Building permits

[Farres]

I'm a contractor's kid so I grew up on the job site. I don't do major electrical, engineering or anything like that, but I have gutted and replaced five bathrooms, a kitchen, built retaining walls, etc. My wife and I are in the process of remodeling our home (bought it as a foreclosure) and it was the proverbial worst house in the best neighborhood. It will soon be the best.

We gutted our master bathroom last month and are now in the process of putting it back together--tub, tile vanity, etc. We need a new window, and because I'm busy at work I decided to have it installed. While talking with a prospective installer, he mentioned he would take care of the necessary permits. A permit? For one window? I thought he was stroking me, until I went to the city's website and looked it up. He was right.

In reviewing the city's site, anything much past replacing a light bulb requires a permit. As it turns out, I've done many, many jobs illegally over the years. In reviewing the city's site, they claim that mAny buyers will check to see if a home's repairs and remodel were properly permitted. And if it turns out the work wasn't they can complain to the city and the city will take corrective action.

So, after 20 years of doing my own work and not giving it a minute's thought, I'm now reconsidering my methods. So, my question for the GJ thread, is do you always do things by the book, or do you do what you want and get on with life?

For me ignorance was bliss. But I now know better.

 

[Daedalus]

I wondered about that too when doing my kitchen. City says any "improvement" requires a permit, along with any structural, electrical or plumbing changes. I took my kitchen down to bare studs, but did not touch structure, electric or plumbing. I reasoned that I started with a complete kitchen, and ended with a complete kitchen, so no "improvement" was actually made. I understand the need to inspect the mechanicals, but if no inspection is needed, the city is just looking for a tax to levy. Screw that.

I've found that for the most part property records are a bit skimpy. If the work you do does not conflict with what's on record, it might be difficult to determine if any work has been done.

 

[yost69]

I will get a permit for anything that may happen outside.

Anything on the inside doesn't get a permit.

 

[bczygan]

The permitting process is ostensibly there to insure that codes are complied with. A secondary benefit to the authority is to gain tax revenue for improvements.
A professional should do work that is up to code as a matter of course. And most pros pull permits simply because it protects them from liability.
A homeowner typically doesn't have the knowledge of what the codes are in every detail. So the benefit to them is that they then have the help of the inspector to do things right.
There are non professionals who have the knowledge, skills and resources to do a job in a professional manner, meeting all codes and requirements.
In this case, what to do is up to you. And depends on the neighborhood. Nosy neighbors? Houses close together? Or do you have 40 acres surrounded by national forest? Inside work, I wouldn't bother. Outside work...I would think about it.
Some places and zonings you can do mostly what you want. Some are very restrictive, as you mentioned. I have experience in design and construction, so wouldn't be afraid of any project. A lot of homeowners, who don't have a clue on what to do, are also the ones who would not pull permits. With the advent of the big box stores, they are encouraged to do all the work themselves. And in this economy, people try to do more without the necessary knowledge or skills. The result can be a lot of botched and even dangerous work. This means that when buying real estate, careful inspection is important. Checking for permits for improvements can help with this, but more important is just careful inspection of the property.

Check your local rules. Some work is allowed without permits. Here in Detroit you could do roofing on your own residence without one up to a certain value. But rules can change. Find out the latest. And find out the realities on the ground. Some places are very strict in enforcement and will even make you remove work. Some will just make you pay double fees. Some don't have the staff to survey neighborhoods for improvements. But the building department isn't your only concern, the assessors office has a motive to find improvements. Some use Google Earth to find sheds, pools and decks. And irate neighbors can also turn you in for work they don't like, of if they just don't like you.
So it's a judgement call. If you are confident in your abilities and the job is small and all the other factors line up, maybe there is no need for you to want one. Or maybe it is just easier and gives more peace of mind to just pull it. Cost shouldn't be the governing factor. Permits do cost, but they have value too.

 

[djjsr]

Most of us are do-it-yourselfers, so we don't give it a second thought when doing electrical, plumbing or even structural work. We all think we know exactly what to do when we take on a project.

But what if you're wrong and you just don't know it?

Example, I was talking to a buddy of mine recently while he was connecting some outlets on a typical 120v circuit he had just installed himself. He's a very confident guy a never hires anyone to do anything.

I noticed he was connecting a white wire to a brass screw and told him that it was wrong. He looked at me like I was from Mars and replied that he always did it that way.

I lent him one of those little yellow plug in testers with the 3 indicator lights and suggested that he check each outlet when he was done with the installation.

A few days later, I asked him how it went and he said he had the outlet wires reversed. He then told me that instead of pulling each outlet, it was a quick fix by just switching the black and white wires in the breaker box.

Sometimes, you don't know what you don't know.

Permits are a necessary evil.

 

[tdkkart]

A permit would not have fixed this problem. It MIGHT have caught the screwup, but it would not have changed the lack of self education.

 

[djjsr]

A permit would not have fixed this problem. It MIGHT have caught the screwup, but it would not have changed the lack of self education.

A permit would have triggered an inspection. That would have fixed the problem.

 

[madosta]

It's a double edged sword. There are definitely reasons to get permits and an inspection being one of them. They are probably more for the future than anything. If someone builds a shoddy lean-to on a block garage that needs rebuilt, should I pull a permit to rebuild it myself, differently? Eh...

Do I need one to put 8sq of shingles on a shed? Eh... The inspector comes out, looks at the roof from the ground, signs off on it. Thanks.

Wiring, yes, have someone look that over. Bad electrical can cause fires - but people seem to do this all the time by themselves. Garage journal is great for pointing out resources and NEC code, but get some help.

Plumbing, yes, definitely. Wrong plumbing can make you sick.

Rough construction, sure.

It's a little unclear as well what you should pull a permit for. I've asked around, my neighbors and friends are mostly, "no, don't pull a permit for that it's your garage, detached."

If I did anything in my house, or new buildings, definitely want all up to code. I bought a garage that was falling apart and have been fixing it up (with qualified consultation and quotes) to improve my property value. It's an improvement, so I'll be taxed more, but I have to be charged to pay more taxes. Sometimes I get confused. Progress.

 

[bczygan]

Most of us are do-it-yourselfers, so we don't give it a second thought when doing electrical, plumbing or even structural work. We all think we know exactly what to do when we take on a project.

But what if you're wrong and you just don't know it?

Example, I was talking to a buddy of mine recently while he was connecting some outlets on a typical 120v circuit he had just installed himself. He's a very confident guy a never hires anyone to do anything.

I noticed he was connecting a white wire to a brass screw and told him that it was wrong. He looked at me like I was from Mars and replied that he always did it that way.

I lent him one of those little yellow plug in testers with the 3 indicator lights and suggested that he check each outlet when he was done with the installation.

A few days later, I asked him how it went and he said he had the outlet wires reversed. He then told me that instead of pulling each outlet, it was a quick fix by just switching the black and white wires in the breaker box.

Sometimes, you don't know what you don't know.

Permits are a necessary evil.

"Sometimes, you don't know what you don't know"...So true. Even pros get it wrong. Our plumber mixed up the lines and had the cold on the left. And our concrete guy sloped the basement floor AWAY from the drain.

Permit and inspection puts another set of eyes on a job, which always is good practice.

Proper work can be done without them though. This isn't rocket science.

In the real world, a lot of work is done without permits. Here in Detroit, they changed the rules and homeowners can't do roofing anymore without a permit. Doesn't change anything but get them a potential of more fees. In actuality, even commercial roofers don't get permits. They put a big crew on the job and do the roof in one day or two at the most. Not much chance of getting caught.

Most jack leg work interior residential work, and even outdoor maintenance work like roofing and painting, in the city is done without permits. Like most government programs, permits are mostly to protect Joe and Jane homeowner from contractors and to set a minimum level of work.

 

[MoparTrucks]

My county is zoned entirely agricultural and we have zero required permits outside of Federally mandated septic...none. You can build your entire house and plumb it and wire it yourself without one input or permit from anyone. I like that but I will tell you its a good thing and a very bad thing all wrapped into one.

We have had to undo/re-do a lot of poorly done and downright dangerous stuff in our old farmhouse and as a volunteer Fire Fighter and First Responder I have responded to plenty of accidents, fires and injuries partially caused by lack of any codes. Dont get me wrong, I prefer it this way and since we are in our retirement home and never plan on moving again it works great for us but I think if I was in mid career and probably only going to live in the house for 5 or 6 years it would be stressful because there would be a lot more pressure to get everything fixed right away.

We were stationed in Alaska "The Last Frontier" before moving here and we needed a permit to put up a storm door which was ridiculous, here we have done major renovation work inside and out including putting up a couple new structures on the farm and running electric to them...not one permit required. So I guess I am not againts permits totally and see the need for them on some things but as someone else mentioned, it becomes a money grab and governments arent known for restraint.

I would get to know your permitting requirements and pick your battles. If its something likely to come up at resale or can be seen from the street I would get the permits.

 

[denis4x4]

We recently finished a major remodel and when the inspector came out for the final, he told me that 50% of his work load is addressing projects where permits were never pulled and now those same homes were under contract to be sold. The red flag is an ad for a 2500 sf home and the county accessor's office shows it's really 1900 sf.

 

[Falcon67]

Most larger cities are like that. Technically in places you'd need a homeowner permit to change a plug. In the big city here, you can get a homeowner electrical work permit but you have to take some sort of test to get it. But for all the houses we've bought and sold, I never checked and never had a buyer check for permitted work.

We we did all the rehab on the old house here in Merkel, I called about permits - nope, no need, thanks. When I built the 20x224 shop in 1997, I called - nope, no permit needed. For the new shop started at the new house in 2011 - $50 permit. And all I got was a hand writtent receipt - no real "permit" to display on the job site. So - YMMV LOL. That said, this town is full of unpermitted work and general **** - like a carport around the corner that they turned into a giant steel box with a lock and chain on the door.

> The red flag is an ad for a 2500 sf home and the county accessor's office shows
>it's really 1900 sf.

Hard for that to happen here as the assessors come around every two years and will actually measure the property. They note changes, but don't give a damn about permits. My shop showed up on the tax roll detail for us well before I completed it. They measured it right after the siding was on, because I could tell from the footprints someone had measured the building.

 

[jimindm]

The permitting process is to just assure that what you are doing is safe and up to code. Many cities work of off code guidelines that are not current. Untill just recently, our city was the 2008 codes for electric. Where you get into trouble is an extensive remodel, that you are adding a declared value that is a certain % of total value, that would make you bring the whole house up to code.

We put a room addition on. A large living room, with two bedrooms on the second floor. A full basement under it. Some small things we had to do was hardwired, battery back up smoke alarms in all bedrooms, attics, and basement. When one was activated they all were activated. The other was arc fault recepticals in all of the bedrooms.

Inspections are for your safety. Federal law is that this process is not a money maker for a municipality. They can not charge more than the cost of what it cost them to provide the service.

You can bet that the permit department has a hand in hand relationship with the assessment division. As soon as your project is final, they will come knocking.

I would say that pick you battles with getting a permit. If your are expanding a bathroom, or kitchen that the lay out changes dramaticly, where you are changing vent lines and plumbing lines, and running new electrical circuits. I would maybe think about it. If you are adding a 2nd bathroom maybe.

What you will run into, is that some of the chores may have to be done by a licensed professionel. Our city has a home owner program, that if it is owner occupied, and you can show the permit department that you know some what of what you are doing they will allow you to do it yourself. In the case of my addition, I passed their tests enough to do my own wiring, relocate a natural gas line, and extend the HVAC system to meet my needs. We had no plumbing involved. The city only was concerned with the house side of the electric. The power company needed to see a professionel installed the mast and the main box, before they hooked up.

If is has anything outside that could be seen I would, definitly consider a permit.

As a buyer of property, if it appears to be freshly remodeled, I would investigate a little about whether a permit was acquired. Not having a permit would not be deal killer, but I would look closer into the how the work was done. Electrical work like how wires are ran or the box connections. Does it look fresh, like the person is just flipping the property. If so what corners were cut.

I think that most people are pretty good judging the character of someone. If you are looking at and talking to a person, you could probly tell what kind of work they done. So can the permit department, whether you are asking permission or forgivness, they will have a pretty good idea of the person that you are.

 

[IHI]

Being in the residential trades with my business for 20yrs, "I" know exactly why our local towns are very strict with permitting...as mentioned above, even storm doors get a permit here. We have done alot of renovations that lead to us having to us our "unforeseen circumstances" clause when we unearthed an ambitious DIY's complete lack of common sense and wrecklessness, and the worst part is that it costs the NEW homeowners more than they anticipated all thanks to a previous owner trying to save a buck venturing into the unknown, and even worse, listening to the way their buddy, uncle, dad, grandad "that's been doing it this way for years".....well thanks to your uncle, dad, grandad...this is why we have codes because the way they did it was wrong and dangerious.

Insurance companies also back permitting issues since they "used" to have to pay for problems from people that "thought" they knew what they were doing. Anymore they have taken the stance of "no permit and a problem occured due to work performed without proper inspection, no coverage"

Locally they have also cracked down at sale time...background checks on homes are being performed and if a home was initally bought with era correct kitchen, bathroom pieces and is then being sold and touted with "new kitchen, remodeled bathroom" they search for permits...if none found they take 2 routes:
1. Seller can pull permits that should've been pulled in the first place with the fine (double permit fee) and have inspector come in...if electrical/plumbing they make seller pull down sections of walls to inspect wiring/plumbing connections.
2. They can sell their home BUT they have to deduct the price, rated by appraisal company, the cost of the new kitchen or new bathroom...essentially taking thousands to tens of thousands of a dollar hit right off the batt, and then as i seen, the new seller knocking them down even further since they wanted to factor in cost of having an inspector and contractor coming in and righting any wrongs so they came up with a number of what they think it might take to have that aspect of work done.

I'm all for folks doing their own projects, but the simple fact of the matter, at least based on the thousands of jobs I've seen over the years, there is a very very very small group of folks that actually know the right way things are to be done and do it...most dont because doing it right costs more money, and the whole point of DIY is to save money, OR they go by hearsay, and I'm yet to have these so called family/friend specialist that were called in to look over our shoulder have any inkling as to what the hell was really going on...they basically got a free education from professionals when the person that called them over thought they knew what they were doing LOL.

Check your local city hall and get upto date on what needs to be permitted...it will ensure you dont screw over the next buyer down the road and possibly keep your **** out of court should your good intentions turn into a tragedy for somebody else..

Also, another thing they started locally about 5 years ago, smoke alarms. Used to be if the job cost was $1000 or more we had to install smokes throughout the home, the following year it turned into "anytime access to interior". So if we sided a home-no smokes. If we put a new entry door in, smokes throughout the home went up...adding additional cost to job, and the permit would NOT be signed off until inspector made a tour of the home to insure smoke were installed and working. For now it's battery powered in exsisting homes, and there is still talk of making these smokes hardwired like they have to be in new homes....they have'nt pushed that yet since a person wanting a $500 front entry door would then have to spring for $3000 in hardwired smokes....fact is that door will not get put in by a professional since obviously the price would be ridiculous.

 

[GarageEnvy]

Well I'm a bit of a hypocrite with this one. Like mentioned above, everything on the interior I did w/o a permit. Partly to save on taxes, partly to avoid the hassle and mostly to avoid having an inspector see the work prior owners had done. When I added on the garage, I got a permit and nervously hoped they would keep their eyes on the garage.

I can tell you as an appraiser, every week I run into someone who screws themself by not getting a permit. If you're adding on area that you would like to have included in the gross living area of your house, you should get a permit. The old way of thinking (by banks, FHA and FNMA) was "if it was done in a workmanlike manner" similar to the rest of the house then count it. The logic is a prospective buyer would likely include it. The new thinking is "no permit, no count". The logic being if the collateral burned down or was lost to a severe storm, it couldn't be rebuilt as it stood. Personally, I think it's a confusion between market value and insurable value but I don't make the rules.

Here's the most common example. A guy encloses his garage or patio and doesn't get a permit. Then when he sells it, he doesn't gain the value of the area AND he loses the value of the garage or patio. Best case scenario is he loses the cost to restore it back to the permitted use.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Municipalities are MUCH more picky and seem to want a permit for any / everything.

Counties in the past have been much more relaxed, but they too seem to be tightening up lately. For our area, the wording is kind of vague in that I think it says something like "substantial improvement" without further clarification of what that means.

They've also been working closer with the appraisal district, so any permit info gets fed to them so your property can be flagged for closer scrutiny when being appraised.

If something can be proved that it was done without a permit, usually all the city / county wants is their permit fees + penalties... *rolleyes*

 

[gpalmer77]

I will get a permit for anything that may happen outside.

Anything on the inside doesn't get a permit.

^^^This. Mostly.

I didn't get any permits inside for a full rehab, down to the studs, all new electrical, HVAC, gas, water, sewer. I didn't get any permits for all the windows I replaced, some of which moved, or were created where no window existed before. I also made structural improvements to the house with no permits.

I did get permits any time I had a contractor do anything, except for a licensed electrician friend and my Uncle who did the HVAC. Roof and fence got permits. I also got a permit for the siding, which I am doing myself, but it is no fee and no inspection.

 

[jimindm]

Being in the residential trades with my business for 20yrs, "I" know exactly why our local towns are very strict with permitting...as mentioned above, even storm doors get a permit here. We have done alot of renovations that lead to us having to us our "unforeseen circumstances" clause when we unearthed an ambitious DIY's complete lack of common sense and wrecklessness, and the worst part is that it costs the NEW homeowners more than they anticipated all thanks to a previous owner trying to save a buck venturing into the unknown, and even worse, listening to the way their buddy, uncle, dad, grandad "that's been doing it this way for years".....well thanks to your uncle, dad, grandad...this is why we have codes because the way they did it was wrong and dangerious.

Insurance companies also back permitting issues since they "used" to have to pay for problems from people that "thought" they knew what they were doing. Anymore they have taken the stance of "no permit and a problem occured due to work performed without proper inspection, no coverage"

Locally they have also cracked down at sale time...background checks on homes are being performed and if a home was initally bought with era correct kitchen, bathroom pieces and is then being sold and touted with "new kitchen, remodeled bathroom" they search for permits...if none found they take 2 routes:
1. Seller can pull permits that should've been pulled in the first place with the fine (double permit fee) and have inspector come in...if electrical/plumbing they make seller pull down sections of walls to inspect wiring/plumbing connections.
2. They can sell their home BUT they have to deduct the price, rated by appraisal company, the cost of the new kitchen or new bathroom...essentially taking thousands to tens of thousands of a dollar hit right off the batt, and then as i seen, the new seller knocking them down even further since they wanted to factor in cost of having an inspector and contractor coming in and righting any wrongs so they came up with a number of what they think it might take to have that aspect of work done.

I'm all for folks doing their own projects, but the simple fact of the matter, at least based on the thousands of jobs I've seen over the years, there is a very very very small group of folks that actually know the right way things are to be done and do it...most dont because doing it right costs more money, and the whole point of DIY is to save money, OR they go by hearsay, and I'm yet to have these so called family/friend specialist that were called in to look over our shoulder have any inkling as to what the hell was really going on...they basically got a free education from professionals when the person that called them over thought they knew what they were doing LOL.

Check your local city hall and get upto date on what needs to be permitted...it will ensure you dont screw over the next buyer down the road and possibly keep your **** out of court should your good intentions turn into a tragedy for somebody else..

Also, another thing they started locally about 5 years ago, smoke alarms. Used to be if the job cost was $1000 or more we had to install smokes throughout the home, the following year it turned into "anytime access to interior". So if we sided a home-no smokes. If we put a new entry door in, smokes throughout the home went up...adding additional cost to job, and the permit would NOT be signed off until inspector made a tour of the home to insure smoke were installed and working. For now it's battery powered in exsisting homes, and there is still talk of making these smokes hardwired like they have to be in new homes....they have'nt pushed that yet since a person wanting a $500 front entry door would then have to spring for $3000 in hardwired smokes....fact is that door will not get put in by a professional since obviously the price would be ridiculous.

I do not know where in Iowa you are at, but in Des Moines, due to the economy,the inspectors on the street just drive from place to place. It would have to be way obvious for them to catch you. Most people are caught on complaint basis. At that point an inspector makes it a duty to stop and look. They just are to busy. To be honest, I would guess that an inspector could stop in many neighborhoods, and see many zoning and building problems, that they could write up. With the skeleton staff they have now it is just on complaint basis.

Most are good at what they do, and looking at the situation, they can come to a conclusion. I am sure most people can tell, when they are being lied to. If you are screwing with them, you can bet that you are going to get screwed by them.

It would be easy to make the case of turning a two bedroom, one bath into a four bedroom two and a half bath, with no permit. Yea that could be done by a person sitting behind a computer all day. I am not sure how much of that is done or would want to be done. Some one would eventually make the case of the house that is being sold at 30% of assessed value because it has been repossessed and the urban miners have destroyed it. The city can not just go after the properties that they want to. My guess is that they would uncover a whole lot more houses that are not worth there assessed value, than ones that are worth more.

I am not sure about you insurance statements, but I have an insurance audit every couple of years. Most any issue is solved at that time.

 

[Toolfool]

I've been in construction for over 28 years. Licensed, bonded, and fully insured. When I sold my house on Long Island to move out here, the local building department held up the closing for over six months. When the title company did their research, the building department refused to release a "certificate of occupancy" until they were granted access to the house for a full inspection. Apparently, one of the neighbors had, at some point, called in a complaint about work being done. Over time, I had done a lot of inside work without permits. I had replaced almost all the plumbing and electric (galvanized steel pipes and knob$ tube) in the house. Finished the basement as a rec room (everyone in the neighborhood had finished basements and even illegal apartments in their basements) which violated the "no living space below grade" rule. They made my life a living hell to complete the sale. I was very lucky that my buyer really loved the house and waited it out, but it cost me a ton.

 

[Cyberbear]

This is a great question, and one I've dealt with several times over the years. When people complain they didn't receive good workmanship from whoever worked on their home, the local govt. was obligated to resolve the problem using their mandated police powers. After WWII many shoddy homes were poorly constructed and so the states required all contractors to obtain permits. Eventually they convinced all private property owners they needed permits as well, but this isn't entirely true.
My research indicates that county building depts. only have jurisdiction over municipal property and not over private property, unless they can convince, or scare, you into obtaining one, which then gives them legal authority to enter your particular private property.
Unless you give your consent, govt. employees have no lawful reason to trespass on your property. Most people won't study the Law, and merely roll over when told they must {should} comply, by first obtaining a contract from the county, that is legally enforceable. Also, registering your property with the tax assessor is voluntary in most states, but the govt. will never admit to that, unless you make them prove it in court where they can be held liable for fraud in their personal capacity. We've all been dumbed down and brain washed into accepting everything they tell us we MUST do, when most of it is voluntary by consent. Ignorance is bliss...

 

[tomsmith]

In my town, getting a permit results in an increase in the value of your property if they think whatever you are doing adds value (e.g. finishing basement etc.). This means higher property tax the next year.

So there's an incentive not to get a permit..

 

[Phil S.]

As a Lic. Building Contractor for 40 years in Calif. married to a 20 year Lic. Real Estate Broker I will simply say that anyone who doesn't obtain the proper permits for ANY work performed on their property is just simply going to be very, very sorry when they go to sell that property. Unless you live in some undeveloped state like Lousiana, or Alaska, (I'm not saying that there not great places to live) but even those will catch-up in time.

 

[denis4x4]

In my town, getting a permit results in an increase in the value of your property if they think whatever you are doing adds value (e.g. finishing basement etc.). This means higher property tax the next year.

So there's an incentive not to get a permit..[/QUO

The La Plata county building department spends about 50% of it's time correcting problems that crop up when someone sells a house that has been modified with out a building permit. Several deals have been lost due to owners ignoring the permit process.

So what if your property values go up…….that value is what the lenders look at for financing and refinancing a home.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This is a great question, and one I've dealt with several times over the years. When people complain they didn't receive good workmanship from whoever worked on their home, the local govt. was obligated to resolve the problem using their mandated police powers. After WWII many shoddy homes were poorly constructed and so the states required all contractors to obtain permits. Eventually they convinced all private property owners they needed permits as well, but this isn't entirely true.
My research indicates that county building depts. only have jurisdiction over municipal property and not over private property, unless they can convince, or scare, you into obtaining one, which then gives them legal authority to enter your particular private property.
Unless you give your consent, govt. employees have no lawful reason to trespass on your property. Most people won't study the Law, and merely roll over when told they must {should} comply, by first obtaining a contract from the county, that is legally enforceable. Also, registering your property with the tax assessor is voluntary in most states, but the govt. will never admit to that, unless you make them prove it in court where they can be held liable for fraud in their personal capacity. We've all been dumbed down and brain washed into accepting everything they tell us we MUST do, when most of it is voluntary by consent. Ignorance is bliss...

While some of what you spew forth might be true somewhere most of it is not..... at least not here in Georgia. In GA the Chief Appraiser (and thus, the staff) have right under law, to physically inspect all properties, and to enter the property (but not inside buildings) as necessary to appraise the property. In GA the form PT-61 that is submitted when filing a deed provides ownership information to the assessor (this is mandated by law), and every property owner is required by law to file a return of value each year on their property.

I cannot speak for other states, but I do know that many states in the south have similar requirements.

Charles

 

[lukedwag]

The biggest issue i have found is dealing with the code officials who don't understand building. They make the process about 20 times harder then it needs to be.

 

[Falcon67]

My research indicates that county building depts. only have jurisdiction over municipal property and not over private property, unless they can convince, or scare, you into obtaining one, which then gives them legal authority to enter your particular private property.
Unless you give your consent, govt. employees have no lawful reason to trespass on your property. Most people won't study the Law, and merely roll over when told they must {should} comply, by first obtaining a contract from the county, that is legally enforceable. Also, registering your property with the tax assessor is voluntary in most states, but the govt. will never admit to that, unless you make them prove it in court where they can be held liable for fraud in their personal capacity. We've all been dumbed down and brain washed into accepting everything they tell us we MUST do, when most of it is voluntary by consent. Ignorance is bliss...

Don't know where you live, but none of this is true or remotely anywhere close to the law in Texas. You don't register anything - your deed is filed with the county per law and the appraisal district works from that filing. Even if you don't - which is not under your control anyway, the title company/law office is required to file the deed - properties are reviewed on foot every two years - also required by law. You cannot block either inspectors or appraisers from access your property - they have a legal right to enter.

 

[djjsr]

My research indicates that county building depts. only have jurisdiction over municipal property and not over private property, unless they can convince, or scare, you into obtaining one, which then gives them legal authority to enter your particular private property.
Unless you give your consent, govt. employees have no lawful reason to trespass on your property. Most people won't study the Law, and merely roll over when told they must {should} comply, by first obtaining a contract from the county, that is legally enforceable. Also, registering your property with the tax assessor is voluntary in most states, but the govt. will never admit to that, unless you make them prove it in court where they can be held liable for fraud in their personal capacity. We've all been dumbed down and brain washed into accepting everything they tell us we MUST do, when most of it is voluntary by consent. Ignorance is bliss...

I hope nobody reading this thread assumes these are facts.

 

[Ray-CA]

My wife says that "A fee without service is a tax." If you have to get a permit and the city doesn't come out for an inspection etc. then you've just paid an additional tax.

Here is what my City says about permits:

"When do I need a construction permit? When don't I need a permit?
A construction permit is needed for all new construction. In many cases, a permit is needed for repair or replacement of existing fixtures, such as replacing windows. A plumbing, electrical or mechanical permit maybe needed for any addition or changes to a building's existing system; for example, moving or adding an electrical outlet requires a permit.

A construction permit is not needed for items such as wallpapering, painting or similar finish work; fences six feet high or lower and not enclosing a pool; platforms, decks and walks 30 inches high or less over grade or not over basement; and in several other cases. However, reviews may be required from other agencies; be sure to check before building.

For plumbing, mechanical and electrical work, replacement or repair of fixtures (such as changing water faucets or replacing switches) does not normally require a permit. Replacing a water heater or adding a permanently wired light fixture does, however, require a permit."

The City's web site does have links that further explain and expand what requires/does not require permits.

Ray

 

[ozyborn]

^^^This. Mostly.

I didn't get any permits inside for a full rehab, down to the studs, all new electrical, HVAC, gas, water, sewer. I didn't get any permits for all the windows I replaced, some of which moved, or were created where no window existed before. I also made structural improvements to the house with no permits.

I did get permits any time I had a contractor do anything, except for a licensed electrician friend and my Uncle who did the HVAC. Roof and fence got permits. I also got a permit for the siding, which I am doing myself, but it is no fee and no inspection.

This is my way as well. I feel the building codes are to lax so I overbuild things according to my friends. Well tough, I like them solid. As far as the inspectors, it is more about raising your taxes than safety.
I have a lot of fun with the local city inspectors at my mothers home. On her side of the street is county, other side is city. County does not require anything. It is fun to boot them off the property when they are in the wrong and everybody knows it.

 

[Ajustable]

I will not build without a permit simply because, I know I don't know everything, and having the building departments approval gives me some assurance that the building will be built to code correctly. Even if I have complete confident's in the builder.

My peeve is that I can hire an architect to draw my plans with in the building code, and still have the building department ask for a further Engineers stamp of approval. Which of course is a further expense. Isn't it the building departments responsibility to look at the plan and approve if the requirements are met? Why do I now, even though the plans are to national building code, still need a further approval from an engineer. Is it not sufficient to use an Licensed architect?

This layer upon layer of bureaucracy just feels like a one hand feeding the other or some one not wanting to take responsibility for there Job. After all this is just a two car garage.

So I do needs plans and permits to work from. The process of acquiring the proper permits has become so cumbersome that it make's a guy just want to build with out a permit.

 

[ozyborn]

As a Lic. Building Contractor for 40 years in Calif. married to a 20 year Lic. Real Estate Broker I will simply say that anyone who doesn't obtain the proper permits for ANY work performed on their property is just simply going to be very, very sorry when they go to sell that property. Unless you live in some undeveloped state like Lousiana, or Alaska, (I'm not saying that there not great places to live) but even those will catch-up in time.

Here in Illinois we are suppose to get permits for nearly everything. My father and I completely rebuilt his house. Replacing windows, dealing with the old kitchen ( they made the cabinets flush by just cutting a hole and pushing them outside) NO permits. All while the house next door was also being rebuilt with inspectors all over the place. When they came over, my dad just told them to go to hell and get off the property. They made their standard claims on why permits are needed and resell and such. Fast forward 10 years, after he passed away. We have ZERO issues selling the property.


All permits does is give the cities a reason to raise your taxes on anything. You replace you roof they jack the taxes. You did not improve you just replaced the rood that had worn out naturally.

 

[Jackfre]

On my last house I did a lot of work that was not permitted. When it cmd time to sell the house the Purchase & Sale Agreement specifically asked if "all work was permitted". When my wife saw that she freaked. It all worked out fine but here on the new house with the extent of work we are doing I have played the "straight and narrow". Not that I wanted to but it is all worth it not to have her worrying about it.

 

[finn]

Here in Illinois we are suppose to get permits for nearly everything. My father and I completely rebuilt his house. Replacing windows, dealing with the old kitchen ( they made the cabinets flush by just cutting a hole and pushing them outside) NO permits. All while the house next door was also being rebuilt with inspectors all over the place. When they came over, my dad just told them to go to hell and get off the property. They made their standard claims on why permits are needed and resell and such. Fast forward 10 years, after he passed away. We have ZERO issues selling the property.


All permits does is give the cities a reason to raise your taxes on anything. You replace you roof they jack the taxes. You did not improve you just replaced the rood that had worn out naturally.

In your sales agreement you have to certify that all work has been permitted, where required. If you fraudulently certify that permits were pulled, the buyer can force you to cover the cost of redoing the work. Nice way to get a new kitchen or bath on your dime.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

Around here you need a permit to build or add on, but not to remodel in the county. Inside the city limits the permit process has been driven by the construction unions, especially the plumbers union, you need a permit to sneeze.

When I built my house I wired, plumbed, and did most of the finish work. I had mostly great inspectors except 2. The septic inspector was an overly educated idiot. She would argue about whether you were standing on "dirt" or "soil". The guy who did the rough plumbing inspection was competent but an a$$hole. I made a couple of mistakes and he didn't pass it rightfully so, but he refused to tell me what was wrong because I didn't use a union plumber. He got fired between my rough and final inspection I don't know why. His replacement was great. I had forgot to put a down pipe on the pressure relief valve on the water heater. This is an automatic fail because scalding water is a bad thing. It was the last thing he looked at. He said I am gonna take a little break before I inspect that water heater, he went outside and lit a cigarette. I stared at the heater for about 30 seconds till it dawned on me what was missing. OH **** I don't have any 3/4 inch pipe here, wait there's a bar clamp. Unscrew clamp screw pipe into t&p valve, plumbing passed inspection.

The best was the final inspection. We had been living in a 2 bedroom mobile home, me, wife, 11 month old daughter, and sister in law. The house was basically done but needed a lot of little things finished. I came home on the Thursday before Christmas looked at the chaos and told my wife "we are moving on Saturday start packing". And we did.

Come march I have the last of the little things done and call for the inspection. The inspector walks in and looks around, my daughters toys are everywhere, dirty dishes in the sink, etc. He looks around and says "So you are about ready to move in huh?" I just smiled and said "yeah just about". He grinned and went on with his inspection.

With the 2 exceptions all of the inspectors were both professional and reasonable dealing with a do it yourselfer. When I build my next house I hope they are still there.

 

[SH7mi]

I have been doing carpentry for 30 years and have witnessed enough to know most building inspectors (not all) are on the take. I have seen electrical inspectors walk into one room of a house, do a 360, put the ok on the window and leave, he spent a total of 5 minutes in the house.
Last spring in Philadelphia when the building collapsed and resulted in a few deaths, the building inspector responsible committed suicide. Permits are a means of taxation nothing more. If you work in your own home it's on you to do things correctly or have them done correctly. If something fails you have yourself to blame.
When I bid work for a homeowner I tell them up front the permit, should they choose to purchase one, is their responsibility.

 

[bparksntx]

Every argument has pros and cons. This one is no different. My problem with the city permit office is they don't use common sense. I'm going through a real life example right now. I have 11 acres inside the city limit. There is nothing on my land and I want to build a pole barn. I am surrounded by several tracts of land all in the 10-11 acre size.

So if you can draw a mental picture, it's rural land but inside the city limit. The city won't grant me a building permit because they require a paved drive from the road to my barn. I told them I will have a gravel drive but a paved drive would blow my budget out of the water. I told them other properties in the area have gravel drives. The city said I have to appear at the planning and zoning meeting and ask for an exception. $210 just for the application and it delays my building schedule because the next meeting isn't until April 22.

If I were in a dense residential area I could see their point, but like I said, it's rural land that happens to be in the city limits.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Being in the residential trades with my business for 20yrs, "I" know exactly why our local towns are very strict with permitting...as mentioned above, even storm doors get a permit here. We have done alot of renovations that lead to us having to us our "unforeseen circumstances" clause when we unearthed an ambitious DIY's complete lack of common sense and wrecklessness, and the worst part is that it costs the NEW homeowners more than they anticipated all thanks to a previous owner trying to save a buck venturing into the unknown, and even worse, listening to the way their buddy, uncle, dad, grandad "that's been doing it this way for years".....well thanks to your uncle, dad, grandad...this is why we have codes because the way they did it was wrong and dangerious.

Insurance companies also back permitting issues since they "used" to have to pay for problems from people that "thought" they knew what they were doing. Anymore they have taken the stance of "no permit and a problem occured due to work performed without proper inspection, no coverage"

Locally they have also cracked down at sale time...background checks on homes are being performed and if a home was initally bought with era correct kitchen, bathroom pieces and is then being sold and touted with "new kitchen, remodeled bathroom" they search for permits...if none found they take 2 routes:
1. Seller can pull permits that should've been pulled in the first place with the fine (double permit fee) and have inspector come in...if electrical/plumbing they make seller pull down sections of walls to inspect wiring/plumbing connections.
2. They can sell their home BUT they have to deduct the price, rated by appraisal company, the cost of the new kitchen or new bathroom...essentially taking thousands to tens of thousands of a dollar hit right off the batt, and then as i seen, the new seller knocking them down even further since they wanted to factor in cost of having an inspector and contractor coming in and righting any wrongs so they came up with a number of what they think it might take to have that aspect of work done.

I'm all for folks doing their own projects, but the simple fact of the matter, at least based on the thousands of jobs I've seen over the years, there is a very very very small group of folks that actually know the right way things are to be done and do it...most dont because doing it right costs more money, and the whole point of DIY is to save money, OR they go by hearsay, and I'm yet to have these so called family/friend specialist that were called in to look over our shoulder have any inkling as to what the hell was really going on...they basically got a free education from professionals when the person that called them over thought they knew what they were doing LOL.

Check your local city hall and get upto date on what needs to be permitted...it will ensure you dont screw over the next buyer down the road and possibly keep your **** out of court should your good intentions turn into a tragedy for somebody else..

Also, another thing they started locally about 5 years ago, smoke alarms. Used to be if the job cost was $1000 or more we had to install smokes throughout the home, the following year it turned into "anytime access to interior". So if we sided a home-no smokes. If we put a new entry door in, smokes throughout the home went up...adding additional cost to job, and the permit would NOT be signed off until inspector made a tour of the home to insure smoke were installed and working. For now it's battery powered in exsisting homes, and there is still talk of making these smokes hardwired like they have to be in new homes....they have'nt pushed that yet since a person wanting a $500 front entry door would then have to spring for $3000 in hardwired smokes....fact is that door will not get put in by a professional since obviously the price would be ridiculous.

I don't believe that, I had a friend that was a insurance adjuster and he said they had to prove that you were negligent (that it was your deliberate intent to destory the property) to have a reason not to pay off.

he said they paid off once on a guy that had frozen pipes in his crawl space, so before he went to work he put a tube heater under there and left, well it burnt the house down..........he said they paid off on it because the guy didn't do it intensionally.

 

[frankush]

I will not build without a permit simply because, I know I don't know everything, and having the building departments approval gives me some assurance that the building will be built to code correctly. Even if I have complete confident's in the builder.

My peeve is that I can hire an architect to draw my plans with in the building code, and still have the building department ask for a further Engineers stamp of approval. Which of course is a further expense. Isn't it the building departments responsibility to look at the plan and approve if the requirements are met? Why do I now, even though the plans are to national building code, still need a further approval from an engineer. Is it not sufficient to use an Licensed architect?

This layer upon layer of bureaucracy just feels like a one hand feeding the other or some one not wanting to take responsibility for there Job. After all this is just a two car garage.

So I do needs plans and permits to work from. The process of acquiring the proper permits has become so cumbersome that it make's a guy just want to build with out a permit.

There's only one reason for a code official to require an engineer's stamp. That's to cover the inspector's ***. It's pretty rare to see a home built exactly as represented on a drawing. Changes are made all the time, for one reason or another. The permitting process is a cash cow for most municipalities. At least it was where I was employed. The problem with being an inspector is that you're always wrong, even when you're right. Every governing body that performs inspections also has a fine print disclaimer that states that they have zero liability if your project burns to the ground, collapses or is unlivable. They accept no responsibility for anything they inspect.

Buddy of mine bought a $1.5 million dollar brand spanking new home. It passed all inspections and was issued a certificate of occupancy. Family moves in and everyone's happy. First big rain, basement floods. Here comes a new whole house generator. Next big rain, basement floods again. Finished basement since new. Problem turned out to be grade at top of foundation. The foundation was poured 6 inches too low. Properties are built right on top of one another and no matter what you do to the finished grade, there is no fix. The top of foundation inspection was approved before they could start framing. Ending result was they threatened to sue the builder and took another of his new houses. Some other schmuck gets the flooding problem. The village just washed their hands of the whole thing.

 

[Architorture]

the inspector never has liability, disclaimer or not...building inspectors in most cases do not have the legal authority or licensing to produce the very drawings and systems they approve.

an architect or engineer is legally liable for the work they produce...an inspector faces no such liability unless there is flat out negligence or corruption involved.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

the inspector never has liability, disclaimer or not...building inspectors in most cases do not have the legal authority or licensing to produce the very drawings and systems they approve. an architect or engineer is legally liable for the work they produce...an inspector faces no such liability unless there is flat out negligence or corruption involved.

so true, also lots of times they have to reminded that there job is "safety" not design as so many of them think it is.

although you guys have your "errors and omissions" clause.
around here contractors drawings use to be "approved for construction"
but after a bunch of lawsuits, they now say "reviewed for compliance" but not approved any more.

now i'm not being a smart ***, just poking a little fun