Buying a lathe

[Farmer888]

I've wanted to learn about machining, Mostly for simple stuff such as bushings and turning pins etc for projects. Been looking for A used lathe but not really many that seem like decent deal. Right now I'm not really limited by space

I found a 12x36 "king industrial" which I beleive is the same as a g4003 grizzly import. Is it chinese or taiwan? It hasn't been used much at all, wants $4000 cad so $3k usd for it. A bit more than I'd like to spend as realize tooling will cost lots as well. Says it coms with extra tooling but not sure what.
Seems like it would work for someone wanting to do it as a hobby, but don't want to be frustrated with a subpar machine

And a king 10x22 for $2k.. Cheaper to get into but seems like not that great of a machine from some research I've done. Maybe too small to grow into?

Standard modern 9 inch utiliathe for $3k with some tooling. Made in canada so I Like that.

 

[solo machinist]

I have 40 yrs being a machinist. The King and Utiliathe both look like solid machines. I would look at the tooling that comes with each one, it does get expensive buying tooling. Most of the work will be done close to the chuck so a longer bed will hardly get used.
The more tooling you have up front the less you need to buy. Read outs are nice too.
My first lathe was small (cheap) and I quickly out grew it.

 

[Maui]

There's this Logan bench top lathe for sale in upstate NY if you want to cross over the border: https://rochester.craigslist.org/tls/d/webster-logan-metal-lathe/7581956768.html

 

[cannuck]

The Grizzly 12x36 at 2 HP, #5 taper in headstock, #3 in tailstock and 1000 lbs. is a pretty good starter tool Much nicer being gear change instead of belts and being modern Asian, should come with both metric and US back gears (VERY important). Only thing I don't like is spindle bore under 1.5" so you can't throw a piece of round stock that size deep into the chuck. Get used to the idea you are going to spend money on tooling and take whatever it comes with to get started and learn enough to figure out what you are going to need for your particular use.

 

[Farmer888]

I have 40 yrs being a machinist. The King and Utiliathe both look like solid machines. I would look at the tooling that comes with each one, it does get expensive buying tooling. Most of the work will be done close to the chuck so a longer bed will hardly get used.
The more tooling you have up front the less you need to buy. Read outs are nice too.
My first lathe was small (cheap) and I quickly out grew it.

Thanks, I'd hate to get something that I outgrow too quick or regret. Been looking on and off for a while but haven't pulled the trigger yet

 

[solo machinist]

I bought my new 14x40 lathe from Precision Mathews. It has a 2" bore with DRO's
Most lathes I've used were only 1 7/16 bore. It was a lot of extra setup to turn a large shaft.
I saved for a year to buy something new, at the time it cost me 6500.00, everything has gone up.
I can spend hours in the shop, thinking, planning, drawing, then machining.
It's funny you mention making bushings. Our mower needed a bushing, cost was 7.00. WHAT! 7.00, nope. I did make it at work.
I told my wife if I had my own lathe at home I could make one and more. She still jokes about that bushing.

 

[bctexas]

Here's a page that deals with how to evaluate a used lathe, and why a klunker may not be a bad way to start out:

Lathe Milling machine shaper collet parts

Top Quality Metalworking Machinery and machine tools.

www.mermac.com

I started out with a 1936 vintage 9 inch South Bend that pretty much fell into my lap for $400. I spent a lot of time cleaning and refurbing, and some more $ on tooling but I learned a ton, had lots of fun and even made some useful parts on the worn out old machine. A couple years ago I sold it and bought a new 12x36 from Precision Matthews. While I learned a ton on the old South Bend, the new machine is much faster and easier to use.

Hope you find what you are looking for - machining is great fun!

 

[ItsNemo]

Try the https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/ forum for more Canadian advice and to catch good deals on used equipment...the King is one of the million chinese clones, I'm pretty sure I saw it on marketplace, it's not a terrible deal, the tooling was minimal, but $4k for that machine is reasonable.

 

[BarrelRoll]

I have that same lathe with US General or whatever stickers harbor freight had put on it. I haven't used it a ton though it's a decent lathe for the money/ size. After using bigger lathes at work it was about the smallest lathe I'd be somewhat happy with at home. My mill is a little grizzly with a VFD, going from a geared head machine to a VFD controlled little machine is very frustrating. I didn't realize it was as heavy as it is, it's a chore to move it around.

 

[Farmer888]

Here's a page that deals with how to evaluate a used lathe, and why a klunker may not be a bad way to start out:

Lathe Milling machine shaper collet parts

Top Quality Metalworking Machinery and machine tools.

www.mermac.com

I started out with a 1936 vintage 9 inch South Bend that pretty much fell into my lap for $400. I spent a lot of time cleaning and refurbing, and some more $ on tooling but I learned a ton, had lots of fun and even made some useful parts on the worn out old machine. A couple years ago I sold it and bought a new 12x36 from Precision Matthews. While I learned a ton on the old South Bend, the new machine is much faster and easier to use.

Hope you find what you are looking for - machining is great fun!

Yeah I probably would have started with something like the south bend but here they are all priced starting at like $1800 and up.. for $500 i'd probably pick one up to learn on play around with.

How is the precision Mathews? Happy with that size?

 

[bctexas]

Yeah I probably would have started with something like the south bend but here they are all priced starting at like $1800 and up.. for $500 i'd probably pick one up to learn on play around with.

How is the precision Mathews? Happy with that size?

It's a model PM-1236. I'm really happy with it. I learn something every time I use it. Since the heavily worn South Bend and the new PM are the only two lathes I have ever used, I don't suppose I'm really qualified to comment on this machine compared to the other machines on the market. But it has done everything I have tried to do, and I can get precision under .001 if I take my time. I've tried cutting threads, with some success - it takes some practice.

As for size, the PM has a "gap bed". The top of the first 9 inches of the bed under the chuck can be removed so it can swing 17 1/2 inches for a short distance. I haven't tried that yet. I did hit the max length once. A buddy of mine restores Model As, and needed a brake relay rod turned after he welded up a worn pivot surface. It took every inch of the bed. I'll attach a pic. I think this size lathe is all I will ever want.

All of the reviews I have read about PM have been favorable, as has been my experience. Somehow Fed Ex managed to separate the three cartons the lathe shipped in, misplacing the two containing the base. A call to PM and a new base was shipped the next day. The lamp in the flex arm failed a few months ago, and they shipped me a new one under warranty.

Good luck in your search!

 

[American Locomotive]

Do you have any friends that are machinists that could accompany you to check out a machine? One that knows how to use a dial indicator and knows what to check for?

The reality is, a lot (if not most?) old lathes in people's home shops or basements are already living their 3rd or 4th "life", as such, they are usually very worn out. I can tell you from experience that a beat up worn out machine can make things very difficult for a new machinist. Every cut you'll make will chatter for no reason, dimensions will be all over the place, and it will all be very frustrating. Experienced machinists have the skills and ability to work around their machine's faults - newbies, not so much.

I'm not saying you need a brand new machine, but it would be helpful to have someone tag along who can tell the difference between a complete basketcase and something that just needs a little love.

 

[RoninB4]

Buying machinery starts with the work envelope and how large your intended pieces are. If you're only making bushings and pins I don't see the need to buy a lathe as large as a 12x36. I was a toolmaker for decades and rarely needed a lathe that large unless I was making a shaft (bed length) or a flange (swing). Most of the work only required a 10x24 to get things done. If you have agricultural implements in regular use then perhaps you'll want a larger size lathe. Long shafts and flanges can always be sent out, paying for size that isn't utilized is wasted money.

As for considering a smaller lathe to be a waste of money, I don't regard it that way. I kept my crappy, tinkertoy Chi-Wan lathe when I sold my larger industrial quality lathe so I could move to another state. I have a well made German lathe now but still use the tiny lathe for secondary operations (de-burr, chamfer, polishing, etc.) A larger lathe on small parts is often a rather clumsy affair.

I always advocate getting a better/larger machine than the cheap **** from China but you're new to this and might not even like machining at all. Get something smaller to see if you even like machining before committing to a heavy, expensive, machine you may not like. Save the money for a better deal on better machinery, it's out there if you look long enough. A small, used Chi-Wan lathe that's ready to use shouldn't cost more than $200 or so. Cheap Chi-Wan machinery (regardless of size) will need a replacement part at some point, doubt the company will be in business when that happens. Logan and some other name brand machinery are still in business and parts are available.

 

[Farmer888]

Do you have any friends that are machinists that could accompany you to check out a machine? One that knows how to use a dial indicator and knows what to check for?

The reality is, a lot (if not most?) old lathes in people's home shops or basements are already living their 3rd or 4th "life", as such, they are usually very worn out. I can tell you from experience that a beat up worn out machine can make things very difficult for a new machinist. Every cut you'll make will chatter for no reason, dimensions will be all over the place, and it will all be very frustrating. Experienced machinists have the skills and ability to work around their machine's faults - newbies, not so much.

I'm not saying you need a brand new machine, but it would be helpful to have someone tag along who can tell the difference between a complete basketcase and something that just needs a little love.

I do have a friend that knows more about it than I do. My grandfather was a machinist but unfortunately has been gone for a while and I was too young to be interested in this or appreciate his knowledge.

I'd have no problems going with a newer import machine if It was going to be decent for a home machine, as far as not being worn out and accurate enough for anything i'd need.
Just somewhat Leary on Chinese stuff hoping for Taiwan.

 

[Farmer888]

Try the https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/ forum for more Canadian advice and to catch good deals on used equipment...the King is one of the million chinese clones, I'm pretty sure I saw it on marketplace, it's not a terrible deal, the tooling was minimal, but $4k for that machine is reasonable.

I was in contact with him and he said it's sold. Listing still up though.

I did contact the king 10x22 has someone else interested, I was offering $1500 he said $1600 min.
I thought maybe as a earning lathe It could still be ok?

 

[ItsNemo]

I was in contact with him and he said it's sold. Listing still up though.

I did contact the king 10x22 has someone else interested, I was offering $1500 he said $1600 min.
I thought maybe as a earning lathe It could still be ok?

Anything but the mini lathes are ok for learning on...no you won't be able to take as much depth of cut, no you won't be able to hold as precise tolerances as easily, no you won't be able to fit large work pieces, and yes the lack of change gears will slow you down, but honestly...they still turn metal in the end. I have the Craftex CX-701 which is a 12x28 (though more like an 11"), so somewhere in between the two you've looked at...it's plenty of machine for my purposes so far. $1600 for the King 10x22 isn't too bad of a price, just make sure you get all the pieces with it and make sure the ways aren't destroyed.

 

[nickelTwin]

I was in the same boat as you about 15 years ago. No machining background, but needed a lathe for a project. I looked around and couldn't find anything decent I could afford.

I bought a 9 x 20 cheapo lathe on sale with plans to sell it and upgrade as my skills improved and thinking if I started needing to make larger parts I would get a bigger, better lathe.

Well, 15 years later I still have that cheapo lathe. Best thing I did was buying that lathe. I've learned a lot about making parts on the lathe right away, and have made many parts over the years.

With some tuning this little lathe makes acceptable parts for me. It turns out most of the parts I've needed were able to be made on this little lathe.

The learning experience that I got from this little lathe was worth it.

I've considered a bigger used lathe over the years, just haven't come across a good one yet that I could afford.

I'll bet I've used my lathe at least every month since I gotton it.

I've learned how useful tool a lathe is even for a home shop.

I also now think that most any lathe is better than no lathe.

 

[alfadan]

Thats a good size. Even if you outgrow it, you always sell it. My 11x36 logan was "free". If something is too big for it, I'm not sure I want to work on it!

 

[wrenchr]

Some day I want a vertical mill and a lathe. Maybe one of those combo deals. Hobbyist / vise stuff.

 

[ItsNemo]

Some day I want a vertical mill and a lathe. Maybe one of those combo deals. Hobbyist / vise stuff.

Avoid the combos....I thought the same thing when I started looking a few years back, but having both machines now I completely understand why you wouldn't want a combo one.

 

[wrenchr]

Avoid the combos....I thought the same thing when I started looking a few years back, but having both machines now I completely understand why you wouldn't want a combo one.

Yup, I'm not even close to being able to do anything. it is going to be an expensive endeavor when I do. My garage will be added on and then I can start. But your feedback helps when the time comes.

 

[G-ManBart]

I just listed a very clean South Bend 10L (Heavy 10) for sale two days ago. It's got a pretty good pile of tooling with it and runs like a top. All you have to do is cross the bridge!

I bought an SCLR tool holder for it since that's what I use on my other lathes and the picture below is the first cut I made on some mystery steel from my stash (you can see it's also in the first picture). I simply set a light .010 cut, feed around .03" per rev and that's the finish I got. Yeah, she's 70 years old, but can easily still make fantastic parts.

The problem with most of the Chinese imported machines (not Precision Matthews) is that you really can't expect much support down the road. With popular vintage machines almost everything is available should you need it. In the background you can see my Sheldon 13x36....really nice machine, but a good bit harder to find parts for. I've been trying to find a factory follow rest for a couple of years with no luck so I'm going to fabricate one. For the S-B I could probably find one in a couple of weeks if I wasn't too picky on price.

 

[RoninB4]

Some day I want a vertical mill and a lathe. Maybe one of those combo deals. Hobbyist / vise stuff.

-As another member posted, avoid the combo machines. As a lathe or a mill they fail at both functions (most of the time) and you'll be quite disappointed.

 

[paulsomlo]

In your part of the world? Look for a Standard Modern.

 

[ez-duzit]

...
I did contact the king 10x22 has someone else interested, I was offering $1500 he said $1600 min.
...

Don't tell me $100 is going to make any difference to you.

 

[solo machinist]

I just listed a very clean South Bend 10L (Heavy 10) for sale two days ago. It's got a pretty good pile of tooling with it and runs like a top. All you have to do is cross the bridge!

I bought an SCLR tool holder for it since that's what I use on my other lathes and the picture below is the first cut I made on some mystery steel from my stash (you can see it's also in the first picture). I simply set a light .010 cut, feed around .03" per rev and that's the finish I got. Yeah, she's 70 years old, but can easily still make fantastic parts.

The problem with most of the Chinese imported machines (not Precision Matthews) is that you really can't expect much support down the road. With popular vintage machines almost everything is available should you need it. In the background you can see my Sheldon 13x36....really nice machine, but a good bit harder to find parts for. I've been trying to find a factory follow rest for a couple of years with no luck so I'm going to fabricate one. For the S-B I could probably find one in a couple of weeks if I wasn't too picky on price.

Those south bends are nice lathes.

 

[Aaron_W]

Says it coms with extra tooling but not sure what.

This can make a huge difference, the tooling can be worth as much or more than the machine.

Take a medium size (10x24 or 12x36) vintage lathe that will often sell for $1500-2000 with the basic tooling most lathes come with from the factory (2 chucks, steady rest, couple of centers, drill chuck). The bare lathe without tooling might not be a very good deal even at $500 because you will easily spend several hundred dollars to $1000+ just buying the basic tooling you will need. On the other end well tooled with good quality tooling and $4000 might not be a bad deal.

 

[G-ManBart]

This can make a huge difference, the tooling can be worth as much or more than the machine.

Take a medium size (10x24 or 12x36) vintage lathe that will often sell for $1500-2000 with the basic tooling most lathes come with from the factory (2 chucks, steady rest, couple of centers, drill chuck). The bare lathe without tooling might not be a very good deal even at $500 because you will easily spend several hundred dollars to $1000+ just buying the basic tooling you will need. On the other end well tooled with good quality tooling and $4000 might not be a bad deal.

This is a huge point with lathes in general, but specifically with vintage lathes. I can't count how many times I've seen a lathe listed for $500 to $1000 and it's missing a $500 tailstock, $300 follow rest, $400 steady rest, $100 collet adapter, etc, etc. Just finding some of those parts can be nearly impossible even if you have the money to pay for them.

My Sheldon came with nearly everything you can think of but no follow rest. I keep an eye on the used machinery sites and check eBay every night...no luck yet. I actually bought the metal to fabricate one since I've needed the capability a few times and I can't wait any longer. I expect to have to pay something like $3-400 if one does pop up...and I won't hesitate.

 

[Mgdoug3]

My first lathe was a small Craftsman which was on the same level as the mini lathes. I only had it for a couple of months before I sold it. A lathe too small and light is not much different than having no lathe.

I bought a Clausing 4914 and I was much happier. It's a 10x36 that was missing the tool post but I only gave $250 for it at a farm auction. There's hardly any wear in the ways and has been a hardy lathe to learn on.

I bought another, bigger lathe a couple of years ago, Leblond Regal 17x54. I think that it's bigger and the controls are more user friendly. It has some wear so it wouldn't have been a good first lathe. I actually used my Clausing to make parts for it. If you know your machine, you can still make accurate parts.

I'm now wanting an even bigger lathe but I'll probably have to hold off on that for a couple of more years. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a lathe like my Clausing cheap. Other times you have to search and search just to find a halfway decent lathe.

My suggestion is to find a lathe that you know you will be able to sell and recoup your money. That either means you bought it cheap or you bought a quality lathe, hopefully the latter. Name brands like Grizzly or PM are safe options.

 

[ez-duzit]

...Name brands like Grizzly or PM are safe options.

Those are pretty much bottom of the food chain. You can't even discuss them on practicalmachinist.com

 

[Mgdoug3]

Those are pretty much bottom of the food chain. You can't even discuss them on practicalmachinist.com

The guys over there have no time for hobbyists. I would rather have one of those machines new to learn on than an old clapped out Craftsman. I personally wouldn't buy one of those currently because I want a 20" or bigger lathe with a minimum 80" bed but starting out Grizzly or PM will suite a beginner well and hold their value relative to no name brands.

 

[ez-duzit]

...starting out Grizzly or PM will suite a beginner well and hold their value relative to no name brands.

Actually they don't hold their value, unless you buy one used and let the first owner take the big licking. A much better way to go is to buy a quality used lathe which is well tooled.

 

[Mgdoug3]

Actually they don't hold their value, unless you buy one used and let the first owner take the big licking. A much better way to go is to buy a quality used lathe which is well tooled.

I don't disagree with your last sentence but if you have no experience or don't have a friend who's knowledgeable, it's very easy to buy an overpriced, clapped out South Bend or Craftsman lathe. It's easier for a beginner to make that mistake which is why suggested new.

I passed on a Logan 10" lathe with a quick change gearbox, multiple chucks, steady rest, and follow rest for $800. A friend offered it to me but I had no use for it and I wasn't going to try and make a profit off him. Deals are out there but they don't last for long and you have to be lucky.

 

[cannuck]

Those are pretty much bottom of the food chain. You can't even discuss them on practicalmachinist.com

I will come to the defense of the cheap Chinese mini lathes and mills. In Canada (PA) they run about a grand each (in Loonies, not real money) and that price literally doubled overnight about 4 years ago. I bought display items from local PA for something like $200 each (about what you should pay for used IMHO). My 13 x 40 is simply too large to chuck up some stuff and it is those tiny little jobs where they are barely adequate (mill much moreso than lathe) but ideal for me to let children and grandkids learn some basics before turning loose on something that can hurt the machine or them. For example: SIL #1 makes wooden and plastic pens and perfect for making little rings from tube or bar stock.

 

[Farmer888]

In your part of the world? Look for a Standard Modern.

So I'm going to look at a standard modern tomorrow. He doesn't seem to know much think he's selling it for his father but looks like a 11x20 series 2000 is my guess. Comes with decent tooling, $1200. If it's not totally wore out should be a good machine? Even if I ended up needing to sell it I could likely get most of my money back i'd think? of course totally depends on condition.

Was on my way out there last night but snow was getting too bad where he was had to turn around after he called me saying driveways drifted in etc.

 

[RoninB4]

I'm not going to defend cheap, tiny, machinery from Chi-Wan. I do agree that a first time buyer needs to be careful buying something excessively worn, missing essential tooling, or is too large/heavy to easily move. Yes buying something that can be resold is a good idea but if it's not easily moved in it won't be easily moved out either and eliminates some buyers. Add to that the uncertainty for some whether they'll want to keep the machine at all. Those of us that have experience already know they want a machine, some may want one but have no experience to draw from. Machining is often filthy, dangerous, and flings chips everywhere. The "romance" may not meet the reality, the wife may not like finding chips/stringers in her laundry area, the physical space it occupies may be objectionable, tooling is a money pit.

All I'm suggesting is use some discretion in purchasing. A $200 tiny, used machine may be a better buy to at least determine if you want to pursue machining. Yes it will be limited on accuracy (there's methods to work around this) and not as user friendly but it will be easy to move in/out and not a big chunk of cash for ROI awaiting a buyer. I've run giant lathes, have a good German lathe, and still own one of the tinker-toy lathes for secondary operations. It's only a bad purchase if you don't use it, a small lathe is still better than no lathe at all.

 

[RoninB4]

If it's not totally wore out should be a good machine? Even if I ended up needing to sell it I could likely get most of my money back i'd think? of course totally depends on condition.

-Depending upon condition and tooling it would be worth a look and a better buy than an over-priced South Bend, Logan, or Craftsman. A 200 series has a 20" swing. Be careful moving any lathe, they are all very top heavy and easily topple over.

 

[Farmer888]

I'm not going to defend cheap, tiny, machinery from Chi-Wan. I do agree that a first time buyer needs to be careful buying something excessively worn, missing essential tooling, or is too large/heavy to easily move. Yes buying something that can be resold is a good idea but if it's not easily moved in it won't be easily moved out either and eliminates some buyers. Add to that the uncertainty for some whether they'll want to keep the machine at all. Those of us that have experience already know they want a machine, some may want one but have no experience to draw from. Machining is often filthy, dangerous, and flings chips everywhere. The "romance" may not meet the reality, the wife may not like finding chips/stringers in her laundry area, the physical space it occupies may be objectionable, tooling is a money pit.

All I'm suggesting is use some discretion in purchasing. A $200 tiny, used machine may be a better buy to at least determine if you want to pursue machining. Yes it will be limited on accuracy (there's methods to work around this) and not as user friendly but it will be easy to move in/out and not a big chunk of cash for ROI awaiting a buyer. I've run giant lathes, have a good German lathe, and still own one of the tinker-toy lathes for secondary operations. It's only a bad purchase if you don't use it, a small lathe is still better than no lathe at all.

I usually have enough projects that just need a pin turned to size or a bushing, simple tools/pieces for repairs etc that it would be very useful for. Nothing complex or fine tolerance work, If I did indeed enjoy it then could pursue more advanced etc.


I'm no stranger to dirty work, already do many repairs and welding etc just never ventured into machining type work. Farm I work for has a lathe and it's handy for the type of stuff I described earlier. I'm welcome to use theirs but i'd rather learn at my own place and have it in my garage for these cold winter evenings to keep busy.

 

[Ricky Joe]

I had a nice Dalton. Small, but very satisfactory. I think I paid $400 or so when I bought it, sold it for $900, but that was several years later. You can find nice, well cared for lathes of high quality for a reasonable amount. I’d investigate that South Bend you were offered in a previous post.

 

[alfadan]

For hobby use especially, I dont think we should get too caught up in resale value. A hobby is pure expense. You're going to spend and "lose" money. Its entertainment