Buying windows and door

[andyvh1959]

Now that my kitchen remodel is nearing done, I'm planning the next big remodel work. The back wall of my living room needs to be rebuilt. The "architect" designed this house back in 1973 to use two 8' patio sliding doors for the entire 17' span of the south facing living room wall. One all wood, unclad post in the middle of the 17' span, maybe 6" wide, supports the 2x12 header and the entire south side of the living room gable/roof. Over 50+ years that one post facing the weather has compromised, rotted, sunk to the point the patio door sliders barely slide. I ran a string along the bottom of the upper trim of the 17' span and it sags at least an inch.

Also, one 8' patio door on the west side wall in the dining room is also in need of replacement. All three patio doors are wood, no cladding, no storm door protection. The architect and builder didn't plan one bit of protection (idiots). Especially worse because the house is a contemporary design with only 6" soffit/fascia overhangs. I'm surprised they survived 45+ Wisconsin winters. In fact the patio door for the dining is literally falling apart. So out they come, and I'm looking to buy four 36" casements and one 36" full view door for the living room, and three 30" casements for the dining room. Eight windows and one door, so I'm expecting something like $12,000 for all of them.

I'm sold on aluminum clad/wood interior windows. Since I have to build the back wall of the living room, and frame in the windows for the dining room its more new construction than replacement. I'm doing the work along with a contractor friend. I like quality, but a good value quality. Marvin windows and doors are very good. Marvin is pricey so I am shopping, Windsor (from Iowa) has a Marvin reputation without the Marvin price. I'll check Pella and Anderson as well, but they advertise/market a lot more so some of that is in the costs.
The attached pic is the living room south wall. The tape "H"s indicate the windows, and the far right will be the 36" door access to the back patio. When I frame the new structure I also plan a light switch on the far right for three lights under the overhang, and for a strip light above the windows for charactor lighting into the living room. So, anyone have experience with new construction windows?

 

[Jakemedic]

I have looked and shopped and researched windows for the last year. I reside right down the road from Pella, and I wouldn’t put their windows in even if they were half price! Actually, Pella windows are what is in my house and they are junk! One window in the garage had to be screwed shut in an attempt to keep it closed. With that said, I am opting for Marvin windows. Their fiberglass line with wood interior. Good quality, highly recommended and quite expensive. Will the cost equal quality? I’m unsure, however my entire upstairs window replacement came in at 10k not installed. I have a trusted contractor who I will be using to install them. They are new construction windows and will have PVC trim on the exterior with a rabbit joint for the J Channel. I wish you luck with your project.

 

[Copymutt]

Can you enhance those entries w/ at least roof protection to keep the weather off whatever you decide on? Ive built two homes w/ mid grade side vent doors & they still look & function just fine only because the sun, rain & snow never touch them.

 

[andyvh1959]

One advantage of doing the work myself is I can take the time to add all sorts of weather and trim flashing as needed to mitigate future water issues. When this house was built back in 1973 they did NOTHING to protect the trim and especially the structural wood behind the trim, just wood on wood. The south side deck was simply applied right against the sididng and trim with no allowance for water, snow, ice drainage (dumb asses). So over years of repetitive wetting and never fully drying, rot takes over. When I have this done I will also replace the deck boards with new composite plastic boards, but I'll also plan a full length 1" gap to allow water drainage.

So once I have the wall deconstructed, I can also plan in flashing/sealing of anything I put in. Also, any wood I use to frame it in will be anti-rot pressure treated wood. I'll probably use direct burial rated wood, which I will also seal with 100% silicon. The old patio sliders went right down to the floor level of the living room, which means on the outside there is no siding, just the lower track of the sliding doors. So I plan windows that will be 24" up from floor level, so on the outside I can apply flashing, sealing and weather resistant siding to also protect all the new framing.

Side note. Back in 2014 I paid $9000 to have AHT Windows of Wisconsin install three replacement windows, two 36x60" wide sliders, and one three section 60x109". I still feel I paid at least $3000 too much. And again today, I cannot get one of the 36x60 windows to fully close and latch/seal. So yet another call to them. When they installed the windows they also made "custom" aluminum cladding over the old wood brickmold. The bottom outside piece on the 109" window they overnotched one corner, and just over-goobered the silicon caulk to fill it. I complained back then, and they said "well they are custom formed on site." but did not replace it. No leaks, but. BS! I used to do complex sheet metal layouts for truck bodies and doors, FAR more complex than these simple three bend 28ga aluminum claddings. And my wife wonders why I do all my own work and not hire out more "professionals."

 

[Hank11]

Some ideas:

If you need pressure treated wood for interior framing, something is wrong and you need to re-think your plan.

100% silicone is not the hot ticket. I like Tremco Dymonic 100 or Vulkem 116. There are others.

Metal clad wooden windows are rot waiting to happen - its just covered up. You really should look at quality vinyl windows.

I'd fill that hole with good straight framing, sheath with Zip, properly taped and sealed with their liquid flashing. Do the window openings with Zip tape and liquid flashing. Huber has excellent tech support and there are a bunch of videos on how to do what I write above. Set the window flanges with tape and Zip liquid flashing. With decent workmanship you will have a 100% waterproof wall.

Last suggestion but most likely to give satisfaction is a simple awning. Even a 2 foot overhang will keep most the rain off your windows and door.

 

[andyvh1959]

One thing seems obvious. No matter where you're from except maybe the Yukon Territories, there are a LOT of replacement windows suppliers. Here in the Green Bay area alone there has to be at least 17 suppliers, not including Home Depot, Menards and Lowes. Says to me there must be good profits in replacement windows.

So I assume the mark up on replacement windows is significant. When I got the quotes for those three windows, one guy just stood on my driveway, glanced up at the 2nd story windows and gave me a quote, no measurements, no interior inspection, no product reviews (this was a guy in a booth at the local home improvement show). So him, no way. The guy from AHT came in with samples, took measurements, talked E-glass, installations, warranty, etc, etc. His initial quote was $12000! For three damn REPLACEMENT windows (the kind that fit into the original frames after they cut the old windows out, the old window jambs stayed in place). He dealt it down to $9K. In retrospect, I wish I had countered with "here's what I am willing to spend, $6000 or no deal." I bet even at $6K they still made money.

The installers showed up. Two guys. Windows installed, adjusted and "custom" exterior cladding applied in less than four hours. Ok, say they get even $25/hr, with an hour travel each way makes it six hours of labor. 12 hour total labor = $300. Even at fully loaded labor rate of $100/hour (benefits, etc), the labor = $1200. Taking a guess that each window was $500 at their cost, means $3000 costs on a $9000 invoice. Pretty tidy profit. I think $6K would have done it and they still would have significant markup.

 

[andyvh1959]

Some ideas:

If you need pressure treated wood for interior framing, something is wrong and you need to re-think your plan.

100% silicone is not the hot ticket. I like Tremco Dymonic 100 or Vulkem 116. There are others.

Metal clad wooden windows are rot waiting to happen - its just covered up. You really should look at quality vinyl windows.

I'd fill that hole with good straight framing, sheath with Zip, properly taped and sealed with their liquid flashing. Do the window openings with Zip tape and liquid flashing. Huber has excellent tech support and there are a bunch of videos on how to do what I write above. Set the window flanges with tape and Zip liquid flashing. With decent workmanship you will have a 100% waterproof wall.

Last suggestion but most likely to give satisfaction is a simple awning. Even a 2 foot overhang will keep most the rain off your windows and door.

Pressure treated lumber is only for the sill plate, bottom headers and veritcal stud cripples that support the windows. Antyhing else will be standard framing lumber. Other tips well appreciated.

 

[PCustoms]

Pressure treated lumber is only for the sill plate, bottom headers and veritcal stud cripples that support the windows. Antyhing else will be standard framing lumber. Other tips well appreciated.

What's a bottom header?

Any pics from the outside?

 

[andyvh1959]

Yeah, after I typed that I realized it wasn't right. I meant the structure that goes under the window that rests on the cripple studs to support the weight of the window, I guess the window sill structure. Actually when I think about it, that'll be 24" up from the sill plate and covered on the outside with exterior wrap, exterior sub-sheeting and then siding. And I can install aluminum flashing under it all. So it'll be protected from any potential moisture.

The outside looks like what you'd expect from two patio doors seprated by a post structure between them. But when the house was built they didn't consider any sort of weather/moisture abatement, other than the sliding screen door outside of the sliding patio doors. Most wind, rain, moisture, snow in this area comes from the west/south-west. So the sliding door jamb structure and wood post behind it, both stting on a wood sill with no flashing, no shielding, was exposed to the elements. In the winter, snow could get through the sliding screen doors and collect, pack and melt against the wood. So the structure was easily prone to weather damage.

Its Sunday as I type this. This morning I was online, searching for windows and suppliers. I made the mistake to post my info on a "find your window supplier" page. Holy ****, so far today, a Sunday, I have received 18 phone calls from local 920 numbers, some which left messages, some which called multiple times in ten mimutes. Wish I had not posted that request. I understand suppliers are responding, but so much on a Sunday? Damn near as bad as making an online request for car insurance, MY GOD, NEVER do that, the calls went on for nearly a year.

 

[PCustoms]

The outside looks like what you'd expect from two patio doors seprated by a post structure between them.

What I would expect and what I've seen built are very different.

Is this on a slab?

Basement?

What does the post rest on?

What load is above the post?

An outside shot of this wall will tell us a lot...

 

[BurtEggley]

I went inexpensive on the dual pane in this house 20 years ago. Came with a 10 year warranty. Jeld Wen, vinyl. All are in good condition, The slider showed some wear on the track last summer so I replaced it with a new track from Jeld Wen. It raised the sliding panel of the door by about 1/4 inch - apparently the new doors are slightly different than 20 years ago. I contacted Jeld Wen to see if they had an old track around that was lower - they said no but they then sent out a courtesy repair guy from Jeld Wen along with the whole sliding panel and replaced it N/C. After that, there is no way I would use another manufacturer. Totally sold on their product and customer service. The only issue we have is one window facing the weather fills up in heavy blowing rain. The seal on the track is too good, I need to notch it to help it drain to the lower part where the drains are, but have been too lazy too because it happens so infrequently. I know vinyl is supposed to be less quality than wood, but these are 20 years old, have weathered 100F - 110F all summer long for those 20 years, some had western sun on them. I have gotten more than my monies worth out of them. Jeld Wen all the way for me.

 

[engineer2]

In 2015 I replaced the windows in my house with builders' grade vinyl Jeld Wen I ordered from Menards. I installed most of them myself and paid a contractor friend to help with the second story. We did a much better installation job than the original builder.
10 windows for an average of about $300 per window.
I didn't go with more expensive windows because (a) home values are stagnant here so no sense investing too much, (b) future home buyers wouldn't know expensive windows from standard windows.
So far so good. No problems with them.

<rant> Contractors seem to be very profit motivated in recent years. Some have been bought out by investment groups who expect quarterly profits. The rule seems to be (materials + labor) X 3. Every business needs to make money to survive but greed has gotten out of hand.
A neighbor got his furnace/AC replaced (100,000 BTU nat gas, 3 ton AC, standard efficiency) for $14,500 and the company subbed it out to no-name guys in a beat up van. They were back 3 times for service calls.
I need the trim painted on my house. All ladder work, about 4 gallons of paint that I'll supply. Quotes have been running $3000 to $4500 for a crew of 3 for 6-8 hours of work. 11 years ago it was $700. </rant>

 

[andyvh1959]

What I would expect and what I've seen built are very different.

Is this on a slab?

Basement?

What does the post rest on?

What load is above the post?

An outside shot of this wall will tell us a lot...

I submitted a picture of the back wall. two 8' sliding patio doors with a single wood post on wood sill on a concrete wall basement below. I detailed the post and structure in an earlier reply. Outside view won't tell anymore,other than showing the rotted wood.

 

[PCustoms]

I submitted a picture of the back wall. two 8' sliding patio doors with a single wood post on wood sill on a concrete wall basement below. I detailed the post and structure in an earlier reply. Outside view won't tell anymore,other than showing the rotted wood.

It will show elevation details.

Based on what you described you have a water infiltration issue that a PT post likely isn't going to fix. I bet the will is shot too.

But how's all the water getting in, is this where the incorrect deck ledger is?

 

[andyvh1959]

Yes I have had a water/rot issue. Not so much a water infiltration issue as the original construction never accounted for moisture buildup or protection. I am not putting in a PT post, just a PT sill plate. The original sill plate "may" be compromised, won't know until I get in there. The level of the original sill for that wall is at least 6" up from the level of the outside back deck and I addressed any wood rot external to the sill plate back in 2009 with replairs and flashing added. But at that time the two 8' patio doors remained, and I repaired what I could.

What I'm doing now is removing the two 8' patio doors and single center post entirely, and reframing the entire rear wall of the living room to frame in four windows and one door (in place of the two 8' patio doors and one central post). In essence the new framing will be four doubled 2x4 posts, one pair each between each window. If I need to replace any of the sill plate that the patio doors used to stand on, that may happen once I am into the framing. So, when I am done I will replace one central post with fours vertical supports for the back wall of the living room/roof.

Here is my preliminary sketch before I do the full drawing on my drafting table, just turn it sideways to view it:

 

[andyvh1959]

Waiting on a quote from the local Windsor window dealer (Windsor is comparable to Marvin, very nice product).

So we stopped at Menards and got a quote for Jeld-Wen W5500 series, wood frame/aluminum extruded-clad. Still a nice window. I have used Jeld-Wen before and had no problems on windows I installed back in 2004. The quote for two 36x60 casements, two 36x60 stationary windows (for the living room), one 30x60 casement and two 30x60 stationary windows for the dining room, totals $9,440.94. In the budget range.

My guess is the Windsor windows will come in close to $11,500. Now I still have to source a pre-hung full view, aluminum exterior/wood interior 36" door. Menards has one for $1025. So if I go with the Jeld-Wen and Menards door I'm at $10,465.94. I may do the Jeld-Wen windows on my Menards charge card and get the 11% rebate for instore purchase, which will net me $1038.50 to cover the cost of the door. The rest of the framing lumber is immaterial as I have a lot of lumber in stock.

 

[kwb]

I hate sliding doors. That said if you want the big opening an accordion door is the solution here.

I would frame in windows and probably one French door as the fix.

 

[dave*99]

I hate sliding doors. That said if you want the big opening an accordion door is the solution here.

I would frame in windows and probably one French door as the fix.

I didn't see any sliding doors in the OP's drawing or plan. 4 double hung windows and a hinged door.
BTW, I'd think about reversing the door swing on that hinged door.

 

[kwb]

I only looked at the original picture. My mistake.

 

[dave*99]

Yes I have had a water/rot issue. Not so much a water infiltration issue as the original construction never accounted for moisture buildup or protection. I am not putting in a PT post, just a PT sill plate. The original sill plate "may" be compromised, won't know until I get in there. The level of the original sill for that wall is at least 6" up from the level of the outside back deck and I addressed any wood rot external to the sill plate back in 2009 with replairs and flashing added. But at that time the two 8' patio doors remained, and I repaired what I could.

What I'm doing now is removing the two 8' patio doors and single center post entirely, and reframing the entire rear wall of the living room to frame in four windows and one door (in place of the two 8' patio doors and one central post). In essence the new framing will be four doubled 2x4 posts, one pair each between each window. If I need to replace any of the sill plate that the patio doors used to stand on, that may happen once I am into the framing. So, when I am done I will replace one central post with fours vertical supports for the back wall of the living room/roof.

Here is my preliminary sketch before I do the full drawing on my drafting table, just turn it sideways to view it:

I'd think about putting maybe 6" of wall between the door and set of windows. Place the light switch there. And reverse the door swing.
Just a thought. In looking at the furniture placement, I get the impression you don't use the doors much.

 

[andyvh1959]

Exactly my plan. Replacing two 8' sliding doors, 205.5" of wall length to fit four 36" windows and one 36" door. Figuring 36.5" for each rough opening width leaves enough space for framing. That allows me to frame four 4" wide "posts" (each a pair of 2x4 studs, 1" gap between), and 3.5" of framing at each end. Easy enough to adjust as needed once I tear out the old 8' sliders and the current central 6" post.

 

[Hank11]

You could make the studs 2X6s and gain a little stiffness and a tiny bit of R value. Unless you must have it match up to the existing interior walls. This will make a big difference in the wall stiffness and the feel of closing the door. A double bottom plate will give more nailing for baseboard. If you order the windows you might think about some an inch or two narrower and have more room for framing, or they might have in stock 32".

 

[andyvh1959]

I'd think about putting maybe 6" of wall between the door and set of windows. Place the light switch there. And reverse the door swing.
Just a thought. In looking at the furniture placement, I get the impression you don't use the doors much.

Understand what you're saying. But if you look at the picture of the back wall of the living room, to the right is set of stairs down from the dining room. So it makes more sense for the door to swing in left handed so the door can be opened from the bottom step to walk out onto the back patio,

Right, we don't use the sliding doors as indicated by the furniture, mostly because we can barely move the sliders because the central post has rotted enough that the top line midpoint of the backwall sags almost an inch, and the top run of the door channel is now pressing down onto the slider. I adjusted the door rollers as much I could in the past. So that's another reason to get rid of the sliding doors and go to windows and one 36" door. The architect that designed this house must have fancied himself a bit of a Frank Lloyd Wright to plan two 8' sliding doors which largely negates the entire wall for furniture placement in a 16x17 living room with a stairway at opposite corners (tri-level). Yet he did not plan a deep overhang like is common to many FLW homes. The overhang over the dual sliders is only 6" wide, and offers NO protection from rain/snow onto the sliding door tracks and structure underneath. If the architect had designed the usual FLW 24" to 36" overhang on that side of the house the sliders and post may have survived the Wisconsin weather since 1973.

He may have been an architect, but not a pratical thinker. Geeze, I designed a more well thought out contempary home in my residential design class back in high school (got an A in that class). We were graded on originality, praticality, flow/layout, overal design, we even had to build a scale model of our design.
Here is a view of the back of my house, showing the double slider doors and minimal overhang.

 

[dave*99]

Your outdoor photo further shows reason to swing the door the other way. I’d not want the door knob to the left when standing at the edge of the deck.
No one will open the door while standing on the bottom step from the interior. You have to bend down too far to reach the knob. So when you are inside standing on the floor, opening the door, you will have to walk backwards to get around the door itself.

 

[Jeff C]

I’m onboard with @Jakemedic. I’m a huge fan of Marvin’s Elevate line (used to be integrity) especially with your lack of overhang coverage. Looks like a clad window inside and out but with no wood anywhere close to the outside. Chance of rot is essentially zero. Price is much easier on the wallet than their ultimate line too.

The typical replacement window business is about on par with the stereotypical corner used car lot salesman as far as I’m concerned. Sounds like you’d agree. (No offense intended to any upstanding car salesmen).

 

[Hank11]

Its screaming for 3 vertical windows and a door. Or 2 landscape windows and a door.

 

[dave*99]

Its screaming for 3 vertical windows and a door. Or 2 landscape windows and a door.

I agree 4 windows looks too busy. More sash and trim than glass in that wall.

 

[andyvh1959]

I agree the Marvin/Windsor brands have the exterior aluminum clad design covered. Their section through details show no possible wood interaction to the weather even if a seal allows some moisture ingress (not like the Pella issue). So I'm hopeful the Windsor quote comes reasonably close to Menards. The Jeld-Wen W5500 series also has extruded aluminum over the entire weather facing side, but is dependent on the glass seal to keep moisture off the wood inside.

 

[andyvh1959]

Its screaming for 3 vertical windows and a door. Or 2 landscape windows and a door.

I went back to Menards for a quote on wider windows, frame it for three windows and one door, with wider framing between each. Jeld-Wen won't do a 48" casement window unless it's a two section window, which drives up the cost. So I got a quote for a 42" wide casement and 42" wide stationary. With one casement in the middle and one stationary on each side, and a 36" door, I'd save $1,761.14 in cost on the windows. If I spilt the framing width evenly that means 8.25" wide framing between each window and the door, and 8.25" framing at each far end.

That would basically be two landscape/picture windows and a central casement window. I like the option to have at least one window I can open for ventilation. Two even wider landscape/picture windows and one door means I'd only have the door to open for ventilation. I do plan a full view Larson storm door in addition to the 36" door.

Waiting on the Windsor quote, the windows are very similar to Marvin in construction. What I like about the Windsor is there is no wood that could be directly compromised by the weather. The entire inner wood section is interior to the outer aluminum extrusion section.


Now, if the outer pane seal were to fail, it does look like there is a path to the wood (which is treated also), but that path is not direct and it is also shielded by the bottom side of the glazing:


To compare, here is the cross section of the Jeld-Wen W5500 series aluminum extrusion clad window

 

[Cane]

A few things that might help you.

I worked for pella for 23 years designing and building there machines. Not telling you to buy from them....do what you want.

Clad frame windows are alot cheaper than fixed casement. Not sure everyone offers them. They are just a frame, glass, and a stop. No separate sash. A fixed casement is same as a operating one without the hardware.

Large operating casements can be a pain. The sash is heavy and they can tend to sag making them not close well. If the wind catches that large of a window you take a chance of damaging the hardware. I need to change the operator in our bedroom window because of this.

Most cladding is sealed to the glass on the outside with mastic. Run a thin bead of silicone around the window where the cladding meets the glass and you should never have sash rot. This is from a friend that was on the design team and represented the company in court cases.

For the door I'd recommend a french inswing. They have a taller bottom rail and are a lot stronger door. My slider is a French slider and I bought it for this reason.

Not sure if the companies you are looking at offer these options just some things to consider.

I bought all casements for my house because I wanted slim shades between the glass and triple pane windows.

Good luck with your remodeling!!!!!

 

[andyvh1959]

Large operating casements can be a pain. The sash is heavy and they can tend to sag making them not close well. If the wind catches that large of a window you take a chance of damaging the hardware. I need to change the operator in our bedroom window because of this.

Most cladding is sealed to the glass on the outside with mastic. Run a thin bead of silicone around the window where the cladding meets the glass and you should never have sash rot. This is from a friend that was on the design team and represented the company in court cases.

For the door I'd recommend a french inswing. They have a taller bottom rail and are a lot stronger door. My slider is a French slider and I bought it for this reason.

Thanks. Some of what you posted are exactly what I'm thinking. If I go with the large casement I might hinge it left hand from the outside so the prevaling west wind would tend to push the window shut rather than yank it open. We don't often get strong east winds in Green Bay, and the back of the house is pretty wind-proof from the east. If I go with Jeld-Wen I will apply clear silicone around the glass like you said. Same for the door, I do plan a French in swing.