I am in the process of digging the trench between my house and detached garage to bury my power feed line, as well as Ethernet and coax if I ever want to put a desk top computer and/or tv. I plan on running the power feed in a 1-1/4" non-metallic conduit, and the Ethernet and coax in a separate 3/4" non-metallic conduit. will the type of Ethernet cable matter when buried in conduit? I know there are specific types of Ethernet cable that are inside and others that are outside, but wasn't sure if it matter when buried inside of conduit
buried ethernet cable
- Thread starter that-guy
- Start date
kd3pc
Well-known member
You will need rated cable for conduit...in the old days it was plenum rated, not sure what the current stuff is...they make a siamese cable that has RG for video and Cat5 paired in the same jacket...
others will chime in with current specs...
others will chime in with current specs...
AffableCurmudgeon
Well-known member
You don't say where you are so I don't know what temperatures you will experience. I would suggest using a PE rated cable for protection against cold.
Also, be mindful of the total device to device distance of 328 feet for cat 6.
Also, be mindful of the total device to device distance of 328 feet for cat 6.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
The cable has to be rated for use in wet areas since the conduit is below grade.
stelthy77
Well-known member
My recommendation, just get the burial rated, gel filled stuff. It will cost less than having to make another run because the conduit flooded and you snagged a hole in the wire jacket while pulling... That said, if you already have enough regular/in-wall cable for something else, just run it and be careful, chances are it will outlast the equipment attached to it.
Also, as was stated your TOTAL run including wall plates and patch cables, between electronic devices (switches, computers, etc) should be less than 328 feet.
One more thing, when terminating it at either end, I recommend you use a wall plate or patch panel; a long copper cable run can and will shorten in the cold, and the copper can pull away from a crimp connector. Ask me how I know about this...
Also, as was stated your TOTAL run including wall plates and patch cables, between electronic devices (switches, computers, etc) should be less than 328 feet.
One more thing, when terminating it at either end, I recommend you use a wall plate or patch panel; a long copper cable run can and will shorten in the cold, and the copper can pull away from a crimp connector. Ask me how I know about this...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
U should use gel filled aka flooded cable.
Wear gloves when terminating and have rags on hand. Its messy.
Plenum rated cable is for above ceiling spaces that are used for air handling.
Plenum has nothing to do with beliw ground use.
And siamese cable comes in several different types- RGxx coax and 2 cnd power cable molded together or ethernet and 2 cnd power cable molded together.
kwschumm
Well-known member
On any underground data line installation of a surge suppressor is highly recommended for copper. Lightning strikes can obviously cause failure of devices.
If it were me I'd spend the extra money for an ethernet isolator that will provide complete electrical isolation (better than surge suppressors).
If it were me I'd spend the extra money for an ethernet isolator that will provide complete electrical isolation (better than surge suppressors).
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stelthy77
Well-known member
Interesting thought. But wouldn't the "non-metallic" conduit insulate line enough to keep electrical surges from reaching anything important?
MFortie
Well-known member
Do yourself a favor and run 1-1/4" for both power and low voltage...
bruincounselor
Well-known member
Are you suggesting 2 separate runs?
rlitman
Well-known member
Non-metallic conduit is far more conductive to lightning than the miles of air it passes through. I believe the concern here is of a direct, or near hit on the conduit.
kwschumm
Well-known member
Non-metallic conduit would be worse than metal in terms of induced noise. Metal would provide some shielding, although it could be problematic between buildings with different ground potentials.
People always argue with me about this. There is no doubt that people have ignored surge/isolation and had no trouble. Differential signalling in ethernet pairs is very robust and generally noise-immune as long as voltage levels stay within specs (approx +/- 14VDC IIRC).
Years ago I worked on building control systems at a large resort in Arizona and we lost more than a dozen NICs and a few switches the first monsoon season. After the installation of isolators the hardware carnage stopped. So I'm a believer.
rlitman
Well-known member
What would I suggest?
I'd suggest that if the run has a significant underground distance, and a chance of being struck, then your best choice is to use fiber between the two buildings.
The upside to this is that fiber doesn't need to be flooded, so you don't need to work with that nasty underground ethernet cable.
Then put a media converter at each end. Something like this would work:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003AVRLZI/?tag=atomicindus08-20
But it depends on your situation. The run from my house to my garage is under 10'. That, and the conduit is a continuous piece of PVC buried in concrete. With no water concerns, I just used plain indoor Cat 5e cable.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Lightning could hit the house trael through a switch or router in the house, then travel down the ethernet going to the garage.
Yes, its a great idea. Easier to do it now than have to redig.
Underground conduit always gets water in it. Its inevitable. Even with both ends sealed theres always a chance of condensation getting in there.
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kwschumm
Well-known member
I have no experience with commercial isolators, we had EEs who designed and built our own using opto-isolators although other technologies would also work. A quick google/amazon search showed some gigabit rated isolators that run ~$200 each (need one on each end). For that money I'd run fiber.
rlitman
Well-known member
UNDERGROUND conduit always gets water in it, and may eventually fill in spots. In my case, I used a trick of uneven ground levels to have my "underground" conduit exit into the garage horizontally above ground, without any elbows. It also has a slight slope that would ensure that any water that did get in, would drip out. But this only works if you can control the exact slope of the pipe over its entire length (simple for an 8' run, more difficult for longer runs). Like I said, my situation is kind of unique, as are most...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
rlitman
Well-known member
Well, let's see. I can get a gigabit media converter for $50 (each, but you'd need 2). And a patch cable for under $20. That leaves $80 for ???
Or I can get a 50m fiber for a little over $50
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000AZK33/?tag=atomicindus08-20
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
U still need the media converters with the fiber.
couch67
Well-known member
Is Wifi a solution for you? I get good signal at my shed which is ~130 feet from the router. Its almost line of sight so that really helps the signal.
While completely renovating our older home back in the day, I 'future proofed' it by installing close to 1500 feet of cat 5 cable throughout, to a home run in the basement. I probably use about 200 feet of it, the rest of the house is served by wifi. I guess cable is a different story though...
couch
While completely renovating our older home back in the day, I 'future proofed' it by installing close to 1500 feet of cat 5 cable throughout, to a home run in the basement. I probably use about 200 feet of it, the rest of the house is served by wifi. I guess cable is a different story though...
couch
jbwilkins
Well-known member
In my neck of the woods the cable provider (Comcast)uses apps (Browser, IOS, etc) to provide video on any device....as long as I'm on my personal wifi network I can watch any channel that's in my subscription....I plan on using an old laptop to stream TV in my shop.....
We're quickly getting to the point that cat 5/6 and coax aren't a requirement for data/video....And with the new regulations the FCC is introducing requiring cable providers to ditch the propriety boxes I see the App solution becoming more prevalent.
We're quickly getting to the point that cat 5/6 and coax aren't a requirement for data/video....And with the new regulations the FCC is introducing requiring cable providers to ditch the propriety boxes I see the App solution becoming more prevalent.
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dave89iroc
Well-known member
yes, the whole point of the media converters is to convert ethernet to fiber(and fiber to ethernet)
Just use an underground rated Cat 6 cable. I used Underground Cat 5 between my house and barn (about 300ft) 10 years ago and it still works great and was not put in pipe. Lots of expensive solutions suggested but for what you are looking for you will be fine.
rlitman
Well-known member
Direct burial is fine, if you NEVER plan to change it. But the biggest expense in trenching a line is the trench itself, not what goes in it. After that, if there's ANY chance you'll want to pull something different in the future, conduit makes much more sense.
Yes. I guess I wasn't too clear. My first thought was that you could buy a short patch cable and put two media converters back to back, and save $80 over buying a $200 optocoupler. BUT, the optocoupler only protects equipment behind it. If you're worried about a strike on a buried line, you'd want an optocoupler on BOTH sides of the buried line.
So, my second thought was that you could skip that short patch cable, buy a 50m fiber patch, and run the pre-made fiber through the conduit (just be especially careful pulling it since patch cables are NOT designed for pulling), and just use a media converter on each end.
And at $55 for a 50m fiber patch cable, you're in the same ballpark as a short spool of underground cat6 cable.
there appears to be a lot of mixed messages in here, I do however like the debate. as I said in my OP, I will be running the coax and ether in the same conduit, and the power feed in its own. the run underground will be exactly 53' before coming out of the ground and onto the side of the garage. it appears that even in conduit it will be susceptible to "some" moisture, so a cable rated for outdoor will be pretty much mandatory. I also intend to pull my cable at the same time I am joining my 10' lengths of conduit to make my life a lot easier than trying to pull cable after the fact, and hopefully decrease my possibility of damaging any of my cable.
also, I live in Virginia, so it rarely ever gets below freezing in the dead of winter, so I'm unsure what part that will play in all of this. the trench will be approximately 18" down
also, I live in Virginia, so it rarely ever gets below freezing in the dead of winter, so I'm unsure what part that will play in all of this. the trench will be approximately 18" down
thetrillionaire
Member
Direct burial cable in conduit is fine. As a network engineer by trade I tend to stay away from WIFI unless you have commercial grade equipment just my 2 cents. I like the reliability of the cable especially when it's available.
dave*99
Well-known member
Don't do this. Assemble your conduit and pull the wire afterwards. If you properly limit the bends and size the conduit properly it will be easy to pull the wires. Now and in the future if need arises.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Induced noise? It's in the ground. Unless the data conduit is right next to the power conduit, metal vs PVC is not going to make any difference.
All the NIC cards I've seen use optical isolator's in at the RJ45 jack.
Plenum vs standard cable....as wylie correctly pointed out, it has to do with running in walls...nothing to do with below ground or wet conditions. To be specific, plenum cable has a different sheath with a much higher temp rating and out gassing spec. It's designed to not 'carry' a fire if it starts in the wall...or kill you with the smoke from it. Basically, you use plenum cable going between floors....but for horizontal runs....or in conduit...regular Cat.
If it was me....I'd be using a decent quality Cat6 cable. Cat6 has slightly thicker wire and more twists (higher data rate) than Cat 5 or 5E
rlitman
Well-known member
Agreed regarding noise.
Ethernet NIC cards are magnetically isolated, NOT optically. They are supposed to provide isolation to several thousand volts though that is not necessarily always the case as the isolation is there for the balanced signal to work between devices at different ground potentials, and not necessarily to protect against voltage spikes and the like. I can't say I've had equipment damaged through the ethernet port, though I've also not tried my luck with that.
I don't understand the push so many people have towards Cat 6 and above.
Cat 5 generally supports gigabit ethernet. Cat 5e universally does.
Cat 6 supports a crappy version of 10-gigabit, but when you do the math on the copper adapters, it comes out cheaper to run 10g in fiber anyway.
The way I see it, Cat 6 doesn't provide ANY guarantee of future proofing, so what's the point?
kwschumm
Well-known member
Regarding noise, yep, power conduit is the issue. People often run data cables in parallel to, or even in the same, conduit as power and then say it has no effect. Instrumentation will tell a different story.
Hmm. I've never seen a NIC that had optical isolation except for industrial systems, like PLCs and such.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Isolation? You are correct....people were talking 'optical' couplers and I was thinking 'isolation'......
As for Cat5 vs Cat6.....I'll have to disagree they are the same....
http://www.cablinginstall.com/articles/2014/12/cat5e-cat6-cat6a-guest-blog.html
Basically, for short distances...yea, no real difference. But if I was going to do POE and/or go a long distance...I'd rather use Cat6.
for mine, it will be a 53' straight shot from the basement wall, then a long sweeping 90* up to surface and tie into the side of the garage and into the wall. I cease to see the reason why pulling through my wire as I go along is a bad idea
MFortie
Well-known member
I'll add my two-cents worth for category type.
I just got back from a telecommunications conference in San Antonio and one of the presentations covered power over ethernet (PoE).
The newest PoE standard (802.3bt: 4PPoE Type 3 & 4) lays the groundwork for 100W power over Ethernet cable. 100W power will run LED lighting, video (television), CCTV devices, thin clients, etc. (Here's a snapshot: http://blog.leviton.com/cabling-and-connectivity-power-over-ethernet)
The essential take-away was to start specifying CAT6A cabling for future 4PPoE applications. (Although, Superior Essex has a new CAT5e+ cable specifically designed for 4PPoE.)
While I was somewhat convinced wireless was going to overtake structured wiring solutions (which is what I design for a living), the 4PPoE applications have laid that thought to rest. I now envision a future where a room will have an array of RJ45 outlets, possible in lieu of standard AC outlets, to power devices.
Obviously, 4PPoE won't power motor loads (I like to use vacuum cleaners as an example, but my wife continues to point out cordless vacuums
), but for the above mentioned applications I think 4PPoE is the wave of the future.
Convergence has always been a buzzword in our industry and over the years we've seen building management systems, voice (VoIP), CCTV, multmedia, etc. all climbing onto the IP network. Power is just another player jumping onto the data network.
Food for thought on planning for the future...
I just got back from a telecommunications conference in San Antonio and one of the presentations covered power over ethernet (PoE).
The newest PoE standard (802.3bt: 4PPoE Type 3 & 4) lays the groundwork for 100W power over Ethernet cable. 100W power will run LED lighting, video (television), CCTV devices, thin clients, etc. (Here's a snapshot: http://blog.leviton.com/cabling-and-connectivity-power-over-ethernet)
The essential take-away was to start specifying CAT6A cabling for future 4PPoE applications. (Although, Superior Essex has a new CAT5e+ cable specifically designed for 4PPoE.)
While I was somewhat convinced wireless was going to overtake structured wiring solutions (which is what I design for a living), the 4PPoE applications have laid that thought to rest. I now envision a future where a room will have an array of RJ45 outlets, possible in lieu of standard AC outlets, to power devices.
Obviously, 4PPoE won't power motor loads (I like to use vacuum cleaners as an example, but my wife continues to point out cordless vacuums
), but for the above mentioned applications I think 4PPoE is the wave of the future.Convergence has always been a buzzword in our industry and over the years we've seen building management systems, voice (VoIP), CCTV, multmedia, etc. all climbing onto the IP network. Power is just another player jumping onto the data network.
Food for thought on planning for the future...
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
Assuming it's 10 foot long sections of PVC conduit glued together, you stand a good chance of getting glue on the wire and then getting everything all stuck together. You also have to be careful about getting dirt inside the conduit, which could cause abrasion on the wire insulation.
Really, that's a short length overall. It will probably be faster to install the conduit and then pull the cable later, than trying to thread it through each section one at a time.
thetrillionaire
Member
I'll add my two-cents worth for category type.
I just got back from a telecommunications conference in San Antonio and one of the presentations covered power over ethernet (PoE).
The newest PoE standard (802.3bt: 4PPoE Type 3 & 4) lays the groundwork for 100W power over Ethernet cable. 100W power will run LED lighting, video (television), CCTV devices, thin clients, etc. (Here's a snapshot: http://blog.leviton.com/cabling-and-connectivity-power-over-ethernet)
The essential take-away was to start specifying CAT6A cabling for future 4PPoE applications. (Although, Superior Essex has a new CAT5e+ cable specifically designed for 4PPoE.)
While I was somewhat convinced wireless was going to overtake structured wiring solutions (which is what I design for a living), the 4PPoE applications have laid that thought to rest. I now envision a future where a room will have an array of RJ45 outlets, possible in lieu of standard AC outlets, to power devices.
Obviously, 4PPoE won't power motor loads (I like to use vacuum cleaners as an example, but my wife continues to point out cordless vacuums
Convergence has always been a buzzword in our industry and over the years we've seen building management systems, voice (VoIP), CCTV, multmedia, etc. all climbing onto the IP network. Power is just another player jumping onto the data network.
Food for thought on planning for the future...
I don't think the average consumer will ever have a need for 4 wire POE the average consumer won't be able to afford a switch capable of providing power to all those jacks. There will never be a situation where rj45 jacks replace electrical outlets.
Cate5e is what I ran in the home I just built
ddawg16
Well-known member
I never thought I would need a bunch of USB charging ports in my house.
I now have enough USB charging ports spread out in 4 rooms to charge about 10 devices.....and it's almost not enough
dave*99
Well-known member
rlitman
Well-known member
I have a hard time with the unqualified "never" in that statement, but I'm inclined to agree. I just don't see a future with big growth in the market of hardwired ethernet devices in the home. Everything seems headed towards one wireless technology or another. And POE is just too limited in bandwidth.
I see a future where the only wired infrastructure may be the uplink to the wireless access points. I guess you could power those off POE, but if you can get by with just one central AP then it's moot, because the POE hub (in this case I mean hub, as in "hub and spoke topology" and not hub as in ethernet) will still need a power source too.
One thing that comes to mind would be a shorter-range, lower-power, higher-bandwidth wireless networking technology becoming more prevalent. If we were to miniaturize the "cell" size to say a room (perhaps 10-100M range, more like Bluetooth, instead of WiFi's greater range), then perhaps this sort of thing might be useful to link each room's AP to the "hub". But WiFi has been so widely adopted BECAUSE of the simplicity of one AP connecting an entire house. Adding this sort of infrastructural complexity I believe will relegate these type of short range wireless technologies to only peer-to-peer duty.
In an office setting perhaps this could make more sense though. I could potentially see a future with two POE ports handling a typical cubicle without the need for any other electrical infrastructure. 200W is cutting it pretty tight for a phone and small form factor terminal, but still seems within the realm of possibility.
However, wiring cubicles for 120V is something that office furniture manufacturers make pretty simple. And one could always select a wireless or even powerline technology instead to get bandwidth to the cubicle.
So, what's all the point of POE? IMNSHO, it's just an end-run around paying an electrician to do his job. Sometimes it's helpful (such as in wiring an IP camera or an office phone with a single connection), but outside of that limited scope, it's more of a novelty than anything game changing.