Buying tools based on warranty

[lbhsbz]

Warranty has never been a huge deal for me on hand tools, but many here seem to make it a very important part of tool purchases. Why?

In the context of decent quality tools, If the right tool is used for the job and the tool is used correctly, there is an incredibly slim chance that it will break. Sockets will occasionally wear out and break, but I can count the amount of quality sockets I've broken in the last 20 years without taking my shoes off...and I regularly use chrome sockets with an impact. I use my tools in a professional environment...I'm not just a weekend hobby guy.

To warranty something that costs less than $20-30 to replace generally costs me more than that in time and effort. It's easier and cheaper to bin it and move on and pay for a better or equal replacement

So...why the huge hang-up on warranty?

 

[four.cycle]

Seriously?

There are two kinds of people who use tools:
Those who break tools and need to be able to avail themselves to a warranty, and those who do not break tools and therefore don't need to be overly concerned about a warranty.

There is no common ground, and each side will go to great lengths to justify their positions on the subject.

FTR: I can count on one hand the number of sockets I've broken during the last 50 years, and still have five fingers left over.

Buy good tools, use them properly in the manner for which they were designed, and you won't break tools. Easy peasy.

On the other hand, I have stood behind my buddy and watched him put a 1/2" breaker on a Harbor Freight stud extractor, put a little bit of arm into it, and have the stud extractor literally explode and blow little pieces all the way across the shop. I was also standing behind him when he put a gigantic Chinese-made 3/4" drive socket onto the lug nut on a 42-foot motor home, put a bit of arm into it, and the socket blew to pieces and he landed on his ***.
Lesson learned: Do not buy Chinese tools. Do not buy tools at Harbor Freight. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

 

[Corndoggeh]

I couldn't agree more. However, my own observations and generalizations create two groups. The "bang for your buck" group that wants the best warranty and quality for what they can pay for and being that its extremely difficult to get cold hard numbers on metallurgy and testing on different brands, the warranty experience is generally what they can use to judge what is best for their wallet with a guarantee that if their tool breaks its not money out of their pocket.

The other group is the abusers, wanting the best warranty because they know they're going to put pipes over their wrenches and ratchets, use their chrome sockets on impacts, and buy used ones at the flea market to turn into the manufacturer/supplier for a brand new one, even if the turned in tool is not damaged.

Personally, I have no hang-up on warranty, tools are technically a consumable. The best warranty is one that never needs to be used.

 

[themiller]

In my experience - the people that are overly concerned about warranty are also the ones who will happily drive extra miles to save $.01/gallon on gas. Logic, probability, and fiscal responsibility are not top of mind for that group. Living paycheck to paycheck is a good generalization. Unexpected expenses are a huge deal because of years of poor decision making.

 

[Sycan]

Here's my opinion. Lifetime warranty on tools used to be an indication of good quality. The manufacturer was telling the customer that if their product failed they would stand behind it 100% . The manufacturer could do this because they knew they were producing the best product possible and the warranty claims would be minimal. Now someone like harbor freight offers the same warranty but it is built into the cost of the product because odds are it will break. They also bet on the customer not wanting the same peice of **** back after it failed on them.

If you notice the high quality manufactures sell serviceable tools, kits to rebuild ratchets, change just the bit on a torx socket, change the shaft on a pick, ect. The cheap manufactures change out the whole tool, sometimes the whole set.

I buy almost exclusively snap on as a self employed mobile mechanic, and have had very few warranty items. Few bits, couple 8mm impact sockets that wore out, and one ratchet rebuild. Not bad for $30,000 worth of tools. Snap ons warranty really doesn't matter to me, and if their product was failing enough that the warranty mattered, I wouldn't want the tool back. I only use snap on as my example because that's the only one I have experience with. Back in 2000 when I was starting out I was going to go all craftsman, but I broke a ratchet. Took it to Sears to get fixed and they had to ship me one, took a couple weeks to get it too. I was done with them and I still have that brand new long handle flex head ratchet in a junk drawer.

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[Fedwrench]

A lifetime warranty provides you a lifetime of failed tools.

A warranty is similar to a condom, for it provides you a false sense of security while you're being screwed.

All tools can fail regardless of what brand is stamped on them. Warranty isn't really a factor in my tool purchasing. Buy stuff that's well made and you'll be ok.

 

[bushmechanic]

When someone is asking over $100 for a ratchet, they'd better be warranting it for life.

I've found that in general, manufacturers of anything with a solid, no-nonsense warranty do generally produce the best products at their chosen price point.

There are exceptions, such as places like Harbor Freight, that only have that return policy because that's the only way to make people feel decent about buying junk, but more often than not, a manufacturer warranty that's clear as a bell and long-lasting indicates pride in workmanship.

Examples:

Filson

Danner

Northstar

Panasonic

Pelican (the real cases, not the phone ****; never buy one of those)

Snap-On

Tilley

Craftsman (formerly)

Before you scoff at the last example, remember that I said "at their chosen price point". In the past, for the money, you genuinely couldn't buy better.

I only like to buy things once. I buy almost exclusively expensive stuff, but it holds up as long as reasonably possible. As a result, I have less stuff, and I spend less money on it, even though the buy-in is high.

I'm wearing a $250 shirt right now. Yup, that sounds like a **** thing to say to many, but read on: I've had it for fifteen years, and it's been all over the world in the worst environments you could imagine. Once, a button broke. Filson sent me an entire bag of buttons to choose from, and then sewed them on for me once I picked my favorite.

Not a dime out of my pocket. I'd say this shirt was worth it.

 

[lbhsbz]

In my experience - the people that are overly concerned about warranty are also the ones who will happily drive extra miles to save $.01/gallon on gas. Logic, probability, and fiscal responsibility are not top of mind for that group. Living paycheck to paycheck is a good generalization. Unexpected expenses are a huge deal because of years of poor decision making.

That's funny...I just got into in argument with my mom about buying gas. I told here what I paid, and she happily brought up that she'd filled up with 14 gallons and had done it for $0.13/gallon less than me...at costco....and she only sat in line for 15 minutes. She didn't seem to understand when I explained to her that my time was worth more than $7.50/hr....but my Dad found it quite amusing.

 

[lbhsbz]

On the other hand, I have stood behind my buddy and watched him put a 1/2" breaker on a Harbor Freight stud extractor, put a little bit of arm into it, and have the stud extractor literally explode and blow little pieces all the way across the shop. I was also standing behind him when he put a gigantic Chinese-made 3/4" drive socket onto the lug nut on a 42-foot motor home, put a bit of arm into it, and the socket blew to pieces and he landed on his ***.
Lesson learned: Do not buy Chinese tools. Do not buy tools at Harbor Freight. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

I'm always amazed at folks who become disappointed or angry when a $3 version of $50 tool breaks.

 

[visionguru]

Seriously?
......
Lesson learned: Do not buy Chinese tools. Do not buy tools at Harbor Freight. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

It's stupid to come to such a conclusion. There is only well made and cheaply made, it has little to do with where it was made.

 

[GarageGuy89]

Never understood the warranty thing either,,,

 

[Moparman390]

Hold on, I've gotta get my popcorn.

 

[dogdog]

lifetime warranty scams --> VWs and ChannelDucks

 

[dogdog]

It's stupid to come to such a conclusion. There is only well made and cheaply made, it has little to do with where it was made.

Psychological issues.

 

[ItsNemo]

I've warrantied a couple properly used tools over the years...bit sockets that snap at less than 1/10th the torque they should handle, ratcheting breaker bar that's head locked up and wasn't serviceable, couple screwdrivers who heads wore out quickly.

Happens even with quality tools, there are flaws in them and they just break/fail. The people who abuse the tools and then warranty them are crooks. A warranty is not supposed to cover a stripped ratchet when a 4 foot pipe is put on it.

 

[stercorarius]

Because when high end brand x ratchet is stellar and brand y is equally stellar and prices are similar I go with the one that is easier to warranty.

 

[ssdave]

It's stupid to come to such a conclusion. There is only well made and cheaply made, it has little to do with where it was made.

Actually, there is a high correlation between where it was made and how well it is made in the real world we live in, at least here in the U.S. Not a true cause and effect correlation, but a correlation.

COO does not equate to quality level as an umbroken rule, but if you analyze what is available in stores, it correlates pretty well.

That correlation changes over time, as we have seen with Japan, and to some extent with Taiwan.

You can pick tools by COO and be pretty accurate on what quality level you will get. There are exceptions where the quality level falls either higher or lower than the norm, but overall the correlation would be pretty good.

The general correlation for readily available tools in the USA would be: USA>=Japan>Europe>Taiwan>Mexico>China>India

There are smaller subsets where china might exceed usa, or japan might fall below Mexico, but overall it is a good generalization for tool quality. Now, whether the quality difference is worth the cost difference is another discussion entirely.

 

[WittHay]

What is important to me is how easy it is to replace a broken tool. Broken hex bit socket, hand it to the tool truck guy, he fixes it, you get it back easy. Broken Proto tool, hand it to the counter guy at the industrial place, and he will bring in a replacement or give you a new tool

Warranty is something you never think about when you buy high quality tools from local suppliers.

 

[ssdave]

I don't understand warranty obsession either. I use warranty so infrequently, it is more of a bonus than a feature. I have owned and used tons of great quality obsolete tools that of course have no warranty. Indestro, Vlcheck, P&C, Pennens, Fleet, Plomb. Of course, Proto would warranty some of those for the goodwill of it. But, warranty wasn't a consideration, the tool quality was. It's been nice to warranty the handfull of Williams, Snap-on and Proto and SK I have broken. But, I could just as easily have bought a replacement and not have been financially impacted enough to matter at all. It might have increased my overall tool cost by a half percent. When I had SO stop at the dealership next door, I could easily walk over on break and do my warranty stuff, as well as buy what I needed. Now that I have to drive around and catch the SO man, it's not as worthwhile and I buy most of my SO secondhand and have warrantied the 3 or 4 items in the past 2 years by phone/mail.

I finally gave up warrantying Craftsman; it really was taking literally more time than the tool was worth. My son was attending college in a town where there was a sears; I started throwing them in a bin and he would warranty them when he was near there; it amused him to get something for nothing. Eventually he even decided it wasn't worth it. I warrantied a bunch of Husky stuff at HD, and it was such a time consuming and painful experience that I just threw all the remaining Husky I had into the discards; it wasn't worth using tools that broke and were hard to warranty, and i sure wasn't going to put out cash to buy replacements in kind.

So, to me quality counts for a lot more than warranty does.

 

[lbhsbz]

Dealing with the warranty on sub $100 item has generally been more a hassle than it was worth. I've learned over the years to just spend a few extra bucks on something less likely to self destruct and when and if it does, simply go buy another. It's easier on the mind.

Items with a forever warranty have that warranty cost build into the price. I'd rather buy an expensive item with no warranty than an item for the same price with a lifetime warranty. The company that does not provide a warranty likely put all the money into developing a product that won't fail, while the one with the lifetime warranty is supplying trash that costs pennies to produce and count on people only exchanging it one or 2 times before getting fed up, throwing it in the trash and buying from another brand.

 

[lincwelder225]

Here's my opinion. Lifetime warranty on tools used to be an indication of good quality. The manufacturer was telling the customer that if their product failed they would stand behind it 100% . The manufacturer could do this because they knew they were producing the best product possible and the warranty claims would be minimal. Now someone like harbor freight offers the same warranty but it is built into the cost of the product because odds are it will break. They also bet on the customer not wanting the same peice of **** back after it failed on them.

If you notice the high quality manufactures sell serviceable tools, kits to rebuild ratchets, change just the bit on a torx socket, change the shaft on a pick, ect. The cheap manufactures change out the whole tool, sometimes the whole set.

+1

I always looked at a warranty as the manufacturer's way of saying "we stand behind this" nowadays, it seems like "buy it, abuse and break it.. Come back and get another one" Excellent post!

 

[four.cycle]

I'm always amazed at folks who become disappointed or angry when a $3 version of $50 tool breaks.

Who's mad, bro?

Truth is:
Buddy was hassling with a manifold stud. I called and asked "What are you doing?" and he tells me about this manifold stud. Harbor Freight is halfway between my house and the shop. It's quarter to five on a Friday afternoon.
I swing by HF, grab the stud extractor - $5 bucks and change - and take it down to the shop. Five minutes later we picked up the pieces and tossed them into the trash and had a good laugh about it. He fought with that stud for another day or two before he got it out.
The 3/4" drive socket was part of a Chinese-made set that I picked up second hand for $20 bucks. He opened the box, took out that socket and put it on the lug nut, it blew to pieces. He tossed the pieces back into the box, and they used the set (pretty heavy with all those sockets in that steel box) for a doorstop down at the shop. Neither of us had high expectations on that set - what can you expect for $20 bucks?

 

[Estebanchee]

I base my tool purchases more on high reviews more than warranty. I'm no pro yet, and I'm not one to gorilla any tool past it's limit (not a strong lad for that lol). If a tool breaks on me, it usually didn't cost me my first unborn child. I do shop at Harbor Freight, but I also get nice stuff from companies like Bahco and Hozan. I just buy what I can reasonably afford that's the best quality. Even at Harbor Freight I'll look at reviews online to see what are the majority positives or negatives. Do the same online at Amazon, or here on the forums to see people's feedback on a tool.

Warranty just isn't an issue for me unless I end up with a defective tool on arrival...then I pray lol

 

[zendriver]

It's nice harbor freight has a lifetime warranty on their hand tools but it really wouldn't matter to me, since they're inexpensive enough I could just throw them away if they broke.

Someone was harping that Honda generators carry a three-year warranty, wall Harbor freight was only 90 days, but that Hardly justifies paying 5x the price.


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[Mr_B]

I have no major interest in warranty.
I buy tool based on design, my preferences from hands on inspection and price.
I also tend work out potential self warranty costs and see many tools cheaper replace up to 3 times over reliable lifetime options .
people buying heavily on warranty concept from likes of tekton gw etc in for shock in time as warranty and tools change and you not getting back what you paid into .
Few things worth having warranty for the pro but it not worth getting in debt over and should never really be main reason on choosing the tool ...

 

[gungatim]

when I was a kid my first tool set was the cheapy 40 pc socket set in the red metal tin. the kind they still sell for a couple bucks. horrible quality. I rounded sockets, broke ratchets, snapped extentions constantly with those. that is what made me start buying craftsman when I got older and moved from bicycles and lawnmowers to cars. it seemed important at the time to be able to exchange a broken tool since I was used to them breaking. the craftsman rarely did, nor do hardly any of the truck brands or other brands I have owned in the past 40 years.

the need for lifetime warranty just kinda stuck, even though I only really use it when I buy flea market tools and exchange them (don't flame me bro!).

 

[Gmonkee]

Buy and try. If it fails even in ergonomic issues resell and try another. If it broke DON'T buy any more.

The early version of my kit had a few fails that were adjusted for long ago. Currently even the screwdrivers are not wearing out in years. The sockets never were changed out, nor the extensions.
Neither are big name brands.
Pliers and wrenches were switched in and out at will to experiment with different stuff even though none failed.

Warranty was never an issue and breakage is so rare I don't even worry about it. There is zero truck brand in the entire kit. Six day work weeks in a shop offers lots of opportunities to use and abuse them too.

 

[crewchief888]

ive been around GJ for quite a while, and have watched the "warranty" & "best bang for the buck" type threads.
heres my observation...

theres different types of users

professional wrench turner, (typically automotive), nice, clean, truck brand box, and tools, not too many warranty complaints...

professional tool abuser (i'm in this category) i work on const eq, do whatever it takes to get the job done, truck & industrial brand tools, with a sprinkling of some lesser (quality?) tools thrown in. very few warranty issues.

DIY/homeowner wants/needs every possible combination of sockets, wrenches, and "stuff", but is on a tight budget, cant/wont pay up for top tier tools. complains when something breaks.

experienced DIY'r has probably been wrenching on his own vehicles for years, is the guy in the neighborhood that everyone comes to for help.
knows the difference between a good quality tool, and a bad quality tool, and will "pay up" for the tools that make the difference between a botched repair and a smooth sailing fix. i put myself in this category as well...


over the 30+ years ive been wrenching, ive kinda "figured it out" as to what does and doesnt work for me, either as a pro or DIY'r, and make my purchases based on value, usefullness, availability, and lastly warranty.
i prefer to lay my grubby hands on something BEFORE i lay out my hard earned cash for purchase.

seems like quite a few of the complaints i see are from guys who buy "sight unseen" via the web, based on a review...

 

[finn]

Actually, there is a high correlation between where it was made and how well it is made in the real world we live in, at least here in the U.S. Not a true cause and effect correlation, but a correlation.

COO does not equate to quality level as an umbroken rule, but if you analyze what is available in stores, it correlates pretty well.

That correlation changes over time, as we have seen with Japan, and to some extent with Taiwan.

You can pick tools by COO and be pretty accurate on what quality level you will get. There are exceptions where the quality level falls either higher or lower than the norm, but overall the correlation would be pretty good.

The general correlation for readily available tools in the USA would be: USA>=Japan>Europe>Taiwan>Mexico>China>India

There are smaller subsets where china might exceed usa, or japan might fall below Mexico, but overall it is a good generalization for tool quality. Now, whether the quality difference is worth the cost difference is another discussion entirely.

I don’t think your country to quality correlation goes deep enough.

A true correlation and analysis would include other variables including, but not limited to, selling price and possibly sales volume and market availability.

I would expect tha a higher end tool, normalized for selling price and other variables would come out ahead no matter what the coo.

Several million Apple products with high content design features are made in China and have very low warranty rates. I interpret this to indicate that made in China is anecdotal to alleged high failure rate of a product simply because it is imported from China.

Old prejudices die hard.

 

[Ign]

A lifetime warranty provides you a lifetime of failed tools.

A warranty is similar to a condom, for it provides you a false sense of security while you're being screwed.

All tools can fail regardless of what brand is stamped on them. Warranty isn't really a factor in my tool purchasing. Buy stuff that's well made and you'll be ok.

True with Autozone parts and HF or even Tekton but not true with quality brands like Proto or Snappy.

Snap-On has sent me ratchet rebuild kits and struts for my box lid free, on their dime. The local truck just swapped out a straight blade I obviously used as a pry bar (I honestly don’t remember doing so but there’s no other explanation given the obvious failure).

Given two QUALITY brands warranty definitely influences my decision. If it’s HF I know it’s like a LT warranty on an Autozone fuel pump - they’ll just hand ya another shittastic part.

 

[Ign]

Dealing with the warranty on sub $100 item has generally been more a hassle than it was worth. I've learned over the years to just spend a few extra bucks on something less likely to self destruct and when and if it does, simply go buy another. It's easier on the mind.

Items with a forever warranty have that warranty cost build into the price. I'd rather buy an expensive item with no warranty than an item for the same price with a lifetime warranty. The company that does not provide a warranty likely put all the money into developing a product that won't fail, while the one with the lifetime warranty is supplying trash that costs pennies to produce and count on people only exchanging it one or 2 times before getting fed up, throwing it in the trash and buying from another brand.

Until you consider Snap-On and then that theory goes right out the window.

But yes, you’re paying the “insurance premium” on the front end. But they’re not cranking out garbage - if anything they put out the best they can so they never have to “pay a claim.”

 

[mrjaw14]

It's insurance if you want to look at it that way. it'd be dumb to say only people that intend to crash their car buy insurance.

The majority of people will disagree with me on this, but many brands charge a premium and say yes it's expensive, but you'll only have to buy it once. I personally have spent more money on "premium" tools under the buy once philosophy. It's well known that you're paying 2-3x what it's worth on the concept that the tool will break at some point, regardless of if it's abuse or not.

The problem comes in when one of these brands doesn't fold, bonny for example, where the company isn't there anymore, vs something like craftsman, or the recent apex deal with armstrong where a parent company deciding that line of business is going under. Or by making a fundamental change like offshoring a US product. That's making the conscious choice to screw the consumers who've bought into their buy our premium product spiel. Now they are offering inferior products to replace premium ones because they don't have a premium line now. That's akin to bait and switch in my opinion. That's completely different than if SK went under and there was no more SK. One is a company goes out of business, which happens, and the other one is someone in a board room making a product line decision.

The bottom line is the industry norm is lifetime warranty. And regardless of if you think a properly used tool should never break, or if the only tools that break are abused, companies say buy this at 200% of the cost and you'll never have to purchase another one. If you're on a tight budget, but you want quality, then you only want to buy something once. You may never break a tool in your life. but it factors in the justification process to knowingly pay 200% what something should.

Edit: someone beat me to the insurance analogy. I'm glad someone else thinks that too

 

[Sal Bandini]

The car insurance, home insurance, health insurance et al analogy is poor one since insurance is where people pool their money together to protect them in rare case they suffer a loss that would be financially destructive to them. I doubt breaking a $40 tool would bankrupt anyone.

I wonder if all the pro-warranty people get extended warranties on all their purchases.

 

[mrjaw14]

The car insurance, home insurance, health insurance et al analogy is poor one since insurance is where people pool their money together to protect them in rare case they suffer a loss that would be financially destructive to them. I doubt breaking a $40 tool would bankrupt anyone.

I wonder if all the pro-warranty people get extended warranties on all their purchases.

You're missing the forest for the trees. The point of an individual buying insurance is to mitigate risk. Tool companies charge a premium for their product in part because it's a buy once deal. They state that as a reason to spend more on their product. That's attractive to consumers because it helps justify spending more money on a product because they feel like it's risk mitigation. if I spend $100 one time on a ratchet, knowing that I'll only have to buy that one time, I am inclined to do that vs risking having to buy three $50 ratchets with a 90 day warranty and spending $150 long term. the company is banking that I probably won't break it, and that they will make money on the deal. but just like insurance, there will be claims by some and the company will make enough money from the people that don't make claims to cover the ones that do. So it doesn't matter if you're buying a lifetime warranty for risk mitigation, or if you're "a tool abuser" the net result is the same.

So lifetime warranty isn't dumb, and it's the way the industry is built around that enables them to charge a price premium. What we as consumers have to judge is which companies will stand behind their products and which won't. Which is why people come here and "whine" when a company lets them down, hoping that will help someone else make a decision to buy or not buy from company X. that's the remedy: vote with dollars.

If it weren't for threads like have been posted recently I wouldn't know that Apex isn't a company that stands behind their product like I would expect. Matco responded to the Apex thing by having another company produce their products because Apex would not stand behind their product how Matco wanted. Matco could have said oh well, our eighty8 ratchets are no more..sorry all you who bought them from us expecting us to stand behind them. Instead they found a way to stand behind them. So matco's name isn't being drug through the mud in the same way Apex's is. SK, even though they've been through the ringer, has consistently stood behind their projects. Snap-On also seems to be here in the long-term, and aside from them tightening their policy on original purchaser, they are consistently able to replace a high quality US made product with another high quality US made product. There are other good bands, this isn't all inclusive, but this illustrates why we need these discussions on GJ with the goal of finding companies that stand behind their products in the way we're expecting them to.

 

[Sal Bandini]

The real question, then, is the cost less than the perceived risk?

 

[mrjaw14]

That's turned into a judgement call about the company itself. The only way to know that kind of information is to come here and tell your story and see what trends emerge.

 

[Sal Bandini]

So do you get extended warranties?

 

[mrjaw14]

So do you get extended warranties?

lol, actually no. The products sold with an extended warranty option is not priced higher than competition usually so the extended warranty is pure added cost. there's no implied quality difference between products. that's different than buying a premium ratchet where higher quality is implied.

 

[zendriver]

True with Autozone parts and HF or even Tekton but not true with quality brands like Proto or Snappy.



Snap-On has sent me ratchet rebuild kits and struts for my box lid free, on their dime. The local truck just swapped out a straight blade I obviously used as a pry bar (I honestly don’t remember doing so but there’s no other explanation given the obvious failure).



Given two QUALITY brands warranty definitely influences my decision. If it’s HF I know it’s like a LT warranty on an Autozone fuel pump - they’ll just hand ya another shittastic part.

Buy your own admission, expensive tools wear out and break, as well.

FWIW although my AutoZone fuel pump (going on for 4 years now ) has not needed a warrantee replacement, I have replaced brake pads and struts both over 50,000 miles getting replacements for free.

Not sure why that would be deemed as a bad deal.




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[PureLeaf]

I have never broken a socket or a wrench, nor do I abuse my tools. But I have had brand new tools show up with incomplete/peeling chrome; 2 sockets in a brand new set of Wright sockets with missing chrome and a pair of knipex cutters with peeling chrome. Had a brand new VIM Parts tool grabber that I had played with once or twice, when I went to actually use it, the hook/grabber part just fell right out.

All of these companies stepped up immediately and provided fantastic warranty service. Thats why I care about warranty when I buy my tools.