days correcting missing studs, headers to short, improperly attached framing and anchors etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I only quoted this cause to me the need to do so cracks me up. I had a construction company for many years. I normally stayed clear of hiring apprentices and even mid level and tried to stay with good journeyman level employees. For myself spending that money upfront and never having call backs was always profitable. Having a crew dedicated to those tasks is ridiculous IMO and a good indicator as to the typical work/product they produce.

 

[chaosracing]

That's a great question, after talking with the repair team they don't build many gambrel style garages. I know they crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion the attic floor, stairs and shed were cheaper than my other kind offers to resolve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They have a crew just to verify everything is done right, that crew spent a few days correcting missing studs, headers to short, improperly attached framing and anchors etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those two there show that this builder is inexperienced. I can see big construction companies having a crew that follows up and makes sure stuff is 100% correct and to spec, but no matter what, the jobsite foreman needs to be held accountable. Sounds like he has an inexperienced foreman as well as a inexperienced crew. Gambrel buildings are simple to build. And that still has no bearing on the fact that someone missed the measurements for the bottom, which is still built the same no matter if its gambrel, A frame, lean to or what ever.

Glad you got it fixed to your liking.

 

[chaosracing]

Will it leak there....maybe, maybe not. I have seen gambrels leak there before, but not due to nails like that. The issue is the contractor did not do an approved flashing detail there, nor did he do one at the edge.
#1 problem with nailing thru the shingle like that, aesthetics. If I was paying a small fortune for a building, I do not care if its a garage or a house or a bird house, I would want it looking as nice as possible, plus done properly.
#2 Issue with nailing thru the shingle like that, the shingles will break down faster there, I have seen it first hand.

The other problem with the edge detail is the potential for the first course to come off during a wind storm (which it will) and potentially peeling more courses off.

To the OP, I would maybe get a second opinion as to this guys work (meaning call someone out to physically look at it, ie another contractor, the building inspector, etc) and see what they say. But if your contractor can not follow simple plans and details, I wonder what else is messed up.

Just putting this out here a second time. I have been in the roofing business for a long time. They did improper details at the edge and the transition. I would get them to repair the roof.
http://www.roofingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-19-at-5.55.49-AM.png

I could not find a link for the transition flashing, but this site shows alot more info anyway.
https://www.nachi.org/asphalt-comp-shingles-part21-75.htm

 

[bp460]

terabitdan,

Thank you for sharing your project. I am glad everything worked out.

-Brad

 

[Roberts210]

Jack it up and add a course of blocks. I was foreman on a crew when we raised the timber-framed roof of a 40' X 25" building three feet. We used bottle jacks--one on the end of each of the five timber trusses. We'd have five guys on one side, jacking one side up 4 inches, block it off, carry the jacks to the other side and jack that side up 4", block that side in position and repeat, repeat, repeat, till we had it 40" higher. Then we framed in 3 feet and lowered the roof. We never even cracked the ceiling drywall.

 

[Fatboy148]

Now that we know they are Owens Corning it makes it pretty simple.

http://www.owenscorning.com/NetworkShare/Roofing/20475-H-3-Tab-Shingles-Installation-Instruction.pdf

Not to harp on this but they will need to fix/replace the shingles in order for you to have any warranty through O C.

Introduction has lots there but it specifies the type (Galvanized) and length (project at least 1/8" through the underside of the roof deck) of nails/staples. They did use some sort of underlayment for you didn't they?


Read #1 A This is telling you that they want the drip edge to go down and the underlayment over that. Yours clearly isn't done like that or you wouldn't be able to see it.

Read # 3 A & B This is about proper installation of the starter course. It says they want the starter course to project 3/8" beyond both the eave and gable end.

Read # 5B This is the mailing pattern to use on steep roof (en excess of 21"/ft) which I would dare guess the first part of your roof is.

Read #7 They WILL NOT be responsible for any problems if there is deviation from their specifications.

Read #7 C & D carefully... IF everything is not done like this... No warranty!

Good luck in gaining compliance. Remember... the building inspector is the ultimate authority to help you.