Buying and Selling on Classifieds Issues

[jjarrell4]

I know I am new to GJ but I have been selling some items on the classified section to clear out my garage.
I am posting this thread to inform and aware other buyers and just as importantly sellers.
I have sold about 5 items, to various members and 4 of the 5 have gotten their items without a hitch.
On the last item a 18 piece snap-on 1/4" metric set, I shipped to a member via USPS, a huge mistake.
The package was received by the gentleman a few days after shipment, and stamped on the package was "RECEIVED WITHOUT CONTENTS" and "RECEIVED WITH BROKEN SEAL"
I have verified with the post office that those are the correct stamps for the issues and the buyer sent me pictures of the damage and the stamps. He demanded a refund, I completely understand his frustration, and I refunded the money to his account. But I was wondering what yall thought about insurance and shipping carriers when buying through the classifieds.
Buyers are protected through paypal,if they use paypal, but sellers are left holding the piss pot, being out the money they were paid and out the item they sent.
Do yall think it is up to the seller to announce the option of insurance and the buyer pay for it or include it in the price?

After this ordeal I was thinking of including insurance in the price of the items I am selling. Let me know what yall think.


Thank ya much

 

[j-easy]

I would just include insurance in the price.

 

[Mickey O]

Get insurance with USPS and add it to the shipping cost, if the buyer doesn't want to pay for insurance then it's their loss. Or incorporate the cost of insurance into the sale price of the things you're selling. Another option is FedEx ground, prices are usually reasonable and items are covered for the first $100, UPS is another option but out here it's quite a bit more expensive than FedEx.

 

[Bull]

How well did you package the box that arrived damaged/empty? Can you describe your method?

In my opinion, if a buyer does not specifically say that they want insurance, then I don't buy it. USPS insurance is expensive. People complain about shipping costs as it is, so I am not automatically going to add insurance to the total.

If you packaged the box carefully, then I am not sure you should be required to refund his money if he did not buy insurance. Maybe someone will say something that will change my mind, but that's my gut reaction right now.

There was a thread about this just a couple days ago...maybe two. Personally, I have shipped a lot of tools via USPS and none have arrived beat up/boxes damaged, but I pack them really well.

 

[jjarrell4]

I was thinking that it was on him as the buyer to ask for insurance too. But I didnt want him ruining my reputation as a seller before I even had a reputation for my self on GJ. There were 18 sockets on a rack which I wrapped in foam, so there was no obvious outlines felt or seen. I used the largest envelope and sealed the seam.

 

[j-easy]

I think it's on the seller to either pay for insurance or let the buyer know what additional charges will be needed to cover the cost of insurance and give them the option to purchase it.

As a buyer I would want a refund if an empty box showed up in the mail, I also purchase insurance every time when given the option.

 

[Bull]

A Priority flat rate envelope?

Without a detailed description or pic of the packaging method, I can't get a feel for how secure it was. With those envelopes, I ship 1/2 ratchets all the time. That's about the thickest items I'd put in one, as it starts to distort the closing flap. I tape all four edges and overlap the tape over to the other side, so the seams can't split. The tools inside I zip-tie and sandwich between two pieces of cardboard, taped together like a sandwich. That way, if the envelope splits, nothing is going to fall out...the envelope would have to be torn open entirely for the sandwich to fall out.

Most of what I sell is small-potatoes as far as cost. A SO set like that is kind of expensive. The buyer should ask for insurance, and maybe you should avoid the thin flat rate envelopes and use a larger box that you can really pad and tape the hell out of to make it ultra-secure.

 

[Bull]

Why should the seller automatically be responsible for insurance though?

Also, you as a buyer ALWAYS have the option of stating that you want to pay for insurance, right?

]I think it's on the seller to either pay for insurance[/B] or let the buyer know what additional charges will be needed to cover the cost of insurance and give them the option to purchase it.

As a buyer I would want a refund if an empty box showed up in the mail, I also purchase insurance every time when given the option.

 

[j-easy]

Why should the seller automatically be responsible for insurance though?

Also, you as a buyer ALWAYS have the option of stating that you want to pay for insurance, right?

I am not saying the seller should always have to eat the cost, but they are in charge of making sure what I buy gets to my doorstep, I don't care how they ship it, who they ship it with, or how its packaged, as long as it gets in here intact, or I get my money back.

If there is extra cost for a box or bubble wrap or insurance or gas to the post office or anything else, make it known along with the price or include it on the total price, and pass that cost along to the buyer. and if it is something I want to buy at a price I am willing to pay, I will gladly pay for the item and whatever other costs are involved.

If I order something from an online retailer I pay and I get the item, If I do not get it or it arrives broken, they take care of it and either give me my money back or send me another.

I feel bad for the OP and this really ***** that this happened, but if was the buyer and I got an empty box I wouldn't want to pay for that either.

 

[jeepnut24]

Any time I ship something of real value, I get insurance. No real good reason not to, and stories like this that prove why its worth it. Sorry it got lost in shipping though, that *****.

 

[Bull]

Actually, they are not in charge of that, the USPS is. I can't be responsible for getting your tools to you when I am not the one delivering them! I could package your tools in a gun safe, but if the USPS is going to damage or lose that safe, how can I possibly be responsible when I exercised all due diligence in my packaging methods?

I am not saying the seller should always have to eat the cost, but they are in charge of making sure what I buy gets to my doorstep, I don't care how they ship it, who they ship it with, or how its packaged, as long as it gets in here intact, or I get my money back.

 

[Toolhorder]

Well the same thing happened to my Secret Santa gift (package came empty stamped no contents). The sender put insurance on it too but isn't responding to PM's now so I guess he's claiming the tools and keeping the money or something.
I'm personally not buying/selling/doing secret santa on GJ anymore. It's too much hassle dealing with the issues that come up for me.

 

[Mickey O]

An uninsured package sent through the USPS is an open invitation to any one of the thousands of crooked employees working there, getting paid to much and receiving great benefits and a pension.

 

[Bull]

Form one bad experience? The classifieds here seem to be one of the most satisfactory forum buying/selling venues around.

I'm personally not buying/selling/doing secret santa on GJ anymore. It's too much hassle dealing with the issues that come up for me.

 

[back2class]

How well did you package the box that arrived damaged/empty? Can you describe your method?

In my opinion, if a buyer does not specifically say that they want insurance, then I don't buy it. USPS insurance is expensive. People complain about shipping costs as it is, so I am not automatically going to add insurance to the total.

If you packaged the box carefully, then I am not sure you should be required to refund his money if he did not buy insurance. Maybe someone will say something that will change my mind, but that's my gut reaction right now.

There was a thread about this just a couple days ago...maybe two. Personally, I have shipped a lot of tools via USPS and none have arrived beat up/boxes damaged, but I pack them really well.

Are you kidding me??? You have the DUTY to deliver the item to a buyer as they paid! If you are too cheap to buy insurance that is a personal decision, but the buyer should not be left holding the bag because of it. Now if you state insurance optional then that is a different story. I think most anyone would agree that as a seller doing the shipping you have not honored your end untill the item is delivered as described and not leave some poor sap screwed out of his tools and money because the shipper you hired mesed up. I am quite suprised everyone does not feel as I do.

 

[Bull]

You need to work on your attitude.

To repeat: If I ship your tools in a GUN SAFE and USPS loses or damages it, how can I be held responsible?

That's what insurance is for. Insurance that buyers should purchase.

And how is insurance ever NOT an option?

Are you kidding me??? You have the DUTY to deliver the item to a buyer as they paid! If you are too cheap to buy insurance that is a personal decision, but the buyer should not be left holding the bag because of it. Now if you state insurance optional then that is a different story. I think most anyone would agree that as a seller doing the shipping you have not honored your end untill the item is delivered as described and not leave some poor sap screwed out of his tools and money because the shipper you hired mesed up. I am quite suprised everyone does not feel as I do.

 

[bmwpower]

An uninsured package sent through the USPS is an open invitation to any one of the thousands of crooked employees working there, getting paid to much and receiving great benefits and a pension.

Never thought of it that way, but I guess they can tell just by looking at the package that it's NOT insured due to the sticker. Easy pickin's.

Sorry, but I have to agree with others that say it's the sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer. It's the responsibility of the shipping company to get it from the seller to the buyer and insurance is the means to make sure this happens without financial loss.

I personally use UPS. USPS may seem cheaper on the surface, but add that $1-2+ for insurance and the price is no longer the better option.

 

[Bull]

I agree with the bold part!

Also, insurance can't ensure delivery without loss. Insurance just compensates in the case of loss.

I am open to changing my mind on this, which might happen through this cordial discussion we are having, but the way I look at it now, I control what is in my hands. I package those tools the best damn way I can. Once it disappears behind the counter at the PO, I can't protect it anymore.

I am in full agreement that insurance is a good idea, I just don't see how it is not a buyer's responsibility to purchase it.

This summer, I bought a $1200 transmission from TX that was damaged because the seller did not package it well at all. Thankfully, I was covered, since I paid for insurance for the full purchase price of the item and so the seller could file a claim and send me a replacement. He didn't pay for insurance, I did...of course!

Sorry, but I have to agree with others that say it's the sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer. It's the responsibility of the shipping company to get it from the seller to the buyer and insurance is the means to make sure this happens without loss.

 

[alex71]

Here's my take on it...The only way the seller is NOT responsible is if the buyer specifically requests an uninsured (cheaper) shipping method. In that case, if the package is lost or damaged, its the buyers problem. otherwise its the seller's.

 

[back2class]

You need to work on your attitude.

To repeat: If I ship your tools in a GUN SAFE and USPS loses or damages it, how can I be held responsible?

That's what insurance is for. Insurance that buyers should purchase.

And how is insurance ever NOT an option?

Bull, all I can say is it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

 

[Bull]

Including people who feel the need to be rude, apparently.

Let's move on and not clutter the thread. You want to have a cordial discussion, that's fine. Attitudes, not so much.

Bull, all I can say is it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

 

[bmwpower]

I fixed my loss clause for you.

I don't understand when you say he didn't pay for insurance... didn't you pay him to ship it? Or did you send him a label or something?

I agree with the bold part!

Also, insurance can't ensure delivery without loss. Insurance just compensates in the case of loss.

I am open to changing my mind on this, which might happen through this cordial discussion we are having, but the way I look at it now, I control what is in my hands. I package those tools the best damn way I can. Once it disappears behind the counter at the PO, I can't protect it anymore.

I am in full agreement that insurance is a good idea, I just don't see how it is not a buyer's responsibility to purchase it.

This summer, I bought a $1200 transmission from TX that was damaged because the seller did not package it well at all. Thankfully, I was covered, since I paid for insurance for the full purchase price of the item and so the seller could file a claim and send me a replacement. He didn't pay for insurance, I did...of course!

 

[Toolhorder]

Form one bad experience? The classifieds here seem to be one of the most satisfactory forum buying/selling venues around.

Yup...
I always make sure my stuff I sell gets where it's going even if I have to pay more to cover my end or whatever.

If I was my Secret Santa I would have made it right and got paid on the backside by making a claim with USPS. For whatever reason he's just not too concerned about it. I'm not going to call him out here by name but he got insurance on it and he refuses to do anything about it. Whatever I'm done with GJ for stuff like that.
There are nice tools for sell here but I'm in CA. so I can go to swap meets and flea markets pretty much all year and find stuff. Choosing to not do use the classifieds here isn't a huge loss for me. It's sad but I won't have to worry about getting an open package and then the sender won't return PM's in the future.

 

[Bull]

What do you mean? The trans was listed at a certain price for purchase, which I agreed to. He then calculated shipping costs with insurance for the full value of the item, which I paid on top of the price for the part itself. So, the insurance and shipping costs were from my pocket, not his.

I don't understand when you say he didn't pay for insurance... didn't you pay him to ship it? Or did you send him a label or something?

 

[bmwpower]

Bull, all I can say is it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

Since we're on this topic, weren't you the one who complained about a buyer who tried to cheat you claiming they never received the package or something? Did you purchase insurance on that package?

 

[bmwpower]

What do you mean? The trans was listed at a certain price for purchase, which I agreed to. He then calculated shipping costs with insurance for the full value of the item, which I paid on top of the price for the part itself. So, the insurance and shipping costs were from my pocket, not his.

Yea, but HE paid for it directly, not you. I guess I read into your statement too much.

 

[Bull]

Your memory is correct. It was him, which is ironic.

Since we're on this topic, weren't you the one who complained about a buyer who tried to cheat you claiming they never received the package or something? Did you purchase insurance on that package?

 

[bmwpower]

Your memory is correct. It was him, which is ironic.

Sometimes it takes a bite in the *** for someone to change their thinking. It happens to the best of us.

 

[Bull]

Yes, correct.

Maybe what I am going to do now, since I see what the majority opinion is, is just make insurance mandatory, and if someone actively declines it, then so be it and it's on them if USPS runs their package over with a flail mower.

Yea, but HE paid for it directly, not you.

 

[Danglerb]

As far as ebay, paypal, and most credit cards, its is entirely the responsibility of the seller to get the goods as described to the buyer in a timely fashion.

Once you lose your shipping virginity, you realize all shippers have faults, periodically things will go wrong, and its up to you to include those facts in the basic way you do business. Delivery confirmation, tracking, and insurance are tools, but you need to include some amount in every transaction to smooth over the few that inevitably go bad.

Anything heavy needs to be firmly attached to something that prevents it from poking through the packing, like a flat piece of cardboard that immobilizes the item.

 

[back2class]

Since we're on this topic, weren't you the one who complained about a buyer who tried to cheat you claiming they never received the package or something? Did you purchase insurance on that package?

Yes, and I ended up refunding the buyer though that was ebay and he was a scammer. But more relevant, I also had a buyer here get an item 3 months after it shipped and I refunded him in the mean time. What's your point fellas? And no, I still don't buy insurance on dinky stuff as in the end it is just not worth the hassle for small stuff and most people are honest and I honor my duty as a seller.

 

[Bull]

Didn't eBay recently make it so that shipping costs must automatically include insurance? Or, do I have that wrong? Thought I read that on here in the last month or so.

As far as ebay, paypal, and most credit cards, its is entirely the responsibility of the seller to get the goods as described to the buyer in a timely fashion.

 

[bmwpower]

Didn't eBay recently make it so that shipping costs must automatically include insurance? Or, do I have that wrong? Thought I read that on here in the last month or so.

You can't change MORE for insurance. For eBay, the same thing holds true... "it's the sellers responsibility to make sure the item gets to the buyer yada yada"...so the seller deals with insurance claims, problems, etc.

I used to have guys try to charge me MORE for insurance on top of a UPS shipping charge....duh....it's automatically insured for $100.

 

[bmwpower]

Yes, and I ended up refunding the buyer though that was ebay and he was a scammer. But more relevant, I also had a buyer here get an item 3 months after it shipped and I refunded him in the mean time. What's your point fellas? And no, I still don't buy insurance on dinky stuff as in the end it is just not worth the hassle for small stuff and most people are honest and I honor my duty as a seller.

Hey we all make mistakes. I just thought it was kind of contradictory, that's all.

Why did you refund the 2nd guys money? Did you have insurance on it? What was the shipping company's stance? Just curious as I've never had that type of experience before. That must have been a surprise when he got it.

 

[Bull]

What does that mean? If they are shipping USPS, for example? More than the actual cost of shipping plus insurance, you mean?

You can't change MORE for insurance. For eBay, the same thing holds true... "it's the sellers responsibility to make sure the item gets to the buyer yada yada"...so the seller deals with insurance claims, problems, etc.

 

[bmwpower]

What does that mean? If they are shipping USPS, for example? More than the actual cost of shipping plus insurance, you mean?

Of course, I screwed up the terminology....

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-practices.html

From ebay's page:

What you're not allowed to charge:

Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described.

Tip: You should incorporate any insurance fees into an item's price or handling cost.

Tariffs, duties, and customs fees: For cross-border transactions, you're not allowed to collect tariffs, duties, or customs fees. (Buyers may be responsible for paying these fees as required by country laws.)

Tip: Remember not to inappropriately classify an item as a gift as a way to avoid certain duties, tariffs, or customs fees. U.S. law prohibits submitting false or misleading customs information.

Related fees: Things like gas, mileage, time spent at a carrier, employee wages, or eBay and PayPal fees should not be added.

 

[glenmore]

If the item is of any value, as a seller I make insurance mandatory, fold it into the price or cost of shipping, and state in the ad that price includes insured shipping.

 

[Bull]

Of course, I screwed up the terminology....

Ok, got it.

If the item is of any value, as a seller I make insurance mandatory, fold it into the price or cost of shipping, and state in the ad that price includes insured shipping.

This sounds like a reasonable policy. Do people balk at the added cost of insurance? Do you just risk eating the value of the cheaper, uninsured tools if they are lost or damaged?

 

[caper]

Of all the things I've purchased from here and ebay I've only ever had 1 item not show up.I contacted the seller and explained that the item hadn't arrived.There was no insurance on the package.I explained to him that I didn't think it was the fault of either one of us but a problem with the shipping company.I requested we each take the hit for the loss by splitting the loss down the middle.I didn't feel it was fair to make him reimburse me for the full price as it wasn't his fault USPS lost the package.At the same time I didn't think it was fair for me to eat it all either.He was agreeable to the idea and refunded me half of the costs.As a side note the package did show up several weeks later and I got back in touch with the seller to let him know it had finally showed up and sent him back the refund he had sent me.All we were out was some paypal fees.

 

[48548]

For the original Poster, sorry for your loss. If it had been me who bought it, I would have eaten it because I didn't ask for insurance or at the very least split it with you (also you didn't state insurance so as a buyer I wouldn't assume). I don't blame you at all and feel your pain. You are a good person for giving the money back.