Calling all vintage jack gurus: B.G. Engineering floor jack

[Nutria]

I was just given this BG jack, and I'm beginning the usual early project assessment. There seems to be very little information available on BG jacks, and what little I've found has been here at GJ in some threads from about ten years ago. This one is a Model A2, 1.5T. It's an interesting little jack: aluminum handle yoke, saddle pad, and wheels. Wheels are fixed. I need to top up the oil for a start, but it does jack (slowly) and hold weight.




There are some remarkably knowledgeable folks on the board, and I'd welcome any intel on these jacks. In particular:

Does anyone have an exploded parts diagram and list for a BG jack, A2 or otherwise? I know that they are out there, because there's been just a bit of discussion of a BG parts diagram. In the first thread (by Bull), there are even a couple of partial photos of a parts diagram/list halfway down the first page-- just enough to be a tease, ugh! I'm not sure if a pdf was ever made or where it might be. And I think that heathkik, in the second thread, was working on one of these jacks as well, but unfortunately the images seem to be broken (I've posted a bunch of images here, so that we have a good record of one of these jacks). And there's another mention about the parts diagram in the third thread.

Blackhawk Hydraulic Repair/Parts Catalog

To me it's like gold. I picked up a complete Blackhawk Repair Parts Manual from 1961. It contains exploded diagrams, parts lists, and photos for the entire line of bottle jacks, trans jacks, end lifts, service jacks, and the Porto-Power stuff. Heck, it even has the fluorescent ship light that...

www.garagejournal.com

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/unknown-floor-jack.79266/#post-1136759

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/steve-bryants-blackhawk-jack-thread.101909/page-3

 

[TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac]

I'm usually quite good at finding information on the internet but I couldn't find any posts/information that isn't on this site. Those schematic pictures are a tease, hopefully, someone here can upload all of them for you...

 

[Nutria]

Hey, thanks for having a look around for me. I think that the main issue with this one is the pump. The jack lifts and holds weight well, but doesn't make much progress per pump. I've bled air a bunch of times, and that helped a bit, but ~35 pumps are still needed to get to full height.

So, that probably leaves the pump seal. Unfortunately, the pump may have been intended to be replaced as an assembly, similar to some Hein-Werner jacks. I've removed the seal retaining nut and washer, but the seal doesn't pull easily, and there is no snap ring to get at things from the other end (it's crimped). So, I'm looking around for potential pump assemblies that might work as well as some way or removing that seal without trashing it for now. The last photo gives a decent look at the seal with the nut and washer removed and the spring compressed.

Thoughts welcome!

 

[TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac]

Hey, thanks for having a look around for me. I think that the main issue with this one is the pump. The jack lifts and holds weight well, but doesn't make much progress per pump. I've bled air a bunch of times, and that helped a bit, but ~35 pumps are still needed to get to full height.

So, that probably leaves the pump seal. Unfortunately, the pump may have been intended to be replaced as an assembly, similar to some Hein-Werner jacks. I've removed the seal retaining nut and washer, but the seal doesn't pull easily, and there is no snap ring to get at things from the other end (it's crimped). So, I'm looking around for potential pump assemblies that might work as well as some way or removing that seal without trashing it for now. The last photo gives a decent look at the seal with the nut and washer removed and the spring compressed.

Thoughts welcome!

My Blackhawk S-4 is in a similar situation, it doesn't make a lot of progress once it reaches a load, It may just be the ratio of the main ram to plunger...

In your case, it's possible the seal is leaking and is losing most of its stroke... do the check balls and seats seem to be in good condition? Perhaps it's leaking some through an overload valve if it has one? It would be helpful if there were schematics to review I've never seen a removable pump like that, I would wait for some more inputs, it may be serviceable or interchangeable with another one...

 

[thehorse13]

One of these BG jacks turned up on Ebay a while ago. The seller was in the same boat as the OP. If search engines are showing you no love, I'd move on to patent searches and then incorporation records in California. Somewhere there will be a paper trail.

Seal kits are what usually fix your issue. Finding one for this jack will be a formidable challenge. I'd ask a hydraulic rebuilt company to take a look at it. Maybe they can come up with seals or make new ones. The service will likely run a few hundred bucks.

 

[sportfan]

I not really much of a tool collector. But are old tools like this jack more valuable like they are or restored to look like new?

 

[thehorse13]

I not really much of a tool collector. But are old tools like this jack more valuable like they are or restored to look like new?

It greatly depends on the brand/model. Most people here would say that restoring them is a hobby/passion and they realize they will never get their money back out of the item. Again, there are some exceptions to this rule.

 

[Nutria]

My Blackhawk S-4 is in a similar situation, it doesn't make a lot of progress once it reaches a load, It may just be the ratio of the main ram to plunger...

In the case of this BG jack, there's little progress whether or not there is load.

 

[Nutria]

In your case, it's possible the seal is leaking and is losing most of its stroke... do the check balls and seats seem to be in good condition?

The seal is my guess as well. The threaded brass rod that carries the seal does seem to be cocked to one side, and I think that the off-axis seal may not be seating in the bore squarely.

I do need to have a look at the check balls. The retainer isn't too user friendly, but I agree that I need to get in there.

I've never seen a removable pump like that

There are a few out there. At least some Hein-Werner jacks have assemblies that are similar, though they, quite sensibly, have a snap ring on the end that holds the assembly together for easy service. The Hein-Werner version that I've seen is too big in both length and threaded diameter to use with this BG.

That end crimp on my BG may be serving in place of a snap ring, and if I can remove the end crimp, I imagine that the piston and seal(s) will be free for inspection. I obviously need to take it easy with that end piece though, so that I can get the reassembled. I'm going to check tonight and see if it doesn't actually slide sideways, like a snap ring.

 

[Nutria]

One of these BG jacks turned up on Ebay a while ago. The seller was in the same boat as the OP. If search engines are showing you no love, I'd move on to patent searches and then incorporation records in California. Somewhere there will be a paper trail.

Horse, that's interesting. I didn't turn that up on a sold/completed search at eBay, but I'll check again. I did try a quick patent search, but I need to dig in harder on that. And that's a good idea about incorporation records in California. It also seems that pdfs of the BG schematics probably got made eleven years ago as a result of the earlier threads and are present in the GJ community. But, maybe not.

Seal kits are what usually fix your issue. Finding one for this jack will be a formidable challenge.

You're right. I've contacted several helpful hydraulic specialists, but so far no one has an existing seal kit-- not surprising given the age and obscurity. But when I get into the pump, I'll have dimensions that will hopefully match up with something that's out there.

 

[Nutria]

I not really much of a tool collector. But are old tools like this jack more valuable like they are or restored to look like new?

sportfan, I don't think that this particular jack is going to be valuable (to anyone but me) either as is or restored. And for me, "restoration" is usually about grime and rust removal and most of all, complete function, not making something look like new. I prefer that old tools look like old tools, although I respect and appreciate all of the spectacular restorations that include repainting, polishing, etc. I don't collect tools, but I like the stuff that I use to be old and interesting whenever possible.

It greatly depends on the brand/model. Most people here would say that restoring them is a hobby/passion and they realize they will never get their money back out of the item. Again, there are some exceptions to this rule.

Yes, I agree. An important part of this stuff for me is the person and history behind the tool. In the current case, this jack belonged to a neat older fellow (meaning ten years older than me) who has done a lot of car restorations but isn't doing too well now. He has a bunch of other (working) jacks, and he gave me this one in its current state. I'd like to get it working, and if he'd like it back, I'll give it to him. If not, it will be really useful for me.

I've always liked restoring and using old tools. My wife and I lost our home and shop in a wildfire about seven years ago. When the initial flurry of demolition, insurance negotiation, and rebuild settled down, finding and restoring old stuff was a great way to stretch the contents part of the insurance as I replaced tools and a lot of fun too. So, I'm doing even more work with old stuff now.

 

[paulsomlo]

I not really much of a tool collector. But are old tools like this jack more valuable like they are or restored to look like new?

There's really no market in "vintage" floor jacks", especially outside the confines of GJ. I see them on CL/FB Mktplc all the time, ambitious prices initially, but they quickly drop to half, then down from there.

Dealing with jacks like that, where there's no readily available seal kits, requires tear down, calipers to measure, and sometimes, a lathe.

 

[Nutria]

Update. Hiball steered me in the right direction, no surprise there.

The cap was sort of jammed into the outer sleeve, and I was using too light of a touch. Last night I compressed the assembly, and the pin that I was missing was just below the cap.

The seal has two parts. It looks like the outer part is leather or a delrin-kinda plastic. It has straight sides, but may well have been a flared cup before wear. The inner seal is rubber. Maybe it was designed to flare the cup slightly, dunno. The cup is 0.500" in diameter.

The threaded brass rod is bent, and it looks like that led to uneven wear of the seals. I'll straighten the rod today and work on finding a seal replacement.



There is also some wear in the seat in the reservoir housing from that bent rod. The photo below is crummy, but you can see some dishing, mostly at five o'clock. I guess that might give me some trouble in terms of making a good seal. If so, I can try some reconstructive surgery with JB Weld.

 

[paulsomlo]

Strange collection of seals - if I had only the pics to go by, I'd say the larger one is leather, and the smaller one is a rubber piston seal that's been repurposed as a spreader.

The wear in what you're referring to as the "reservoir housing" - that's not a critical area, I would think. The seal travel should be confined to the threaded cylinder that you removed. Were there check balls down there?

 

[Nutria]

Paul, thanks, you're right, that larger seal sure looks like leather, could also be a softish plastic. And I think that you're correct about the smaller rubber seal functioning as a spreader.

Based the small part of a parts diagram that I was able to see from an earlier thread, I think that there should be a single check ball and a short spring. I can see the ball. I haven't tried to budge the retainer yet to check them out.

 

[Nutria]

Stamping on bottom of reservoir may indicate "Sept 1951." Or not. The "SEP" and "51" stamping is the same by eyeball; The differences don't show up as well in the photo.

 

[paulsomlo]

That's a pretty unique design on the hydraulics. I'm not sure that those markings are going to do you any good - did Hiball tell you to call Steve at HPS?

 

[Nutria]

That's a pretty unique design on the hydraulics. I'm not sure that those markings are going to do you any good - did Hiball tell you to call Steve at HPS?

He did, and I've been in contact with Steve for the past few days. I just sent Steve some seal and hardware images with dimensions. Hopefully he'll have a seal/seals for me.

My speculation on the stampings is really just for my own entertainment. A manufacture date of 1951 seems plausible-- it was around the time that manufacturers started using aluminum for lots of stuff. I'm not sure that the components that BG chose to make from aluminum make the most sense-- saddle, wheels, and yoke, all high wear areas. The yoke is a bit wallowed from the handle, but I'll shim it.

 

[paulsomlo]

Have you gotten a look inside the main cylinder yet?

 

[Nutria]

Have you gotten a look inside the main cylinder yet?

No, not yet. And I've been thinking that I may not, given that there's no leak, and the jack lifts and holds weight well. I am curious though.

 

[Nutria]

More possible date stamps on top of lift arm were visible after grunge removal.

 

[Nutria]

Lift arm and funky aluminum saddle.

 

[Nutria]

Were there check balls down there?

Based the small part of a parts diagram that I was able to see from an earlier thread, I think that there should be a single check ball and a short spring. I can see the ball. I haven't tried to budge the retainer yet to check them out.

I wonder if a slot or some other way of removing the check ball retainer wore away from damage by the pump piston. Those two cutouts in the retainer seem to go all the way through. The cutouts are off-center and were not milled the same. Looks a bit like work by a previous owner, but for a micro pin spanner with very long pins? Oil passages? I sure don't see a good way to remove the retainer.

I wouldn't mind getting in there, because I can't see the spring that should be sitting on top of the visible ball. But, as per lots of other discussions on the board, the spring shouldn't matter that much. And the spring may be there.

 

[Nutria]

Here's just a bit of intel on this jack. This is from a post by Bull, I think way back in 2010. If anyone has the entire diagram, it would be great to have it available.

 

[Nutria]

Have you gotten a look inside the main cylinder yet?

Yes, here's a look. Replacement seals on the way.

 

[Nutria]

Why settle for a single fill plug when you can have two? There is a sort of "bulkhead" on either side of the cylinder in the reservoir. There is at least one port on the lower part of each bulkhead, such that oil can flow from one side to the other. So, I don't know why there would be two (large) fill plugs . . . interesting though.

 

[Nutria]

Cone-style release and a not-user-friendly bypass adjustment screw on the bottom of the reservoir. A 12 pt socket works, kinda.

 

[paulsomlo]

Not sure I would muck with the bypass - if you do, you'll need to get it set back to where it was. Inside the pump, that does look like a seat that unscrews with a small face spanner. The main cylinder seal appears to be the same arrangement as the pump - a leather seal with a rubber expander. After seeing the diagram, I take back what I said about a rubber piston seal repurposed as a spreader - that appears to be the design.

Have you tried messaging Bull to see if he has the entire drawing?

 

[Nutria]

Thanks Paul. I agree, I don't plan to dismantle the bypass. If I do get in there at some later date, I'll count turns as per a number of thread discussions.

Those seat cuouts are strange-- the holes don't sit across the diameter of the seat, which seems an odd way to have milled them. The holes are 5/32" apart and sit 5/8" within the threaded seat bore, which makes for a low-leverage situation. None of my pin spanners would work, and I made a little spanner to have a go at it. I didn't push it when the seat didn't budge though; doesn't seem critical to get in there at this time.

Yep, the pump and ram seals are the same configuration and materials.

I did try messaging Bull, but I got this message: "You may not start a conversation with the following recipients: Bull."

Here's the low-res version of the full diagram for a BG Model A-1 and Bull's original thread. So close and yet so far.

Blackhawk Hydraulic Repair/Parts Catalog

To me it's like gold. I picked up a complete Blackhawk Repair Parts Manual from 1961. It contains exploded diagrams, parts lists, and photos for the entire line of bottle jacks, trans jacks, end lifts, service jacks, and the Porto-Power stuff. Heck, it even has the fluorescent ship light that...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[paulsomlo]

I agree - unless the jack was filled with sludge, probably can leave the seat intact.

I'll see if I can find anything out regarding Bull's whereabouts - he hasn't posted in a long time.

 

[Nutria]

Thanks. Hope he's ok.

 

[Nutria]

The jack is back in service, thanks to those who contributed to this thread and Hiball, who answered a bunch of questions via pm. The problem was that the pump check valve wasn't seating due to leather cup fragments that had become plastered to the seat. The check valve retainers on this jack are staked in place, which makes access to the balls and springs difficult to say the least. I was able to get some fine, 60-degree forceps through the retainer hole and past the ball to rummage around the seat, and found and removed the compacted leather fragments. Good to go.

 

[Nutria]

Footnote 1: My wife's heavy glass vase made an excellent crimping die for the leather ram cup, but don't tell her. Smooth sides, no seam, and a good angle.

 

[Nutria]

Footnote 2: There aren't many of these BG jacks around; the photos below are the only images I've seen of another one. They are from a recent Marketplace listing. This one seems to have the logo cast into the yoke. Included here as a potential resource for others.

 

[Nutria]

Footnote 3: There is a Norco-BG Engineering connection. While I was poking around, looking for info, I found a parts diagram for a Norco BG-A2. The jack I've been overhauling is a BG Engineering Model A2 (!?) So what was up with that?

I contacted Norco, and they were super helpful. One fellow there had been with the company for 40 years or so, and he knew the story. Seems that when BG folded, BG sold a bunch of unused parts to Norco, who was also manufacturing hydraulic jacks in Los Angeles. Norco used these parts in a jack, the BG-A2, which is identical to the BG Engineering Model A2 in some ways, but different in others. Interestingly, the Norco jack was rated to 1-1/4 ton, versus the BG Engineering jack, which has a 1-1/2 ton rating.

The Norco parts diagram is attached in case it's useful to someone else down the road.