Calling all machinists...I need help with a decision

[Kevin54]

Okay....What would you do?

I've been looking at a CNC mill. The guy that has it had to not only replace one servo, but he also found out the other servo motor was bad. The mill is a Bridgeport, variable speed, and really clean. It doesn't show any wear in the ways. The mill is a retrofitted Prototrak, 2 axis conversion. He also rebuilt a portion of the head with new bearings, keyways, and the major wear parts. Cost to buy...$8000. In buying it, I would have a 2 axis mill with a 9 or 10" "Y" axis travel and around 29" in the "X" axis. I'd have to rent a trailer to get it plus make arrangements to have it off loaded when I got back home, or at least the next day.

OR......I could buy a new Tormach, 3 axis mill, brand new, but the Tormach only has like a 9" x 18" bed travel, but it would be a brand new 3 axis. But then there is the tax and shipping on top of that, plus still getting a rigger to unload it and set it in the garage.

Or....I have an e-mail in to Southwestern Industries about a retrofit for my Lagun mill which is in very good to excellent shape. I asked them for a price on a 2 axis and a 3 axis retrofit. If memory serves me right, the retrofit to make the mill a 2 axis mill was around $17,000 on our Bridgeports we had at work. So I am anxious to see what the price comes in at.

But my basic question for the machinist.......what would you consider a better deal......A 2 axis retrofit on a very good Bridgeport with more table travel, or a new 3 axis mill with basically half the table travel, but having the third axis?

I have a serious headache from thinking I think the 3 axis retrofit on my current mill is out due to what the cost would be to do it, BUT I can sell this mill for around $3000 to offset the cost of either of the others I mentioned. The Lagun I have now has digital readout for X & Y axis, and is really a clean mill. The only downfall is that it has a step pulley for adjusting the speed. The plus on the mill is that it is a really clean and has been a mill really taken care of. Backlash is minimal with maybe .010 tops. No holes drilled in the table, gibs are all tight, and everything moves freely. And the other downside is that it doesn't have power feed for the "X" axis.

Another plus is that the Bridgeport with the two new servo's have a one year warranty on the motors.

I'm looking to get the best bang for the buck, and any machinist on here will understand where I'm coming from. It would be great to not have a worry at all about the money and get the 2 axis mill, then later on maybe getting the 3 axis, but the way it stands now, I'm hoping that whatever I do will be my last mill purchase. I do know that I won't be making anything really huge, but if I would, it just takes some ingenious fixturing to compensate for what is outside of the part envelope size.

So any input?

 

[zkling]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I will give you a wholehearted.... It depends.

On a serious note, a few questions if you don't mind...

What do you plan on doing with the mill that your current mill lacks in? AKA why do you want the CNC capabilities over the DRO? Do you plan on adding a 3rd or 4th axis ever in the future? Will your projects need these? 3 axis on a knee mill is.. Eh

Is this going to be for hobby or also a side business? As if you increase capabilities, could you justify spending more initially?

What prototrack 2 axis controller is on the first mill you mentioned? Some are nicer, more capable and thus valuable than others. In my mind a CNC'd Bridgeport is not a production mill, but more of a small item and repair type machine. It just doesn't have the pure rigidity that a proper bed mill or VMC has for really blowing through material. When he converted the mill to a prototrack controller, did he swap out the feed screws for balls screws? Yea, you'd be amazed at some of the "conversions" I have seen.

As for your current mill.. If all you wish it had was VS and a X axis feed, heck for <$1000, and probably less you could get both of those accomplished. Power feed for the x and a VFD and 3 phase motor for the head. Just something to think about.

IMHO the (or maybe my) dream machine for a home guy that does small parts on the side is one of the smaller Haas machines. They are extremely capable production mills. I think they start in the mid $20k's, BUT if you have the incoming work to support it, you may be able to justify it.

 

[laser3kw]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

agreed
depends on what you want to do. Personally, I would buy all the XYZ travel I can get. XY is better than manual, but Z really makes drill / tap multiple holes a breeze and saves on tooling. If it is just for personal enjoyment / low use, the Tormach is a good deal. They have a good reputation for service / help after the sale. Make sure you understand what features the system comes with. Some systems offer low prices and then charge for the "useful" (like canned cycles or abbreviated g code lists) features.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

The mill we be used for personal jobs, plus other jobs for someone that may need to have something made. It's going to be used for hobby type of work. I like the idea that it has new servo's along with a warranty on them. I also know the programming aspect of the mills. I'm just curious as to what others would do. And with saying that, I mean what would you do if it came to a rebuilt mill and 2 axis, with a fairly good range as far as the X & Y movement verses a brand new mill with about half of the travel of the mill.

 

[zkling]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Again, it depends on what you would be doing with it, which you really didn't explain. What do you want the cnc for that you can't do on your current mill? Having a CNC only machine is a real inconvenience for repair type work, so I would highly recommend that you don't sell your mill and replace it with a tormach 3. Can you give an example of the projects you will make? If your work will fit in the envelope of the tormach, I would go that route. If you are stretching the limits of the tormach I would go with the bridgeport.

You will be able to make more complex designs, although smaller on the tormach. On the flip side you will be able to handle larger parts and obscure shapes on the Bridgeport. You are comparing two completely different machines. The tormach is like a super stripped down VMC, where as the prottrack is just a bridgport with a few cnc components slapped on it.

Here is another option. You could built a CNC retrofit for your current mill. That is what I did, well kinda.

 

[MP&C]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Kevin, if you go to transport the mill and don't have something to lift it off a trailer when you get home, check out your local eqpt rental that rents scissor lifts. They may have trailers such as this one, this drop deck trailer is designed for carrying scissor lifts, the bed will drop right down on the pavement. I've used one for picking up my Lennox Tru-edge from Atlanta, and a South Bend lathe here locally. A ratchet strap hooked around the trailer rear corners and front of the machine will persuade it to slide off the back for an easy unload.

 

[rsanter]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Well you are king asking about apples and oranges

What are you going to do with it?
Do you need the 3 axis for what you want to do?
Will the Smaller work envelope work for what you want?

Personally I would want the 3 axis if the work envelope will do what I want

Or o would look at options to convert my mill myself for much less than the price you mention

Bob

 

[A_Pmech]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I wouldn't replace a Bridgeport with a Tormach.

 

[LXCam]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I honestly can't see any advantage to a 2 axis unit. It's the versatility of a 3 axis that makes it a worth while cost. So what if you lose some travel in the deal. If it's going to become a reoccurring part, just make a jig plate with multiple datums to accommodate the shift. Also new with warranty just can't be beat. Plus you will know from day one how the machine was treated and you're not going into this blind. Keep your manual machine, it has it's place.

 

[bullnerd]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

How close are you to CT ?

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/tls/3976056020.html

I ran a prototrak at a job shop for many years, they are very capable production machines. Although these where big Clausings and very beefy, still 2axis. Aside from the drilling/tapping advantage, not a whole lot of 3d stuff in the real world. We used a tap-arm, which is very efficient at tapping and could be an option for you.

I found a deal on a used 2axis ptrak, I use Mc-9 to do more complex profiling and I still enjoy playing with it and programing at the machine,more than enough for a home shop.

Good luck,its a tough decision for sure.

 

[justanengineer]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Im guessing its a Series I retrofit? Even on a Series II, $8k is too much IMHO. I think the selling point assuming its a super clean machine is $4-5k tops. A 2 or 2.5D machine will make money, but they dont command the price of a real machining center. Personally, Id be looking at other brands tho as there are quite a few that seem to bring less on the used market....Im a big fan of Hurcos to name one.

Theres definitely something to be said for cnc, but Id still rather have more slower machines to add capability, one day Imma get a baby boring mill.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I will give you a wholehearted.... It depends.
What do you plan on doing with the mill that your current mill lacks in? AKA why do you want the CNC capabilities over the DRO? Do you plan on adding a 3rd or 4th axis ever in the future? Will your projects need these? 3 axis on a knee mill is.. Eh

Is this going to be for hobby or also a side business? As if you increase capabilities, could you justify spending more initially?

What prototrack 2 axis controller is on the first mill you mentioned? Some are nicer, more capable and thus valuable than others. In my mind a CNC'd Bridgeport is not a production mill, but more of a small item and repair type machine. It just doesn't have the pure rigidity that a proper bed mill or VMC has for really blowing through material. When he converted the mill to a prototrack controller, did he swap out the feed screws for balls screws? Yea, you'd be amazed at some of the "conversions" I have seen.

As for your current mill.. If all you wish it had was VS and a X axis feed, heck for <$1000, and probably less you could get both of those accomplished. Power feed for the x and a VFD and 3 phase motor for the head. Just something to think about.

IMHO the (or maybe my) dream machine for a home guy that does small parts on the side is one of the smaller Haas machines. They are extremely capable production mills. I think they start in the mid $20k's, BUT if you have the incoming work to support it, you may be able to justify it.

Again, it depends on what you would be doing with it, which you really didn't explain. What do you want the cnc for that you can't do on your current mill? Having a CNC only machine is a real inconvenience for repair type work, so I would highly recommend that you don't sell your mill and replace it with a tormach 3. Can you give an example of the projects you will make? If your work will fit in the envelope of the tormach, I would go that route. If you are stretching the limits of the tormach I would go with the bridgeport.

You will be able to make more complex designs, although smaller on the tormach. On the flip side you will be able to handle larger parts and obscure shapes on the Bridgeport. You are comparing two completely different machines. The tormach is like a super stripped down VMC, where as the prottrack is just a bridgport with a few cnc components slapped on it.

Here is another option. You could built a CNC retrofit for your current mill. That is what I did, well kinda.

Well you are king asking about apples and oranges

What are you going to do with it?
Do you need the 3 axis for what you want to do?
Will the Smaller work envelope work for what you want?

Personally I would want the 3 axis if the work envelope will do what I want

Or o would look at options to convert my mill myself for much less than the price you mention

Bob

I honestly can't see any advantage to a 2 axis unit. It's the versatility of a 3 axis that makes it a worth while cost. So what if you lose some travel in the deal. If it's going to become a reoccurring part, just make a jig plate with multiple datums to accommodate the shift. Also new with warranty just can't be beat. Plus you will know from day one how the machine was treated and you're not going into this blind. Keep your manual machine, it has it's place.

]Im guessing its a Series I retrofit? Even on a Series II, $8k is too much IMHO. I think the selling point assuming its a super clean machine is $4-5k tops.[/B] A 2 or 2.5D machine will make money, but they dont command the price of a real machining center. Personally, Id be looking at other brands tho as there are quite a few that seem to bring less on the used market....Im a big fan of Hurcos to name one.

Theres definitely something to be said for cnc, but Id still rather have more slower machines to add capability, one day Imma get a baby boring mill.

As far as what I would be making on the mill, it all depends. I can't predict the future. I know that one time I made some custom screws for a member on here. The screws were Phillips head screws for some collectible ratchets he had. You can't do it on a 2 axis, and surely couldn't do it on a standard mill. That's just one example although a small one.

As far as the conversion on the Bridgeport, Southwestern did the conversion back in the day. But the mill wasn't working when this guy bought it. He had to put two new servos on it @ $1000 each. The servos are proprietary to Southwestern Industries. Plus the mill was set up with an automatic oiler, and yes, it does have the ball screws.

Zkling......Even a 2 axis mill opens up a lot of avenues over a standard mill with just a readout. It saves setup times, it eliminates the need for a rotary table, it eliminates the need for hole saws, or a boring head if you want to pop a hole into sheetmetal. Almost forgot, the 2 axis mill is retrofitted with the ProtoTrak MX2 controller.

As far as the cost, things may be cheaper in other areas of the U.S. but around here, machines command top dollar. If a person can find a used Bridgeport for $1500-$2000, more than likely it's a POS. Bridgeports by themselves will bring $5000 all day long for a good one. And by a good one, I mean one that runs quiet, doesn't need the head rebuilt, and no slop in the gibs. If I could get my Lagun retrofitted, I would possibly go that route. As far as getting variable speed with a VFD, I think that was discussed in another thread about VFD's vs. rotary phase converters. With a VFD, you have some time for the motor to get up to speed. I like the instant on that a rotary PC give you with no lag time for it to get up to speed.

And with a 2 axis CNC it it way more versatile than a standard mill by all means. A three axis just adds more versatility over a two axis.

Do I absolutely have to have a CNC.......No. But does anyone have a need for 15-20 Snap-On ratchets in their toolbox, let alone the other $40,000 worth of tools they collect as a hobby.....No. But I've been a toolmaker and modelmaker all of my life. It just a passion with me. Machining gives me a relaxation and a release that I don't get otherwise.

I have a little while to kick thing around in the gray matter between my ears. And while I would like to have a real machining center, I can't justify $15-$20,000 right now. I'd like to stay under $10K.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Here are a few pics of what I'm looking at.

 

[saabman]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

If you are considering a Tormach you should also look at Industrial Hobbies (it has a 13x31x20 work envelope). Benchtop machines are not as rigid as a Bridgeport but as I work mainly in Aluminum I have no trouble running 4 inch face mills on IH CNC Mill with R8 spindle (3 HP motor with VFD).

 

[bullnerd]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Thats what mine is, an M2, they have the encoders inside the motor housing instead of the the glass scales on the tables like the earlier MX2.

I did have a cracked board inside my controller when I got mine. But my dad is a TV repair man and fixed it, no problem so far.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Thats what mine is, an M2, they have the encoders inside the motor housing instead of the the glass scales on the tables like the earlier MX2.

I did have a cracked board inside my controller when I got mine. But my dad is a TV repair man and fixed it, no problem so far.

So the M2 is a newer version than the MX2? One thing I did notice that I didn't see on the pics yesterday is that there is no reader for the Z axis on the head, but it looks like there was at one time because of the drilled and tapped holes.

Bullnerd.....do you have a Z axis reader and does the monitor support having the Z axis?

 

[bobadame]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I think 8K is too much for this machine. There are better deals out there for cnc mills of that vintage and capacity. I bought a Leadwell MCV-OP with a tool changer, a couple of vices and a bunch of tool holders, Bobcad-cam software and a lap top to run it and a rotary phase converter for 6.5K.

 

[R.Anderson]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

carlton, mn
BRIDGEPORT SERIES 1 CNC 4 AXIS KNEE MILL WITH SHADOW CONTROL
up for auction bid is at 2400 right now ends in 8hrs.

Needs a little work by the looks of it but who am I to say never owned one.

http://rmn.craigslist.org/tld/3964310484.html
http://www.lots4bid.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?lotsfor17/1

 

[NASTYZEN]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

3 axis or nothing in my opinion. Take your time and find the right one for yourself at the right price. Don't forget, tooling up is usually about 15 or 20% of the machine cost.
Does the controller for that Bridgeport have room for another axis later maybe?

 

[zkling]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Zkling......Even a 2 axis mill opens up a lot of avenues over a standard mill with just a readout.

You don't have to sell me on it Kevin, that is why I own/owned one, actually mine is full 3axis with 4th rotab. I was not questioning your decision for the 2 axis, LXCams was.

My point is that a cnc only mill without manual handwheel override, like the tormach, can be very limited in a job shop type environment.

That is an older, very basic controller on the prottrack, personally I would pass especially at that price and known track record of that machine. If it had one of the newer SMX (IIRC) controllers that would be different, but... actually it doesn't look like it even has a powered draw bar. I would highly consider retrofitting your current mill, because basically the only difference between the mill you have now and that mill is the addition of 2 axis CNC. Is that alone worth $5K to you?

Retrofitting your mill is IMHO going to be the best of all wolds. That is what I did. I bought a Clausing Kondia that had controller issues, so I got it SUPER cheap. Let me say this, if you think Clausing hard parts are expensive, wait till you price out older boards from them. Needless to say I couldn't afford the board the controller needed, so I parted out what was left of the controller and built a PC based controller that runs Linux CNC now, but originally ran Mach 3. I personally believe the clausing is a bit more rigid than the standard bridgport, but... It had a servo on the knee for milling ops as well as a servo on the spindle for peck drilling and boring ops.

Bullnerd.....do you have a Z axis reader and does the monitor support having the Z axis?

I'm not Bullnerd, but am pretty sure the controller will definitlay do z axis readout, but not z axis cnc controll. Not positive on that though, I have played with them quite a bit but can't recall off the top of my head. It does look like the quill scale is missing as you are correct, it will mount on the front of the depth stop nut.

 

[bullnerd]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Yes mine had the reader for z axis but I took it off, its really in the way in my opinion. I am used to using gage blocks on the quill stop, faster and more accurate. Its sitting in a drawer. Also not sure if it supports CNC capability.

I like how fast the prototraks can be programed at the machine. Dont have to run to a PC.

Mine is an Acer,was in very good condition,guy only did plastic and aluminum.I paid 3K with a cheap vise and phase-o-matic.

Heres a pic when I first got it.The kid wouldnt move, so I told her at least look like your working, so she grabbed the handle.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

carlton, mn
BRIDGEPORT SERIES 1 CNC 4 AXIS KNEE MILL WITH SHADOW CONTROL
up for auction bid is at 2400 right now ends in 8hrs.

Needs a little work by the looks of it but who am I to say never owned one.

http://rmn.craigslist.org/tld/3964310484.html
http://www.lots4bid.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?lotsfor17/1

Like I said earlier, mills seem to show up at other places but not around here. Any of the machine places that do have the used mills, you either get **** for $8000, or you're looking at $15-$20K.

3 axis or nothing in my opinion. Take your time and find the right one for yourself at the right price. Don't forget, tooling up is usually about 15 or 20% of the machine cost.
Does the controller for that Bridgeport have room for another axis later maybe?

Nasty....I know that tooling adds up quick. That's why I'd like to find something that takes R8 collets. I don't want to have to buy a bunch of Cat40's or anything along those lines. The controller on that Bridgeport I posted up, I'm fairly certain that it won't support a third axis later.

I do have an e-mail in to them about retrofitting my Lagun, although I think the price will be a little scary. If I sell my Lagun, I could probably recoup some of my cost on another mill but only by about $3k. I think I could get that out of the Lagun.

The other thing I was thinking was that if I did get something like the Tormach, I could keep the Lagun. I've got about half a dozen avenues I can go down.

And I don't need a huge machining center as I'm not going to start a business, but if someone needs something made, or if I want to make something for myself, I would have the capabilities to do so. I wish I could drop $20,000 on a machining center, but that's not going to happen unless I win the lottery. And the more that I have been thinking things over, I know what I can do on a two axis mill and it would cover 75% of the things I would probably do, but I really am leaning more towards a three axis as I know what I have done on those.

Also, whatever I end up getting, I don't want to have to put any work into it. I want something that is more along the lines of plug and play. I've ran quite a bit of Southwestern's ProtoTraks in both two and three axis. So I am very familiar with them, but I also know that everything is proprietary and if something happens, it will cost a chunk of change to fix. The mill above has two brand new Servos which were $1000 each, hence his price increase. I know when we had the pendant go out on our three axis, it was something like $5000 IIRC.

Like I said earlier, I have a little time on it and it's not like I have to make up my mind right this second or that he has anyone else looking at it. I'm just looking to get the best bang for the buck without having to put work into anything, if that makes sense. I wish I was in the place where both mentally and physically that I could start up a business and get the machines that I would want or need, but sadly, that's not going to happen in this lifetime.

And the more I think about it, maybe this mill isn't meant to be. I usually end up talking myself out of things and the more I think about this, and talking with everyone on here, it's getting to be where it doesn't feel right. The same thing happened when I ended up getting the Lagun mill. I was going to buy another mill but after talking to a few, and after thinking things over, I talked myself out of the first one, and withing a week the Lagun came up for sale. And it is a way better mill than the one I was first looking at. Like they say "**** happens for a reason"

And I want to thank everyone for their input on this. Whether some agree or disagree, everyone's input factors in to my final decision, and I greatly appreciate it. To some, dropping $8-$10 thousand may be nothing, to others, it may as well be a million. I'm in between, but I don't want to piss away money on something I'm not satisfied with.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Yes mine had the reader for z axis but I took it off, its really in the way in my opinion. I am used to using gage blocks on the quill stop, faster and more accurate. Its sitting in a drawer. Also not sure if it supports CNC capability.

I like how fast the prototraks can be programed at the machine. Dont have to run to a PC.

Mine is an Acer,was in very good condition,guy only did plastic and aluminum.I paid 3K with a cheap vise and phase-o-matic.

Heres a pic when I first got it.The kid wouldnt move, so I told her at least look like your working, so she grabbed the handle.

Bullnerd......The readers for the "Z" does come in handy, but I know what you mean about it being in the road. I pinched my fingers many times on it until I got pissed and made a Spider Handle with a long hub. The hub was probably 6" long or so and made it out past the reader. Something to think about. Even if you don't use the reader on the "Z", a spider handle is really nice over using a single handle.

 

[Spencyg]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I wouldn't waste my time with 2 axis CNC control, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time with Prototrak controls. Further, an old bridgeport with a 2J head is pretty flimsy for any CNC operations. I've run Tormach units and they are built well and use good PC controls. I've been a Mach3 user for a decade and I'd take it over a 10-15 year old Prototrak control any day of the week. If you are hell bent on the Prototrak unit I wouldn't part with ANY MORE than $2500 for it. $8k is highway robbery.

 

[bullnerd]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Hey Spenc can you post some pics of your setup with the mach3?

 

[chadman]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Kevin54, I am know the guy that has that Bridgeport with the ProtoTrak you are looking at. As soon as you posted about it needing two servos and I saw you were from Ohio I figured it was the one. Then I saw the pics and was sure. It is a clean machine.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

Forgot to mention, cnc means your machine needs ball screws. A must! Some retrofits don't include that tiny essential detail...

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I just emailed the guy a little bit ago and told him I was going to pass on it. I'm going to hold out for a 3 axis mill. I know in the long run that I'd be happier with a 3 axis. I've kicked it around in my head and discussed it with the wife and basically talked myself out of it, along with all of you guy's help I know that I would be happy with it, but then again I wouldn't because it isn't a 3 axis. And when we first talked about it, the mill was cheaper than it is now, but then again, he didn't know the other Servo motor was bad.

Maybe by the time winter rolls around and I can't do anything outside, I may possibly tackle retrofitting the Lagun I have myself. Or then again, maybe that there is a three axis with my name on it out there somewhere.

And again, I want to thank everyone for their input, whether in agreement or in disagreement with some of my thinking. That's what makes this a great site. But if anyone does see that killer deal out there, let me know.

I owe you guys a beer for helping me decide

 

[bobadame]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

One thing to keep in mind. You mentioned that with cnc you won't need a rotary table. That's not necessarily true. The size of arc you can cut on a cnc mill is limited by the amount of y travel it has so if you have a rotary table, hang on to it.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

One thing to keep in mind. You mentioned that with cnc you won't need a rotary table. That's not necessarily true. The size of arc you can cut on a cnc mill is limited by the amount of y travel it has so if you have a rotary table, hang on to it.

You're more limited on the size of an arc you can cut on a rotary table more so than you are with a CNC. If you want to cut a piece of aluminum for example that is 12" long and 6" wide, and you want to put a 150" radius on one side of it, you cannot do it with a rotary table, it would have to be cut using a CNC.

 

[Trucky]

Sure you can... using a good set of files, a few cases of beer, and LOTS of prep time and actual time "working".

 

[bullnerd]

Good decision Kev.

Come Spenc...lets see some pics.

 

[justanengineer]

Kevin, just a thought since machines in the area youre looking in tend to be expensive - Ive often found a road trip is well worth it. Being in Ohio, theres quite a few major cities within 6 or so hours in any direction, make use of them. IIRC youre retired and own a pickemup. Add $100 for fuel, a rented/borrowed/begged trailer at $50/day, a seller with a forklift or other means to load, and a wrecker boom at $50 to unload/rig into the shop, and you can go quite a distance without spending much. On a purchase this size, you might save thousands. Additionally, trips have proven great bonding times w/SWMBO due to the time for talking (she love to "talk") and the craft fairs/other girl stuff/restaurants along the way.....I get a willing driver and points for doing "girly" things.

A want ad over on the practicalmachinist or the hobbyist boards might get you a few nibbles that lead to a pleasant surprise. I regularly see requests for folks to inspect and photograph machines, so you never know how things come up. My current Bport came from a tip posted on the homeshopmachinistbbs.net board two years ago about a dealer closing shop. 2.5 hours each way was well worth it.

Irregardless, keep your chin up and youll find your dream machine.

 

[bobadame]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

You're more limited on the size of an arc you can cut on a rotary table more so than you are with a CNC. If you want to cut a piece of aluminum for example that is 12" long and 6" wide, and you want to put a 150" radius on one side of it, you cannot do it with a rotary table, it would have to be cut using a CNC.

Ok, I should have said a complete circle. Actually there is a way to do it by mounting the rotary table on a remote stand but that makes about as much sense as making a 300" diameter circle one pie section at a time with a cnc mill.

 

[Ign]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I was just thinking about all this as I was working.............I drill a lot of aluminum flat bar, holes are either 1.5" deep with a #21 or 2.5" deep with a 9/64" (the latter really kinda *****). I'm doing a run of 460 holes right now, and even w parabolics I gotta peck drill at least a little. I've SO OFTEN wished for a peck drill cycle as I can do 10 bars at a time in the vise so it'd be peck drill cycle, move Y, repeat. I'd still have to babysit the machine to make sure the bits don't walk at the start......altho hell if I had a quick change holder I could spot them all first. There's a concept!

Point being, without a quill servo a CNC machine would be of little use to me.

 

[StumpXJ]

My buddy has a Tormach in his garage. Its a phenominal machine for the price point. Hard to beat really. Ive used it many times myself in making parts to convert my little mill to CNC. After my conversion, I wish I had just added a little more $ and gotten a new Tormach.

 

[bullnerd]

Re: Calling all machinist...I need help with a decision

I wouldn't waste my time with 2 axis CNC control, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time with Prototrak controls. Further, an old bridgeport with a 2J head is pretty flimsy for any CNC operations. I've run Tormach units and they are built well and use good PC controls. I've been a Mach3 user for a decade and I'd take it over a 10-15 year old Prototrak control any day of the week. If you are hell bent on the Prototrak unit I wouldn't part with ANY MORE than $2500 for it. $8k is highway robbery.

Any pics of your machine SPence? I'm interested in how you run the Mach3 to the machine.

 

[toolchaser]

I ran a 2 axis proto-trak in cnc school fitted to a bridgeport copy by TRAC. It was actually beefier than a BP. As far as the controls go the conversational program was very good, sort of fill in the blanks & you could link programs together. Of course you could upload from a cad/cam (we used Mastercam)

 

[saabman]

I have 4 axis control on my (4th axis a a cnc 8 inch rotary table). Even a manual rotary table (with chuck) is good for work holding in a CNC world. Keep in mind that when budgetting you will want mach3 or similar to drive the machine, and a cad/cam program do design and create g code tool paths.

 

[Kevin54]

I have 4 axis control on my (4th axis a a cnc 8 inch rotary table). Even a manual rotary table (with chuck) is good for work holding in a CNC world. Keep in mind that when budgetting you will want mach3 or similar to drive the machine, and a cad/cam program do design and create g code tool paths.

I've ran CNC's for a number of years. Mostly though it was using SmartCam for the drawing and coding. If the program had to be altered manually, it was using G-Codes. I really did like ProtoTrak because everything was in the Conversational mode. I could actually draw up my designs in 2D, and program it into the mill faster than most could design a part on SmartCam, code it, and send it to the mill.

It was kind of a ***** where I worked because our boss of the Toolroom, kept things to where we couldn't surpass him. He refused to let each of us Toolmaker's get a seat for SmartCam on our computers. There was one illegal seat on one outdated computer. You had to literally go in and change the date on the computer and make it an earlier time so the seat would work. I went to his boss and told him we needed a couple of more seats to make our jobs more efficient. When he questioned my boss, he said he was working on getting us each a seat, which he wasn't. So instead of fighting about it for more years, I just said fukkit. There were four of us in the Toolroom. One was scared to death of anything to do with a computer. With the other two, One shouldn't have even been a Toolmaker as he did not understand anything about designing any tools or dies, but would pick up a job that didn't amount to any more than squaring a plate up and putting in a few holes, but thought he had to draw every single thing on SmartCam, and the other one didn't understand SmartCam, so what would take maybe an hour for anyone, would take him a week or so to draw up. So I designed my stuff in 2D, got the figures I needed off of that, then punched in the numbers by hand.

I guess I was lucky in the aspect that I could see parts differently than the others, and I didn't let a part or fixture intimidate me like they did. Plus when they were sitting at the computer, meant that they didn't have to stand at a mill. Some of the people at our shop actually worked harder at trying to find things to do to **** off than it would have been if they just jumped in and did their job. I could rant about that for hours as it just flat out pissed me off. One guy I was training, every time you turned your back, either he was on his cell phone or he was e-mailing his wife. The worst thing our shop ever did was to make every computer, internet accessible. With me, the internet was a tool and I used it for ordering perishable tooling, e-mail businesses, and corresponding with engineers at our other plant. The coworkers.......

Anyways...Sorry about getting off on that tangent which I seem to do if I start thinking about the shop. I've decided to hold out for a three axis mill, and nothing less. I tend to be somewhat impatient when I get something on my mind, and I need to realize that if I don't have it today, there is always tomorrow. I still need to get the garage arranged where I want it, and I am thinking about building a bumpout if I find someone reasonable to do the heavy stuff, as I can't. That will be the concrete work and the roof. The wife and I can do the other. And it's not going to be a large bumpout, but maybe 6' or 8' out and maybe 12'-16' wide. With doing that, I can get my toolboxes in there and possibly build a bench like Steevo's bench. That will free up some floor space. I can then move the Lagun mill and my Jet lathe over to the other side of the garage, and that will free up the large side of my garage for parking, plus room to park my compact utility tractor.

Sometimes I'm worse than a woman when it comes to things as I can change my mind if I think about things a little, or after I do something, I can see where I can improve on it, and that just gets me into more work and money. My dad was the same way. At times I think it's a curse.

But like I said above, and again I want to thank you guys for the input, I'm going to hold off on a three axis until one pops up on the internet, or until I find the one that I really want. That's just like this mill I have now.....I always wanted a mill, just about jumped on one until I got to talking with a few others, and eventually talked myself out of it with a little help from members on here, then this Lagun come up, so I bought it. Which I'm glad that I was talked out of the first one as this Lagun is a hell of a lot better. So for most things, I can get by using the Lagun, but I'm still missing out on what a three axis will do. I'll eventually get to where I want as far as machinery, and hopefully I'll get past some of the impatience that I have always had.