Building too seriously

[tcianci]

All I can figure is that a lot of the people who comment here live in an ideal world that in many cases, manages to skirt the realities of typical building construction and they tend to ignore the more conventional ways that things are done. Not to get on a soapbox, but as a professional contractor with over 40 years of experience, you guys turn a simple construction project into a spiritual quest of sorts. The construction techniques of super insulating, sealing and caulking, wrapping and all of this other new-age hocus pocus typically end up creating a building that appears to be state of the art, when in reality it is a structure that has absolutely no "bandwidth" when it comes to being able to tolerate any failure or degradation of any of it's high tech components, prolonged periods of non-use or insufficient maintenance. Loosely translated, nothing that is being built today is ever gonna make it onto a lovely calendar of antique barns. They simply will disintegrate many years before their old low tech counterparts. Maybe thats not an issue...maybe folks are only looking for a 20 to 30 year service life from these from these structures and then leave them for your kids to tear down or maybe tear them down yourself when they begin to ruin your property value. So, if you insist on foaming and taping yourselves into buildings that are so tight that you measure the air changes in weeks instead of hours, finishing your interior walls with OSB just in case you didn't **** in enough formaldehyde while sheathing the place, research the ultimate heating system that costs so much you will never live to see the payback period over a more conventional arrangement, or installing the perfect floor coating that is sure to make you have a heart attack the minute it chips or scratches... go for it.

On the other hand, Maybe I just don't get it. Maybe GJ is not the large cross section of folks I thought it was.... Maybe it's a hangout for construction and equipment challenged loonies!...people who don't have a life outside of agonizing over the insulation value of a piece of foam about 2 inches by 3 feet on the external perimeter of a stub wall (I'm not making this up). Maybe main-stream hobbyists and DIY'ers don't come here at all? I don't know.

Forgive my rant. There is obviously a wealth of information and product knowledge to be gained here and a new type of camaraderie we experience via the net. Just be aware that there is a spread of personalities here from the ultra-**** pseudo contractor to seasoned veterans to the totally un-initiated newbie, and just because you read it on line, it ain't necessarily so.

Just build the thing, why don't cha, skip the "analysis-paralysis" and have a good time.

 

[autoist]

hmmmm.....Garage Journal would be a boring place without the indepth descriptions of the various construction projects - plus, I wouldn't have been able to steal some of the nifty ideas of others for my rambling garage without them.

To us, its fun....to you, its a job!

 

[rwhite692]

Agree, many people take the analysis side of their hobbies WAY too far...Not a problem isolated to GJ, tho.

Any message board on any hobby, usually has more than enough participants who take things WAY too seriously and basically get themselves off on all the public posturing, fanboy drivel, chest-pounding, and all the "my way is the ONLY way to do it!!" type of ****.

 

[nate379]

I agree 100% other the OSB formaldahyde thing. Used ALOT of it growing up but my Dad buys it for $1 a sheet. (works at an OSB mill)

All I can figure is that a lot of the people who comment here live in an ideal world that in many cases, manages to skirt the realities of typical building construction and they tend to ignore the more conventional ways that things are done. Not to get on a soapbox, but as a professional contractor with over 40 years of experience, you guys turn a simple construction project into a spiritual quest of sorts. The construction techniques of super insulating, sealing and caulking, wrapping and all of this other new-age hocus pocus typically end up creating a building that appears to be state of the art, when in reality it is a structure that has absolutely no "bandwidth" when it comes to being able to tolerate any failure or degradation of any of it's high tech components, prolonged periods of non-use or insufficient maintenance. Loosely translated, nothing that is being built today is ever gonna make it onto a lovely calendar of antique barns. They simply will disintegrate many years before their old low tech counterparts. Maybe thats not an issue...maybe folks are only looking for a 20 to 30 year service life from these from these structures and then leave them for your kids to tear down or maybe tear them down yourself when they begin to ruin your property value. So, if you insist on foaming and taping yourselves into buildings that are so tight that you measure the air changes in weeks instead of hours, finishing your interior walls with OSB just in case you didn't **** in enough formaldehyde while sheathing the place, research the ultimate heating system that costs so much you will never live to see the payback period over a more conventional arrangement, or installing the perfect floor coating that is sure to make you have a heart attack the minute it chips or scratches... go for it.

On the other hand, Maybe I just don't get it. Maybe GJ is not the large cross section of folks I thought it was.... Maybe it's a hangout for construction and equipment challenged loonies!...people who don't have a life outside of agonizing over the insulation value of a piece of foam about 2 inches by 3 feet on the external perimeter of a stub wall (I'm not making this up). Maybe main-stream hobbyists and DIY'ers don't come here at all? I don't know.

Forgive my rant. There is obviously a wealth of information and product knowledge to be gained here and a new type of camaraderie we experience via the net. Just be aware that there is a spread of personalities here from the ultra-**** pseudo contractor to seasoned veterans to the totally un-initiated newbie, and just because you read it on line, it ain't necessarily so.

Just build the thing, why don't cha, skip the "analysis-paralysis" and have a good time.

 

[tcianci]

Autoist...Point well taken!

 

[hetkind]

I don't know...I just ordered 1k worth of subslab vapor barrier/insulation to reduce the heat loss, from a pole barn I suspect I will pay back the cost in nothing more than preventing rust and condensation on equipment.

As for building R-35 structures, I look heavily at cost benefit.

Howard

 

[nate379]

Depends where you live. R35 here is normal. I have R45 in my ceilings and R25 in the walls.

 

[e-tek]

Depends where you live. R35 here is normal. I have R45 in my ceilings and R25 in the walls.

While it's easy to agree with that rant on some levels, it IS an enthusiast site for crying out loud!!

As for R value, I live in the coldest place on earth and we use R30 ceiling, R20 walls - and rarely do I see 2x4 walls. But if someone wants to overbuild - go for it! Have you ever seen a million-dollar home that was underbuilt??

 

[brownbagg]

but it just a fricken garage

 

[tcianci]

E-tek, While there is no question about having sufficient r values for the climate in which the building is constructed, I guess I got too specific about certain characteristics of the building as opposed to the thought process(or lack of) that the builder takes to get there. While I enjoy the site, some of the convoluted, bass ackwards reasoning coupled with excruciating anality of how these places are put together, goes beyond amusing right to absurd! While you are correct in calling this an enthusiasts site, I honestly believe that many here are in an earnest quest for structural nirvana and it seems like these same people may well spend the balance of their lives second guessing the placement of every freakin nail, switch and light fixture. I do appreciate your comments though and place value in them. After all, anyone who has a wife like yours has got to be a darn smart guy and should be taken seriously!

 

[ddawg16]

but it just a fricken garage

Yea, it's just a garage.....

This 'was' my garage....built back in 52 using what what I assume tcianci calls 'conventional' methods.

The bottom of the walls are below grade...so every time it rained, the garage floor would be flooded.....

The slab was poured without rebar....cracks big enough to for rats to crawl through....

Foundation was about 3" lower on one side as compared to the other...

The attic rafters were barely strong enough to support it's own weight....

Yea...they don't build them like they used to.....

tcianci....what part of the country are you in? I want to make sure I don't stand a chance of hiring you.

While I might agree with a couple of your points.....your statements are pretty condinsending for a newbe......you somewhat remind me of a couple of reporters on MSMBC who make broad statements without backing them up with specific facts.

Not to get on a soapbox, but as a professional contractor with over 40 years of experience, you guys turn a simple construction project into a spiritual quest of sorts.

Because we are NOT professionals we come here for information and advice.....some of use do the garages our selves because of limited funds...others because it's the big boys version of an erector set.

Yea, it's just a garage....maybe some guys take it to extrems that some of us don't understand....but you know what? It's their garage...they can do wha they want.....kinda like a version the 1st amendment....freedom to make the garage the way you want.....just like you have the freedom to comment on this site...of take them elsewhere....

Yep....it's just a garage....

No...I'm not finished.....I have a few more "high tech components", "tape" and "hocus pocus" items to add.......oh....is that OSB I see on the outside? Oh dear......

 

[e-tek]

I do appreciate your comments though and place value in them. After all, anyone who has a wife like yours has got to be a darn smart guy and should be taken seriously!

While I will take that as a compliment, the MIL would likely say otherwise!

 

[nate379]

I'd have to argue that Alaska is colder than Saskatchewan, but I don't have actual data so I could be wrong on that.

Either way my garage is attached to the house so the insulation is the same in the house as well.

Coldest place on earth is Antarctica at -89.2 C or -128.6 F

While it's easy to agree with that rant on some levels, it IS an enthusiast site for crying out loud!!

As for R value, I live in the coldest place on earth and we use R30 ceiling, R20 walls - and rarely do I see 2x4 walls. But if someone wants to overbuild - go for it! Have you ever seen a million-dollar home that was underbuilt??

 

[FunfDreisig]

Yea, it's just a garage.....

This 'was' my garage....built back in 52 using what what I assume tcianci calls 'conventional' methods.

The bottom of the walls are below grade...so every time it rained, the garage floor would be flooded.....

The slab was poured without rebar....cracks big enough to for rats to crawl through....

Foundation was about 3" lower on one side as compared to the other...

The attic rafters were barely strong enough to support it's own weight....

Yea...they don't build them like they used to........

My first garage makes your old one look like the Taj One corner was a foot lower than the opposite corner. We kept a brick in bottom the garbage can so that after a good rain it wouldn't float around inside and bang into the cars. We eventually tore the garage down and replaced it so we could sell the place.

Funf Dreisig

 

[Shocker]

The broad, sweeping statements Tcianci has made are interesting. I don't agree with most of them. It is impossible to tell how long a building, built now, will last. Properly maintaining a modern built building will make it last a long time I am betting.

My brand new shop has what high tech in it? Electricity? Tyvek wrap? Wood? OSB? T-111? Cement? Comp roof? Gutters? Tell me which one of these high tech things is going to cause my shop to fail in 20 years?

Is it my imagination or do quite a few "professionals" come on here and just ***** and moan about how us amateurs do things? Does it just drive them nuts that we are doing great work and are **** about how it turns out and we don't pay them the moon to do a half assed job?

I started out this post just slightly annoyed, but these kinds of comments just chap my hide. I guess us "loonies" and "us without a life" will just have to do without comments like yours.

 

[e-tek]

Sorry, I didn't mean all-time. In Saskatoon SK, in February last year it was colder than it was at the North pole: minus 54C (minus 65F). I'm told it's one of the coldest inhabited places on earth, often surpassing Siberia. But I'm not bragging, I'm complaining (and crying a little too..)

 

[tcianci]

D Dawg, your reply illustrates that you can not tell the difference between conventional construction (conventional in approach, not necessarily material)and poor construction and yet as a senior member you are, I guess more entitled to make stupid comments than anyone else. Many folks on here are truly in need of correct factual information. I read this site every night and am constantly amazed at what is spewed as fact. I totally agree with you and your first amendment comment and I agree that many come here because they are looking for knowledge. Having a garage space of my own and building it out just the way I wanted has always been a dream of mine and I was more than excited to find this site. I kinda thought I was alone in doing this until I found GJ. My garage was built out and furnished about 10 years ago, the structure itself being over 30 years old now, and it does have heat, epoxy floors, all the nice toys right down to the mini blinds on the windows. What it doesn't have are settled walls, cracked floors, a sagging roof, drafts, pests, insufficient wiring and the like. If I were to believe you I guess all the positive and long lasting attributes of my building are just **** luck.
And as far as not standing a chance of ever hiring me, what makes you think that I or any other self respecting crafts person would work for you? Contractors are not at the bottom of the food chain and in fact we have more freedom to work for WHO we want when we want and IF we want than many other professions. I am a contractor by trade and a garage freak and street rod builder by choice.


Oh and Shocker... With the Tyvek, you probably wont even see the 20 year mark.

 

[ddawg16]

D Dawg, your reply illustrates that you can not tell the difference between conventional construction (conventional in approach, not necessarily material)and poor construction and yet as a senior member you are,

How you came to that conclusion totally illudes me....

, I guess more entitled to make stupid comments than anyone else.

No....sarcastic

In 'my' opinion, any criticism without articuable facts is unqualified....or, to put in terms easier to understand.....it's like telling someone they are wrong but not telling them how they are wrong.

I had two contractors come out to quote putting on the shingles of my roof....both licensed and both have been in business for several years....one said I did not need valley flashing....the other did....and I know the inspectors in my area require it....guess who got the job.

Please don't critisize unless you have exact facts and solutions....

 

[tcianci]

Well obviously the one who knew enough about the project to comply with the code.

Now John, I seem to have ruffled your feathers more than what I had expected or anyone Else's for that matter, for that I apologize. What I can not be sorry for is the mis-information that flies through this place like gas through a funnel. I find it odd that the same folks who come here for information (and I assume they desire information that will help them realize the successful completion of their project) are often the same ones who run down any method that they are not familiar with. So I hope to let this thread die. I started it to try to gain some insight into what goes on in the minds of folks who build as novices, how they gather information, process it, and act on it. What I found is a reaction that is common to most any hobby, you have your casual participants and those who take it to extremes. And the more extreme they get, the more bizarre the reasoning for what they do. That plays out just fine in art, and music and the like. Building isn't based on feelings... you either understand the products and principles that go into construction or you don't. It is doubtful that you will have a successful outcome if the latter is true.

 

[Full Size 66]

Wow, the mud is getting everywhere hold on and let me wipe my eyes! Guys you got to understand we are here to talk about GARAGES not who holds the bigger tool, or who knows how to use his tool better! I see where you have to filter your advice and make sure you meet local codes. Other than that you got to just take it easy. Enjoy your "man zones" garages for what they are. Remember you only get one trip on this ride called life!!!

 

[RobSmith]

I live in Australia and I am constantly 'entertained' with this GJ site and the construction methods used in building a garage. Many sheds are way over the top. Good on you ! If you can afford to spend the bucks...do so in the way you want to.
I recently inspected a high dollar, "executive" home, by appointment ! The house had MDF floors, pine skirting and ballistrading and was constructed using compressed fibre beams. I couldn't see the $800,000 value in that. I would rather have a hardwood frame and real timber floors.

 

[sberry]

I agree there can be a lot of mis info here, like any site of this type but it usually gets sorted out in the end, but,,,, some of the biggest hacks I have ever seen are 40 yr contractors.

 

[walrus]

Wouldn't it be better to point out code violations, then to start a thread that whines about what you percieve to be bad building practices? Maybe you can add something to the converstaion around here thats helpful

You'll really be PO'd when I do a R60 ceiling, won't ya?

 

[hetkind]

I have been involved in heavy and industrial construction for 25 years and this is my first swag at building my own "major" structure.

If the structure is for the storage and maintenance of mechanical equipment it needs to be designed one way. However, if the structure will be an extension of your living room, and will be heated/cooled full time then different standards can be applied.

For many people on the list, this is their first attempt at designing their own structure, and their goal is to fix the issues of every other structure they have EVER had. Also, many of the communities of the US, in order to keep property values up have forced the construction of shop, garages, barns and other outbuildings to house level standards.

My goal on my structure is to have a building I can restore and maintain light trucks, cars and motorcycles in the shop area (34x40), weathertight parking with lights, power and compressed air in the second area (30x34) and have finished space above both areas for a mil apartment, and a tavern type area with bar, full kitchen, pingpong table and beer brewing area for the wife.

The overall structure will be a pole barn on a very carefully build pad with excellent drainage. I expect a 50 year life out of the structure Then a new structure can be built on existing pad with existing utilities. The pad and utilities are the big cost drivers.

Howard

 

[1320stang]

tcianci, I tend to agree with you, and not just on the construction part. I see guys saying everything but Snap-On (or insert your favorite brand, but Snap-On is typical) and then they'll ask an automobile related question and I'm thinking, I thought they were a professional mechanic. But they'll know how to polish their wrench or lube their ratchet. This site is sorta at the other end of the spectrum of it's parent, the HAMB.

Now that being said, If I come across some smoking deal on a Snap-On FLSXI-80SPRLOL double throw down ratchet that some guy can't use because it isn't working right and can't trade it to a dealer, I'll know how to take it apart and apply the Red Lube of Love and make it right. There are a lot of people out there that live in a whole different world than I do, I'm scraping to get by every week, no tool trucks for me, no Garage Pak airlines, no down draft paint booths, no lift, no big boy toys really. I've got a 1965 Mustang coupe that I hope I'll be able to restore with/for my 8 year old son that will probably run $15k, and a 1963 Fairlane that I want to turn into a Nostalgia Super Stock car and will probably take $50k to complete, but they'll both be 'right'. I'm sure that's a pittance for most guys on this board, heck I'm 42 and only have about $20k set aside in 401k and other investments, so those projects aren't even back burner, they're still in the cabinet.

 

[rieferman]

Is this topic: Guys are being too over the top with trying to build "perfect" structures

Or is it: If you're not a professional contractor/mechanic/electrician/HVAC etc. you're an idiot and shouldn't ever post an opinion.

I'm not directing that at anyone, and I'm not trying to be "cute".. I'm honestly not sure of the conversation on this one.

 

[hetkind]

Oh, the too much money and not enough common sense people? I might know a few I actually over the years have worn out a snap-on set of 1/2 deep impact sockets, and snap on won't replace them just due to wear out.

I was accused of a neighbor once of keeping my tools too clean and my shop too neat to do real work. He changed his tune after he watched us host our first motorcycle tech day where we basically operated a mutlibrand service bay for a weekend. Then of course, he always appreciated when I could help him get a pita job finished quickly with the correct tool. Then again, I work to aviation standards.

He grew up in a Pontiac/GMC service bay where his dad owned the dealership.

Now I am reduced to rolling in the mud to change the oil until the shop is built...and that would be as soon as the rain stops and the ground dries up.

Howard

tcianci, I tend to agree with you, and not just on the construction part. I see guys saying everything but Snap-On (or insert your favorite brand, but Snap-On is typical) and then they'll ask an automobile related question and I'm thinking, I thought they were a professional mechanic. But they'll know how to polish their wrench or lube their ratchet. This site is sorta at the other end of the spectrum of it's parent, the HAMB.

Now that being said, If I come across some smoking deal on a Snap-On FLSXI-80SPRLOL double throw down ratchet that some guy can't use because it isn't working right and can't trade it to a dealer, I'll know how to take it apart and apply the Red Lube of Love and make it right. There are a lot of people out there that live in a whole different world than I do, I'm scraping to get by every week, no tool trucks for me, no Garage Pak airlines, no down draft paint booths, no lift, no big boy toys really. I've got a 1965 Mustang coupe that I hope I'll be able to restore with/for my 8 year old son that will probably run $15k, and a 1963 Fairlane that I want to turn into a Nostalgia Super Stock car and will probably take $50k to complete, but they'll both be 'right'. I'm sure that's a pittance for most guys on this board, heck I'm 42 and only have about $20k set aside in 401k and other investments, so those projects aren't even back burner, they're still in the cabinet.

 

[autoist]

I'd have to argue that Alaska is colder than Saskatchewan, but I don't have actual data so I could be wrong on that.

Either way my garage is attached to the house so the insulation is the same in the house as well.

Coldest place on earth is Antarctica at -89.2 C or -128.6 F

Ah, but Palmer? I've been there several times (in summer & winter)...nice weather...real close to the Matanuska Valley where all the veggies & cattle are grown.....no where near as cold as Fairbanks!

 

[mk3rattlebox]

Well my take on this is its different when its your own personal project, vs justanotherjobsite that you are working on.

I've been in trades for 15 years, and believe me, I've seen my fair share of hack carpenters / general contractors.

Maybe after 40 years you don't give a **** anymore, and are just plain burnt out.

Construction methods/ requirements/ code changes all the time. I'd think that someone not familliar with construction methods would want to hire the guy that is most capable of doing the work, instead of the "good enough" attitude.

 

[Schtauffer]

Have you ever seen a million-dollar home that was underbuilt??

All the time. Houses at that level usually sell because of the nice lights and countertops and jacuzzis and junk, not because of the quality of construction. Corners are cut pretty hard on foundation, framing, insulation, and roof, the things that aren't seen/handled.

 

[mag99]

Maybe instead of criticizing, it would be more helpful if you were to post a detailed plan and procedure for building a garage YOUR way, to help all of us "novices"?

 

[sammerdog]

...... Loosely translated, nothing that is being built today is ever gonna make it onto a lovely calendar of antique barns. They simply will disintegrate many years before their old low tech counterparts. Maybe thats not an issue.....

Antique barns, huh? Yeah, when I drive through the countryside, seems like about three quarters of the antique barns are weather worn and falling in on themselves, maybe a quarter or so are still standing and functional.

I guess this site is just our quest to figure out how to build similar to the 25% good structures by sharing what worked, what didn't work, and what trends are popular in certain geographic areas.

Just a stab in the dark here - tcianci, you're from the East Coast aren't you?

 

[ovilla]

tcianci - Keep in mind too that folks are spending their hard earned money on most likely their second biggest investment besides their homes. A lot of folks like to discuss some of these topics to death simply to get an understanding of what is thought of as "normal" building codes for the different parts of the US. It is nice to see the differences in construction even just throughout the US (and especially in other countries). Sometimes it doesn't make sense why someone is researching and talking about something like insulation to the nth degree, but I bet they're in the process of insulating a new structure and simply want to gather as much data as possible so they can make an informed decision (whether they hire a contractor to do it or they do it themselves).

Finally, simply building the way things have always been done is a waste of money. Why do you think people now use house wrap, different types of insulation, conduit, flashing, and numerous other products? It's the innovation of products to address historical construction issues that will help homes last even longer. More educated consumers/builders will be the first to take advantage of newer methods/materials. That's why we should all be thankful that there's forums like this where people can have discussions on a smorgasboard of topics. I'd hate to only have to depend on the advice from some clerk at Depot or Lowes or the 2-3 bids that you were lucky to get.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Not to get on a soapbox, but as a professional contractor with over 40 years of experience, you guys turn a simple construction project into a spiritual quest of sorts.

You're looking at building a garage from the point of view of a contractor, not from the point of view of someone who's doing it for their own enjoyment. So what if someone wants to go over the top with their garage build...it's their money and it makes them happy. Other people blow all their money on playing golf or going to Vegas, at least the people here have something to show for it afterwards.

 

[boiler7904]

Maybe instead of criticizing, it would be more helpful if you were to post a detailed plan and procedure for building a garage YOUR way, to help all of us "novices"?

It would be interesting to see some examples of his work and the planning that he puts into each project.

 

[sberry]

tcianci - Keep in mind too that folks are spending their hard earned money on most likely their second biggest investment besides their homes. A lot of folks like to discuss some of these topics to death simply to get an understanding of what is thought of as "normal" building codes for the different parts of the US. It is nice to see the differences in construction even just throughout the US (and especially in other countries). Sometimes it doesn't make sense why someone is researching and talking about something like insulation to the nth degree, but I bet they're in the process of insulating a new structure and simply want to gather as much data as possible so they can make an informed decision (whether they hire a contractor to do it or they do it themselves).

Finally, simply building the way things have always been done is a waste of money. Why do you think people now use house wrap, different types of insulation, conduit, flashing, and numerous other products? It's the innovation of products to address historical construction issues that will help homes last even longer. More educated consumers/builders will be the first to take advantage of newer methods/materials. That's why we should all be thankful that there's forums like this where people can have discussions on a smorgasboard of topics. I'd hate to only have to depend on the advice from some clerk at Depot or Lowes or the 2-3 bids that you were lucky to get.

Thats pretty well written.

 

[twostory]

I see GJ as a place for non-professional to discuss how/what/why to build a garage.

There are plenty of contractor forums for the professional to discuss what they do. The problem with the contractor forums is they do not seem to like us "non professional" asking simple questions on how to build something correctly (I have felt their attitude more than once)

I have never seen that type of attitude on GJ. That is one reason I enjoy reading GJ.

Tcianci may not know, but many of us build our own garages, so the only thing we really think about is material cost.

Our labor is free to us and so what if we spend 40 hours on the house wrap job. We would probably never pay someone for a 40 hour job on house wrapping, but who care how much of our time it took?

I disagree that us non-professional can not build a good structure. I my case, I exceeded the minimum requirements on my foundation (extra rebar & concrete = $500). I used 2x6 walls in Georgia. Could have done 2x4, but the cost was only $100 more for 2x6. I do not waste money, but will spend extra when I think it will make a difference.

I paid a company to spray R38 cellulose in my attic, this cost $50 more than the recommended R30. Would a contractor tell me it cost $50 for insulation? Probably not, he would have said, oh no that will be $500 for increased insulation in your attic.

My point? By doing things myself, it turns out material cost is very minor to get major benefits.

 

[Mattlt]

I think you can sum it up by realizing that some people build their garages for show, while others build them to actually work in.

Would I ever put diamond plate on my walls and tiles on the floor? No. Would a little "bling" be nice? Sure. It all comes down to priorities.

It's their money...

 

[2level]

Tcianci
Can you elaborate on the 20-30 yr service life / disintegration on some of these garages?
Especially your comment...." with Tyvek you probably won't even see the 20 year mark.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Well, I too am a 40 year contractor and I am not going to say a thing.
I just enjoy coming onto this site and learning new things.
You see, here in New Zealand we do things differently, so I can pick up new ideas from this site whether it is from long time proffessionals or rank amateur DIY guys.

Thanks for that.

ps. Threads like this one are also very entertaining.