California permit for a pole barn garage

[JackReese]

I'm finding that for my area (which is lake county) a pole barn construction is not permitable and one would need to have an engineer sign off on it and then present plans to the planning department for approval. I think this is for pretty much all of California, not sure how it works if a county can over ride the state, but the state building standards commission does not recognize a pole barn construction as a viable building method.

This seems insane to me because everything I've been reading on the internet says that pole barns are cheaper, at least as strong as other standard foundation construction methods, and quicker to build. Anyway, wondering if anyone here from California knows if there are ways around this? I guess if I have to hire an engineer and go through all that it will be more expensive and more of a hassle than it is worth?

 

[ddawg16]

You need to step back a bit and understand most of the 'pole barns' you see are in rural areas of the US with little to no building regulation.

California is a seismic active state. Pole barns don't do well in earthquakes.

As you have more or less found out if you want a permit to build something....

1. Plot plan submitted to Building and Safety

2. Once approved, wet stamped building plans

Personally, while a pole barn 'might' be a little cheaper, I think they look like ****.

 

[LXCam]

I've spent my entire life in construction in CA. The first time I ever saw or heard of a pole barn was on this forum and the first thought that crossed my mind was, that'll never be allowed to be built here. If you're able to figure out a solution more power to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath or waste a ton of money trying. There's just no way for them to comply with all the seismic considerations/codes.

 

[csp]

Personally, while a pole barn 'might' be a little cheaper, I think they look like ****.

I'd hazard a guess that you couldn't externally tell a pole barn from a metal framed barn from one built with balloon frame construction if all three had the same type of metal skin or other exterior finish.

x2 on what lakeroadster said regarding commercial builders that specialize in pole barn construction.

 

[LB-1911]

I'm finding that for my area (which is lake county) a pole barn construction is not permitable and one would need to have an engineer sign off on it and then present plans to the planning department for approval. I think this is for pretty much all of California, not sure how it works if a county can over ride the state, but the state building standards commission does not recognize a pole barn construction as a viable building method.

This seems insane to me because everything I've been reading on the internet says that pole barns are cheaper, at least as strong as other standard foundation construction methods, and quicker to build. Anyway, wondering if anyone here from California knows if there are ways around this? I guess if I have to hire an engineer and go through all that it will be more expensive and more of a hassle than it is worth?

Contact Hansen

We have engineers registered in every state who understand the complicated building codes. Your plans will be stamped by our engineer and sent to you by Priority Mail. Some building departments also request engineered design calculations, which our engineers can provide.

Can I get elevation drawings of my building?

Yes. For a nominal charge, we can produce them for you at any time. Some Building Departments (usually in California) require them in order to obtain a pole barn building permit

http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/

 

[Cyberbear]

In Kern County, California, pole barns are very common. I also found that county building depts. have no lawful jurisdiction over private property, only over municipal property. Licensed building contractors have to comply with local and state codes, but an owner/builder is not under any restrictions. But try telling that to code enforcement w/o actually knowing the law. Most people would rather go along with the codes and avoid problems. It's amazing what a Net search can turn up and what we've been brain washed into believing.

 

[Git]

In Kern County, California, pole barns are very common. I also found that county building depts. have no lawful jurisdiction over private property, only over municipal property. Licensed building contractors have to comply with local and state codes, but an owner/builder is not under any restrictions. But try telling that to code enforcement w/o actually knowing the law. Most people would rather go along with the codes and avoid problems. It's amazing what a Net search can turn up and what we've been brain washed into believing.

WTF have you been drinking/taking?

OP - a quick search found this
http://www.woodpolebarn.com/build_a...lue_prints.php?state_code=06&county_name=Lake

 

[ddawg16]

I'd hazard a guess that you couldn't externally tell a pole barn from a metal framed barn from one built with balloon frame construction if all three had the same type of metal skin or other exterior finish.

x2 on what lakeroadster said regarding commercial builders that specialize in pole barn construction.

I'd place a good sized bet on that one.....SO easy to tell the difference

 

[Farrier]

Pole builds in Ca are certainly not as common as they are in other parts of this country. I personally don't like anything buried in the dirt other than concrete.

 

[MagKarl]

I bought my plans and material package through Hansen. You tell them what your county requirements specify for snow load, wind, seismic, ground bearing, etc. and they draw the plans to your satisfaction, then those plans get sent to and stamped by an engineer licensed in your area. Hansen does that for you, when you receive your plans, they are ready to submit to the county. http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/

 

[Cyberbear]

Over the years I've often been surprised at the lack of uniformity regarding building requirements throughout the nation. In 1995 I built a large workshop and storage structure w/o permits. I was also contacted by code enforcement and threatened with hefty fines if I didn't pull a permit, plus demolition of my building. I explained that I held my private land absolutely through a Land Patent and told them neither the county or state had any lawful jurisdiction to over ride my patent contract from the federal government.
I invited the county to take me to court and prove jurisdiction, but their attorneys went silent and the statute of limitations ran out for bringing charges against me in a court of law. I still don't know what happened, but it all turned out good. Lucky I guess?

 

[MacTexas]

Over the years I've often been surprised at the lack of uniformity regarding building requirements throughout the nation. In 1995 I built a large workshop and storage structure w/o permits. I was also contacted by code enforcement and threatened with hefty fines if I didn't pull a permit, plus demolition of my building. I explained that I held my private land absolutely through a Land Patent and told them neither the county or state had any lawful jurisdiction to over ride my patent contract from the federal government.
I invited the county to take me to court and prove jurisdiction, but their attorneys went silent and the statute of limitations ran out for bringing charges against me in a court of law. I still don't know what happened, but it all turned out good. Lucky I guess?

Do you pay property taxes on the improvement? The only reason to have a building permit around here is to let the tax assessor know you are improving your property so they can increase your taxes.

 

[larry_g]

I bought my plans and material package through Hansen. You tell them what your county requirements specify for snow load, wind, seismic, ground bearing, etc. and they draw the plans to your satisfaction, then those plans get sent to and stamped by an engineer licensed in your area. Hansen does that for you, when you receive your plans, they are ready to submit to the county. http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/

I bought a kit from a local building supply that specializes in pole buildings. Similar to the above but I went one step further, as part of the kit I required them to procure the building permit for me as I didn't want to have to be in the middle if the permitting office had questions I couldn't answer. I also figured that they had an 'in' with the permit office as they also erect the buildings.

It worked for me.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[csp]

I'd place a good sized bet on that one.....SO easy to tell the difference

Enlighten me. Remember, I specified an identical exterior finish.

What's the construction method on this building, which happens to have the same exterior finish as the home?

 

[ddawg16]

Enlighten me. Remember, I specified an identical exterior finish.

What's the construction method on this building, which happens to have the same exterior finish as the home?

Looking at it....yes, it looks like traditional stick framing vs pole barn. But it that is a pole barn, it's a highly modified version.

What distinguishes pole from stick, the poles are set in the ground and the sides are done with girts.

The main issue with pole barns is the lack of shear wall. But if your doing something like the above, then while the initial core might be pole, everything else is just like a stick built. Shear walls, anchors, etc. In the above example, if it is in fact pole, I'm doubtful there was any cost savings over stick

People do stick because they typically want to go higher and use less costly siding.

 

[Git]

Enlighten me. Remember, I specified an identical exterior finish.

What's the construction method on this building, which happens to have the same exterior finish as the home?

The main advantage of a 'Pole' type building is to avoid the costs of a foundation. Certainly makes sense in parts of the country where the frost line goes down several feet - but in most of California and other similar climates where you can pour a slab basically right on top of the ground - why wouldn't you just stick build?

Balloon framing - again built on a foundation but the the studs run all the way from the foundation to the roof. Similar to a pole building, but requires a foundation

 

[csp]

I didn't ask for an explanation of pole vs. stick.

That is indeed a pole building and proof that you can't always tell the difference. The only traditional framing in it is a wall that divides the woodshop area from the garage area. It's my dad's and he wanted it to match the house. It's not highly modified, just has stucco on the exterior and a covered porch.

Metal framing also has girts BTW.

 

[ddawg16]

I didn't ask for an explanation of pole vs. stick.

That is indeed a pole building and proof that you can't always tell the difference. The only traditional framing in it is a wall that divides the woodshop area from the garage area. It's my dad's and he wanted it to match the house. It's not highly modified, just has stucco on the exterior and a covered porch.

Metal framing also has girts BTW.

And you're in Texas...right?

 

[jedeyeben]

Do you pay property taxes on the improvement? The only reason to have a building permit around here is to let the tax assessor know you are improving your property so they can increase your taxes.

I second this statement... I didn't know it at the time, but where I live in Indiana, we don't even have an inspector anymore... They fired the guy years ago and never got another one. Of course I wasn't aware of that until after I went and got a permit to build and then was told later that I didn't even need to, that all I did was let the assessor know to tax it.

 

[csp]

Nope, not in Texas ddawg. Says right under my username where I'm at, not that it has anything to do with any of the fact that there are pole buildings out there that you would not recognize as pole construction.

As lakeroadster said, there are a lot of them which do not look like your stereotypical pole barn with metal siding, no soffits or overhangs, etc.

 

[ddawg16]

Your right....I thought it said Parker County.....my bad.

And there might be a few pole barns in CA.....but considering the seismic requirements, I don't see any real advantage to them.

 

[Git]

I have a 20' x 20' 'outdoor living room' that could be considered a 'pole' structure

The engineer required 5' deep footings for each 'pole'. They were supposed to be 24" square, but you can't get a guy in a hole that small to dig down 5' so they ended up being around 36-40" wide. A rebar cage was also spec'd and the 'poles' were actually 5" steel tubing 3/8" thick with a plate on one end so it could not be pulled upward and out of the footing. The post was suspended in the form and then each footing was then filled with concrete. It was not cheap...

 

[JerryB]

<snip> I also found that county building depts. have no lawful jurisdiction over private property, only over municipal property. Licensed building contractors have to comply with local and state codes, but an owner/builder is not under any restrictions. <snip>

What you think you found out is just plain false. In California, building permits are required for virtually any structure, whether built by an owner / builder or a contractor. In every county I know of, the Planning and Building Department is in charge of permitting, and their rules apply whether you are an owner / builder or a contractor.

There are exemptions for some structures: No permit is required for buildings on one to ten acre parcels of less than 600 square feet and 15 feet in height. No permit is required for structures on parcels larger than 10 acres, with no maximum square footage restrictions, but with a height limit of 25 feet. No electrical or utility hookups allowed. There are also some exemptions for agricultural structures, but you can't claim a workshop or garage is an agricultural structure.

Building permits are only issued to California licensed contractors or an owner-builder.

It would be foolish to think that everyone gets a permit. In my neighborhood in a county adjacent to Lake County, there are many structures that have been built without permits, but here is what happened to a friend:

'Joe' wanted to build a workshop building to house his machine tools. He chose to build a pole barn and since it was on 300 acres well off the main roads, chose to not get a permit. He built the structure and used it for nearly 20 years. Power was provided by a generator, so there was no reason to get a power connection (that would have required a building permit prior to hookup by PG&E).

After ~20 years, Joe wanted to move closer to civilization, and sold the property. The new owner applied for a permit to build a new house. At the first site inspection, the county building inspector noticed the pole barn, and checked his records: No permit had been issued. The County then demanded that the new owner get a permit for the pole barn prior to allowing construction to start on his new house.

That meant paying a fee and fine, then getting the pole barn inspected. Shouldn't be a problem, except that Joe, the original owner / builder had used untreated poles in the construction, along with some construction techniques that didn't come up to code. The poles were rotted at the ground level to the point that they could not pass inspection, and rebuilding the structure to meet current codes was going to be somewhere between expensive and impossible.

Bottom line was a lawsuit between buyer and seller, with lots of legal fees. No winner in any way.

I've got another story where it took us 4 months and cost $600 to get a permit for an outhouse at our local airport.

Bottom line is that you might get away with not getting a permit, but you might be real sorry in the future. I do not know of a single county in California that does not require a permit for a permanent structure.

 

[Cyberbear]

Apparently, in my area property tax increases are based upon the value of improvements, which are most often the result of taking out a permit for those improvements. I once asked about opting out of my property taxes, since I originally opted in during escrow when I originally purchased my land. My request for opting out was ignored, no surprise.
I've yet to do the complete research regarding mandatory property taxes, but since I receive very few benefits from the taxes I pay, I believe I shouldn't be made to pay for what I don't receive. Being in a very rural area, both the police and fire dept. say I'm totally on my own, have never used the school system, etc. I have three 2.5 acre lots, live on one, but pay three times the cost to support the infrastucture.

 

[Norcal]

It used to be in the County I live in, Butte, if you had 5 acres or more you could get a AG permit for $75 for a pole barn, engineered metal building, or whatever, no inspection, plan check, it went away when the County Counsel notified the Board of Supervisors that it did not comply with State law.

 

[Falcon67]

Cyberbear forgets that the modern county Assessor/appraiser has access to local GIS and sat photos, so they don't have to talk to the building or permit department to see changes under their jurisdiction and/or who owns what parcel. I'm not in CA, my "permit" with the city amounted to a receipt for $50. They (city) sent nothing to the county appraiser, appraiser found the building easily. And to what might be your surprise, they were easy to negotiate with on the final assessed value.

I'm pretty sure your lender will not let you "opt out" of property tax escrow because they don't want your railing against windmills to result in their having to buy back their property from the court house steps.

>Apparently, in my area property tax increases are based upon the value of improvements,
That's how it works everywhere, IMHO. We just got our 2016 assessed value in the mail yesterday.

 

[justanengineer]

This seems insane to me because everything I've been reading on the internet says that pole barns are cheaper, at least as strong as other standard foundation construction methods, and quicker to build.

If you truly believe that then I've got a few bridges along with a big green lady in the harbor downstate that I'll sell you cheap.

Cost and strength are both directly proportional to the amount and quality of materials used and indirectly proportional to each other. You cant have low cost and high strength, to get higher strengths you need more lumber/concrete/steel so your cost is going to be higher as well. The reason pole barns are advertised as being cheaper is bc builders generally use a fraction of the framing and very little concrete which is also the reason why most building depts consider pole-structures to be temporary buildings - bc they wont last nearly as long. I've worked on many and am helping with one now thats 25 years old and a rotten, flexing/tippy/weak mess but at least it was cheap originally. OTOH you CAN build a pole building as strong or even better than many stick-built structures but it generally will cost serious money, usually very close to the same or more than a stick-built structure so the stick vs pole debate is really more preference than anything. In this part of the country I see every variety bc we have extremes, some areas have zero regulation nor permits required to build and others have dam near outlawed most pole-buildings bc of high snow loads (deepest snow east of the Mississippi) and ground saturation.

Personally I'd suggest digging into your options a bit, ignoring most of the sales pitches (given by salesmen and ignorant owners alike), and figuring out whats most important to YOU - cost or quality.

 

[slidehammer]

Apparently, in my area property tax increases are based upon the value of improvements, which are most often the result of taking out a permit for those improvements.

That's how it works throughout California. The county assessor operates according to rules mandated by the state.

 

[JackReese]

California is a seismic active state. Pole barns don't do well in earthquakes.

There's just no way for them to comply with all the seismic considerations/codes.

Interesting. According to my research, which consisted of talking to experienced builders, a local engineer, and internet search, and ALL sources state that pole barn structure do very well in earthquakes.

 

[LXCam]

Interesting. According to my research, which consisted of talking to experienced builders, a local engineer, and internet search, and ALL sources state that pole barn structure do very well in earthquakes.

I'd luv to see you pull it off, honestly. But I think you're going to be in for one very long haul if ever getting this thru plan check without a tremendous amount of engineering changes. So much so it'll cost just as much as a stick frame, which might be cheaper - who knows?. Hopefully I'm wrong.