Cable Markings - Small Book on my cable

[Spudland_Dave]

So about 3 years ago I scored oh 75ish feet (could be more, doubt theres less) of 4 conductor cable from an electrician for the price of a large Dunkin Coffee... Today I pulled it out from my garden shed in hopes it would be good for my sub-panel. Was looking for the gauge it was, but turns out I've never seen so many markings on a cable so I figured Id check here to see if it would be good for me...here it goes...LOL

09/09/05 CERROWIRE VINYLON-A 4 AWG (UL) MTW OR THWN-2 OR THHN GASOLINE & OIL RESISTANT II SUN RES VW-1 600V OR AWN - TWN75 OR T90 NYLON ER/RB

I'm hoping it will be good enough...just gotta buy some flex conduit of some sort (Metallic or non) and I'll be ready run my sub-sub panel...LOL

**EDIT** I should probably describe what I'm looking to do...I was hoping to put in a 60a sub...stick with 60a only because the breaker is 4 bucks...but I'd like to know what this wire can do for ampacity in case I never need to upgrade the breaker...I see this is 4ga wire

 

[pattenp]

If it's copper it's good to 85A and can be used in wet locations.

Edit: Can you post a picture of the cable?

 

[Spudland_Dave]

If it's copper it's good to 85A and can be used in wet locations.

Edit: Can you post a picture of the cable?

Nice...I was hoping to get at least 75A out of it...
Here are a couple pics of the wire in question.

 

[matt151617]

That's an awfully expensive piece of copper to just give away... anyways, it should be fine for what you need to do

 

[Spudland_Dave]

That's an awfully expensive piece of copper to just give away... anyways, it should be fine for what you need to do

Hey, I paid for it...2.00 and some cents..
It was removed from production and headed to the scrap bin anyways...but ya, I didnt get taken to the cleaners on that deal.

The waste in the Industrial & Commercial world is crazy... I got 125' of Armored 10-3 hanging in my garden shed rafters (Armored in that its copper conductors inside a metallic conduit covered in rubber, dunno the trade name of it) which I got free..it was brand new off the spool. The whole spool was "scrap"...even though it was BRAND new.

 

[pattenp]

Technically because #4 Cu at 75C is rated 85A you can push the breaker to 90A because 85A is not a standard size breaker. However, I would go to no more than an 80A. The wire you have does need to be in conduit.

Edit: The wire also looks like each piece is the same gauge. It also appears not to be an assembled cable such as a URD or MHF is. I think you have 4 pieces of #4 THWN, which is not a problem.

Here's your wire....
http://www.cerrowire.com/thhn--thwn-2

*

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Technically because #4 Cu at 75C is rated 85A you can push the breaker to 90A because 85A is not a standard size breaker. However, I would go to no more than an 80A. The wire you have does need to be in conduit.

Edit: The wire also looks like each piece is the same gauge. It also appears not to be an assembled cable such as a URD or MHF is. I think you have 4 pieces of #4 THWN, which is not a problem.

Ok, like I said, I'll probably go with a 60A just because its 4 bucks vs 30 bucks...but if I find myself tripping it often, Id swap out the breaker at that point.

Yes, it is 4 individual "strands" of the same #4 THHN, I'll have to mark each one individually for color/phase... AND I might actually break it up and cut one strand into 2 if its long enough to do so...so instead of having 4 pieces of short leftover, I'll have 2 longer pieces left.
What size ground can I go with? #6? I only ask because maybe I'll buy the single downsized THHN for a ground run.

What size Conduit for this? Flexible Type preferred.

 

[pattenp]

Even though you're doing the circuit at 60A which would be a #10 copper ground I would do a #8 copper ground to match the potential of the #4 handling up to 90A.

Using a smaller ground you will be fine with 1" conduit. Actually the fill on 1" is four #4 THWN-2.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Even though you're doing the circuit at 60A which would be a #10 copper ground I would do a #8 copper ground to match the potential of the #4 handling up to 90A.

Using a smaller ground you will be fine with 1" conduit. Actually the fill on 1" is four #4 THWN-2.

Yep, I agree...I'd like to match total/future potential for sure.
So sounds like 1" conduit is what I need no matter what. I MIGHT just leave well enough alone and use what I got for all 4 conductors, but 40' of Green #8 THHN probably wont break the bank.

While we are talking conduit and such, pulling the actual wires thru. Should I pull all 4 at once or is it ok and easier to pull one at a time?

 

[pattenp]

I'd pull all four at once. That wire should be easy to pull because of the jacket type. I'd also do the #8 for the ground, but it's your call to use the #4..

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I'd pull all four at once. That wire should be easy to pull because of the jacket type. I'd also do the #8 for the ground, but it's your call to use the #4..

Thank You Very much as always! Your knowledge & insight is always appreciated by me!

 

[lametec]

Ok, like I said, I'll probably go with a 60A just because its 4 bucks vs 30 bucks...

I picked up a brand new 70A Siemens breaker for $16 shipped on ebay. Home Depot price is $33.

You might want to try ebay as well.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

NEC Table 250.122 allows that circuits not to exceed 60 amps, you may use a #10 copper grounding conductor. However if you ever think you intend to upsize the breaker, you will need a larger ground, as the next step in the table is circuits not to exceed 100 amps require a #8 grounding conductor.

For this reason, I would not use less than a #8 ground. It needs to be a green jacketed wire as you are not allowed to take another color wire and remark it as a green ground.

Another issue is that when you upsize conductors (which is effectively the same thing as downsizing the breaker) you are required by NEC 250.122(B) to upsize the grounding conductor (not the grounded or neutral conductor, but rather the "green" ground) in size proportionately according to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors.

You will also need to properly identify the ends of the wire as a neutral. Had this been any smaller wire than #4, you would not be allowed to remark the black wire as a neutral, however, NEC 200.6 allows you to remark #4 and larger wire ends using distinctive white or gray markings completely encircling the cable at its ends.

Charles

 

[Spudland_Dave]

For this reason, I would not use less than a #8 ground. It needs to be a green jacketed wire as you are not allowed to take another color wire and remark it as a green ground.

Another issue is that when you upsize conductors (which is effectively the same thing as downsizing the breaker) you are required by NEC 250.122(B) to upsize the grounding conductor (not the grounded or neutral conductor, but rather the "green" ground) in size proportionately according to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors.

You will also need to properly identify the ends of the wire as a neutral. Had this been any smaller wire than #4, you would not be allowed to remark the black wire as a neutral, however, NEC 200.6 allows you to remark #4 and larger wire ends using distinctive white or gray markings completely encircling the cable at its ends.

Charles

So is an "Overly simplistic way to say this" is on conductors Smaller the #4, you have to get correctly colored wire. On #4 and larger, marking the ends with correctly colored utility tape is acceptable? Or in other words...if I choose to use the #4 which I already have, its OK for me to mark the ends green with green utility tape.

I'm all for a #8 THHN Ground...IF my supply house has it available by the foot in green.

 

[pattenp]

Oh hell's bells... just use the #4 and tape the ends green! Plus then you won't need to worry about the increase in size of ungrounded conductor rule.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

ROFL...The problem here a GJ (and its totally a good one) is people have alot of knowledge at the subject at hand...and thusly, we get good info...lots of it. Seems to me everything in this thread thus far is 100% accurate.. Id rather be worrying about taping my ends green then other things...and lets be real here...if I had to use a black #8 as a ground, taped correctly...both me and my garage would survive...

I'll be honest, i've been on a few forums in my time and this one has got to be one of the best.

 

[Aceman]

Oh hell's bells... just use the #4 and tape the ends green! Plus then you won't need to worry about the increase in size of ungrounded conductor rule.

I agree!! Just pull it all in, you already have it on hand....