Buying a shop need masonry experts!!!

[spoolgarage]

So after 6 months of negotiations I am 20 days away from getting my first "real" shop. But after sinking alot of money into the purchase the building inspector stated that I may have a problem with the I beams. He states that stress cracking below the I beams are a major problem. He hasn't finished the report yet but I am so nervous that I have wasted so much time and money on this for nothing. Would this be a deal breaker? How much do you guys think it will cost to fix? The building is 70 years old and other then that and a couple electrical problems the place is good. Here are some photos of the cracks.

 

[fireguy]

My first question, what are his credentials? What is his experience? Was he ever employed in the trades?

I assume the cracks are the mortor joints? Have you contacted a mason for an opinion?
Why are the joints cracking, is the foundation bad?

What will repairs cost? Can you make a counter-offer, deducting the cost of repairs?

 

[ddawg16]

I'm not so sure you have a 'major' problem. It looks like you have seperation of the upper floor from the lower floor....but what the I beam is sitting on looks solid.

I have a feeling you will need an examination by a professional engineer....most 'inspectors' are only qualified to catch the 'obvious'...this is obvious...so he is doing his job.

I would suggest posting the same pics and verbaige over on...

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/

There are a couple of guys there who really know their stuff....you might get a better answer there.

 

[spoolgarage]

I'm not so sure you have a 'major' problem. It looks like you have seperation of the upper floor from the lower floor....but what the I beam is sitting on looks solid.

I have a feeling you will need an examination by a professional engineer....most 'inspectors' are only qualified to catch the 'obvious'...this is obvious...so he is doing his job.

Well he actually was a profesional engineer and he came highly recommended by my lawyer who is a friend of my mothers. Maybe i am overreacting but I guess i have to wait and see what the report says thanks for the website.

 

[Donald Cook]

I've worked on some old buildings if thats all it settled in 70 years, it's not bad. You need to check the outside to see if cracks go through.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Without taking a look and understanding how that pilaster is supported, everyone here is doing nothing more than taking a WAG. If there is a steel support column in the pilaster, the cracking is not an issue. If the beam is sitting on an embed plate, you could have some issues (depending on the pilaster construction). You did what you should (hire an engineer to take a look). Let him come back with an answer and go from there.

As part of his report, he should be able to tell you what will need to be done to fix the problem but at the worst, you would shore up the beam with support jacks, tear down the old pilaster (interior portion only) and pour a new footing and add a steel post, pour a concrete pilaster or build one from block and fill the cells full to support the beam.

How many of the support pilasters look like this one? The reason I ask is that it may not be as expensive at you might think to fix them if they do need to be repaired.

 

[Outlawmws]

You should also be able to go to the city and get a look at the original filed drawings that it was built and inspected to. This should tell you what, if anything, is inside the support column.

On the rocking west coast I seriously doubt that would be allowed to fly, but the east coast doesn't have the earthquakes we do near as often...

 

[Justin1776]

you would shore up the beam with support jacks, tear down the old pilaster (interior portion only) and pour a new footing and add a steel post, pour a concrete pilaster or build one from block and fill the cells full to support the beam.

This. I'm currently on a two year HVAC renovation at a school, we have been doing similar renovations to old block walls to install mezzanines for air handlers. It really isn't that bad. Depending on how the wall is built, you can knock out some holes in the block above the beam and pilaster, fill them solid with concrete (tie beam might be in the way). This will help the wall crack too. Then epoxy in rebar to hold the new pilaster to the wall. Or you can use threaded rod to hold a big piece of "C" channel to the solid wall to support the beam. However you do it, you will need to have an engineer approve it.

 

[djjsr]

I own a couple of 100 year old brick buildings and have dealt with some crack issues, so I'll give you my amateur opinion.

You need to determine if the structure is still moving or if the settling is pretty much done. You can easily do this by repairing a few small sections of the mortar and see what happens. If the building is still moving, you'll see cracks in the new mortar in a month or two. If that happens, you'll need a structural engineer to determine what needs to be done to stabilize the structure. Sometimes it can be fixed with some steel bracing. Sometimes it requires some footer work, which can get expensive.

There doesn't appear to be any cracks or mortar deterioration below the bottom edge of the I beam. I think that's a good sign. If it turns out that the building is not still moving, you may just be able to repoint the block and bricks in the cracked areas.

Just an FYI, older buildings have mortar that does not contain portland cement so it's a bit "softer". Have your mortar checked by somebody that knows the difference. Using the modern higher strength mortars in an old building is not a good idea. It creates hard spots vs soft spots as the masonry expands and contracts. That causes cracks in both the mortar and the blocks or bricks.

JMO.

 

[DekeT]

Looks to me that the beam has been subjected to a lateral load it was not supposed to. A simple pilaster, as it appears there would be inadequate to support the beam from the complex loads it may incur. I would not even consider having that beam above me without a steel column in reinforced footings on each side to absorb horizontal loads and joint rotation.

Listen to the Ga hybrid.

 

[PT Doc]

Looks to me that the beam has been subjected to a lateral load it was not supposed to. A simple pilaster, as it appears there would be inadequate to support the beam from the complex loads it may incur. I would not even consider having that beam above me without a steel column in reinforced footings on each side to absorb horizontal loads and joint rotation.

Listen to the Ga hybrid.

That sounds like a great plan. Megan I'd it was deemed to be overkill. Unless it costs tens of thousands.

If this building is a structural disaster, can you walk away?

 

[spoolgarage]

Well my contract was written that if anything is found I can walk away no problem. So no worries there. Alot of time and money would be lost especially the phase 1 environmental inspection but if its gonna costs tens of thousands to repair and the owners don't want to pay for it I will walk away.

 

[darkk]

If I was concerned about the supporting wall to that I beam, I think I would just get an I beam of appropriate size to sister the wall vertically from floor to ceiling similar to a lolly column. it shouldn't be more than few thousand. Seems like that would be an acceptable safe solution.

 

[LutzTD]

Looks to me that the beam has been subjected to a lateral load it was not supposed to. A simple pilaster, as it appears there would be inadequate to support the beam from the complex loads it may incur. I would not even consider having that beam above me without a steel column in reinforced footings on each side to absorb horizontal loads and joint rotation.

Listen to the Ga hybrid.

it looks like the beams and walls are tied in. if this is or has been for any length of time an unheated space I could see those beams moving pretty far with thermal expansion. the concrete wont tolerate a small amount of expension at all. I just built a building with steel beams and concrete pilasters and I wondered about this. The mason grouted in solid around one end so I anticipate this area will crack out over time. the other end has 1 inch clearance to the wall. Im in FLA so I wont see near the temp swings you will have had in New Jersey.

 

[BD1]

Like Outlawmws said about locating drawings good start. If not ,i would get a hammer drill and 1/4'' diameter long masonary bit and drill hole on centerline of beam through block to see if you hit a steel column. is the I beam resting directly on block or is there a steel baseplate on top of block ? Hard to see from pictures. Normally, when the beam is set on top of block you will see the edge of steel baseplate if not column inside. This is how it's done on the jobs I have seen.
You said I Beams, how many are there ?? Please keep us informed.

 

[KEH]

I'm not a builder or a structural expert, but it looks to me like that is a concrete block building that has had steel support beams added to it, OR that it's a steel building that has had masonry walls added.Waht is above that huge I beam that they neede it for support? Or is the open space so wide that it needs that large a beam? Anyway, it looks to me like a piece of large pipe or I beam at each end of the large I beam would support it for any reasonable use.

Just fyi, the Romans made better concrete than we do today. They developed cement that would harden in water and also concrete that was very hard. A famous temple with a dome, the Pantheon, was built about 1400 years ago of concrete and it is still standing and the original doors still open and close. Modern buildings and bridges mad from steel reinforce concrete last about 100 years. Rebar placed in concrete rusts eventually and swells to about 4 times its original size, cracking the concrete.

Are the supporting piers for the big I beam poured or are they concrete blocks? If they are poured solid reinforced concrete I don't see any problems for your lifetime. If there is another thread showing more pictures, I apologize for not being better informed.

KEH

KEH

 

[Zeke]

I'm no structural engineer, but 25 or so years ago we had an aggressive earthquake retrofit program here in LB. The first targeted buildings were unreinforced brick buildings. From my experience in dealing with these, that looks like a brick pilaster on a block wall. Why, I don't know. Perhaps the beam was installed after the building was built.

I think a thorough forensic investigation is in order. The building seems to have a natural "hinge" point right at the upper window line. I doubt the presence of reinforcing and cell fill for that to happen.

Fortunately there are many ways to correct such a situation. Be prepared to have a structural engineer well versed in concrete and masonry construction restoration and repair examine this. The use of epoxy formulations for this type of repair has become wide spread.

For further research, look up "concrete repair epoxy products" on your favorite search engine.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You should also be able to go to the city and get a look at the original filed drawings that it was built and inspected to.

The building is 70 years old

Given the prospective buyer says the building is 70 years old, I doubt there are any kind of drawings on file anywhere. I my county and most around here, you submit plans and sketches, and such, but I think very little of this is kept on file anywhere, I KNOW that in my county it is not.

Charles

 

[Outlawmws]

Given the prospective buyer says the building is 70 years old, I doubt there are any kind of drawings on file anywhere. I my county and most around here, you submit plans and sketches, and such, but I think very little of this is kept on file anywhere, I KNOW that in my county it is not.

Charles

That would depend on the local practices. Around here they keep full records of drawings filed for buildings built.

 

[SGKent]

you are in N. NJ. No part of the USA is safe from earthquakes according to geologists.

Looking at the photos I see areas that have different materials used in the construction and even so the cracks run through all of them. I would listen to the engineer. It would be nice to see what is on the other side of that wall. Is there a joined structure?

 

[spoolgarage]

Here is what it says on the report.

*The one story detached building is used as a mechanic shop
and is built on 18 courses of 8 in. CMU (concrete masonry
units) foundation walls
*Building has 4 steel I-beams supporting wood frame roof and
supported on brick pockets
*Repair cracked vertical brick pockets and CMU foundation
walls supporting steel I-beams at both sides of the building

 

[BD1]

I think you need to find out if the beams are support by the block or if there is a column inside surrounded by block. Drill 1/4'' hole and feel if you hit steel on centerline of beam.