Calling electricians another sub panel thread

[Mech55]

Currently my detached garage is fed from a 40amp breaker in my panel in the house, which is full, so full I have a sub panel off of that that have about 6 circuits in it. I want / need more power to the detached garage, which is about 53ft away. The wire feeding the sub panel in the detached garage is 6ga. (direct burry) so I am probably good up to about 60 or 70 amps if I want to change that.

What i would like is 100amps available for the garage, 70 would probably be fine but I want to add a 30amp RV outlet as well so the extra would be nice and since I have to get a gas line out there anyways and I will be trenching.

I have had 3 different electricians look at this and 2 are of the opinion I can add 100amp breaker to the main panel and run new wire and the 3rd said I would be better off changing the pedestal and pulling the 100amps off the pedestal after the meter and running it that way.

I don't really care about changing the pedestal but it is set in concrete and recessed into the brick a bit so not really simple.

So you probably guessed my question, who is right? I like the pedestal option just because my panel is so full already but it is a ton of work and $$ compared to the other option. Not only do I want what is right and is up to code but I want was is safe, both from harm of my family and house to products in my house.

For code stuff I am in McHenry County in ILL., if that helps anyone.

Thanks for in advance.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well if none of them did a load calc, then they couldnt know for sure.

What are your loads in the house? any large electric loads?

Have you done a load calc?

 

[Terry D]

Post pictures of what you have now. What size is you existing service. I don't understand what you mean by a pedestal. Are you referring to meter/main with space to add a few circuits. To me, a pedestal is the PoCo's splice box for distribution to underground services

 

[Mech55]

Ok first no load calculations were done so you are correct but I can tell you that it is well over 200amp service. I will total up all the breakers and report back. The biggest loads are the well, AC, jet tub in master bath, electric baseboard heater in bathroom (not used very often) and electric heater in the attached garage but I am thinking of replacing that with a natural gas forced air.

2nd the pedestal being the box outside the house that the meter is on, see the attached pic. The one electrician seems to think even though I have 200amp service he can branch off there and run 100 amps to the garage.

Attached are pics of the current setup

1st pic is the pedestal and the last pic is the box in the detached garage.

Really appreciate you guys taking a look and repling

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[Terry D]

You cant just add up the breakers to do a load calc. It will add up way more than 200. Is your house all electric, or do you have gas appliances. Main thing is do you have electric heat. You would have to give us a list of all your major 240 volt loads and sq footage of the house. Do you have a sub panel in the garage plus a 240 circuit for heat out there. You are only allowed one feed to a building. If the load calculation allows more loads to be added, then I don't see why you could not move 2 circuits from your main panel to your sub panel and install a 100 amp breaker in your main to feed your new garage sub panel.

I see what you mean by a pedestal, Those are not common here. We just use a underground meter base.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

it looks like its just a meter pan. If so only way to run an additional feeder off of it is if there is dual lugs. but running unfused wire on a property is a not a good idea

 

[Zeke]

You don't give us the capacity of the house sub panel or how it's fed. Can you not move something from the main panel to the house sub and then run your properly sized cable to the garage sub from the main?

You probably don't need 100 amps in the garage even with the 30 amp 120v RV circuit. Are you going to sit in the RV with the A/C on while the garage is in full swing?

it looks like its just a meter pan. If so only way to run an additional feeder off of it is if there is dual lugs. but running unfused wire on a property is a not a good idea

Obviously a good observation and therefore I vote for the 2 electricians' thoughts.

 

[Mech55]

Ok so here is a bit more information.

Main panel 240 circuits

A/C - 60amps
Well - 20 amps
Oven - 20amps
Sub panel ( house) - 30amps
Sub panel ( detached garage) - 40amps

Sub panel (house) 240 circuits

Master bath heater - 20 amps (rarely used)
Attached garage heater - 20 amps


Obviously if I run a new line to the Detached garage I will have to abandon the existing and because I need to run a gas line I am considering running the electrical.

The heater in the attached garage will be replaced with a gas forced air so that 240 line in the house sub panel will most likely become a 110 15 or 20amp. Other additional future up grades may include a double oven so I would have to add on on top of what I have now as well as possible above ground pool.

In the detached garage with the existing wiring I have been told I could pull up to 60- 70amps safely, it is 6ga direct burry and about 55 feet.

What I am looking to run ( not all at once but the potential loads are)

Compressor 240v 15amp
Lathe 240v 15amp
Lift 240v 20amp
Welder 110 20amp
RV 110, 30amp

The rest will be lights, drill press, chargers, tools, etc.

So most likely I would be ok with the existing feed if I updated the breaker in the panel to 60 or 70 ( need to get the wire specs) but considering adding more possible amps for future stuff and because I am trenching a line.

Hope this info helps, thanks for all the feed back.

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[Mech55]

Forgot to add a few things house sqft is 3200, gas for stove (oven is different) hot water and heat.

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[Zeke]

Yeah, your kitchen oven circuit is weak if you plan on a dbl oven. 40 to 50 amps on 8 ga. or #6, respectively. Read the spec sheet before you buy. Things are supposed to be getting more energy efficient.

But that won't take up any more panel space, just power.

 

[Mech55]

So finally got a chance to open my panel and look at the wire that runs to the detached Garage. It is 6ga as I originally thought but not sure what the amp rating would be. Any input on the max amp breaker I can put on this with about 55-60 run?



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[wyliesdiesels]

70a breaker if the load is not over 65a.

 

[brewchief]

I don't see a ground wire, is it in metal conduit the whole way? You said direct bury before, I'm pretty sure thwn wire isn't rated as direct bury.

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[Mech55]

As far as I know it is direct burry but I am going off what the old home owner had said, in the detached garage it comes through the concrete in conduit but he said he only did that for coming threw the concrete.

Guys only way to really know if it is right or not is to run it myself.

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[Mech55]

Definitely no ground wire running out with it I will pull the sub panel door and see where the ground is

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[wyliesdiesels]

yeah THWN is not direct bury rated but if its in metal conduit the entire run then that is your EGC

 

[teamextreme]

yeah THWN is not direct bury rated but if its in metal conduit the entire run then that is your EGC

And if it's metal conduit run underground I can pretty much guarantee there's nothing left of it and you have no ground if it's been installed for more than 5 years or so.

 

[Mech55]

So upon further inspection just outside the house there is a plastic junction box and from there it goes under ground. At that point it is changed to the direct bury.

Here are pics inside the sub panel in the detached garage and there is a found wire coming in at that point as well. Not a 100%where the ground is coming from but I think it might be tied to the ground for the AC unit where it exits the house.

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[wyliesdiesels]

The ground wire would go to grounding electrode which is required. Not sure why it would go to an AC unit that is at the house if this is a subpanel in a detached structure

you should verify that it goes to ground rods.

If it instead goes to a bonding point somewhere, then you have a potential for shock due to it being tied to the neutral bar.

 

[brewchief]

The ground wire would go to grounding electrode which is required. Not sure why it would go to an AC unit that is at the house if this is a subpanel in a detached structure

you should verify that it goes to ground rods.

If it instead goes to a bonding point somewhere, then you have a potential for shock due to it being tied to the neutral bar.

I wonder if instead of going to a ground electrode if that ground wire in sub is part of a 6-3 uf cable, it looks smaller. Where the wire enters the sub it looks like s bit of the cable jacket might be showing, or possibly some paper wrapping and it's not uf cable but instead nm. It's possible that the conduit from the main to the junction box is providing a proper ground conductor and then it was switched to a uf cable for the underground portion and its simply not wired correctly at the sub and there are no ground rods or other electrode.

A pic of the junction box opened up might help.

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[Mech55]

So thanks for all the input from you guys and help. So I am going to run the 60amps I currently have available and if I need to upgrade in the future I will and the box I have will work.

So far I have changed out the box for a 20position/ 40 circuit sub panel. I have the 4 previous circuits install plus my 30amp /120v receptacle for my camper. I have my compressor about 85% wired, ran out of black 10AWG, need to run about 15ft for one line and then finish my connections at the box

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[teamextreme]

It looks like the green bonding screw is installed. That needs to be removed.
You said in an earlier post that the EMT leaving the main panel (with no ground) converts to PVC underground. I see no ground wire coming in with the feeders, which means this panel has no ground!
I also don't see any grounding electrode conductors going out to your required 2 ground rods. You never answered Wylies question about it having ground rods. It appears it doesn't.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah youve got some issues here.

Bonded neutral and no ground wire.

Where did the ground wire in the old panel go? The one that looks burnt or overheated on the top part of the bar?

You also dont have a GEC for grounding electrodes

 

[brewchief]

Detached build needs a main breaker or other means of disconnect if over 6 throws to turn off all power.

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[Mech55]

Been out of town for a and just ******* with things but looked for the grounding wire when the feeders come out of the house and go into the PCV. So the ground is coming from my main in the house, it is through the conduit in the house then a wire tied to that when it exits the house and is in pvc.

As for the ground wire being burnt it is the the picture it isn't burnt at all it is only a little tarnish like copper can get.

So now that we have established where the ground is coming from I have a couple questions.

Do I need to un-bond the neutral and the ground and just make sure the box is grounded?

I was under the impression that the 60amp I put in the main panel in the house is my disconnect and I don't need one in the sub panel itself, is this correct?

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[Mech55]

Oh and since the ground is coming from the main do I need separate grounding electrodes? I was under the impression that you only could have your ground coming from on source. If I need more I can just sink a rod and add it that is no big deal.

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[wyliesdiesels]

Been out of town for a and just ******* with things but looked for the grounding wire when the feeders come out of the house and go into the PCV. So the ground is coming from my main in the house, it is through the conduit in the house then a wire tied to that when it exits the house and is in pvc.

As for the ground wire being burnt it is the the picture it isn't burnt at all it is only a little tarnish like copper can get.

So now that we have established where the ground is coming from I have a couple questions.

Do I need to un-bond the neutral and the ground and just make sure the box is grounded?

I was under the impression that the 60amp I put in the main panel in the house is my disconnect and I don't need one in the sub panel itself, is this correct?

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yes the neutral needs to be isolated. otherwise, as you have it now, it creates a shock potential.

Any grounds on the neutral bar need to be moved over to a ground bar. you may need to purchase this.

A main disconnect is required at the structure if the subpanel has more than 6 breaker handles. The feeder breaker in the main service panel does not count for the main disconnect requirement in the subpanel.

One question on the wire though. wire does it transition from THWN to UF-B? The ungrounded conductors in your panel are black and the wire going underground is black and red.

Oh and since the ground is coming from the main do I need separate grounding electrodes? I was under the impression that you only could have your ground coming from on source. If I need more I can just sink a rod and add it that is no big deal.

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yes you need 2 ground rods. your impression is incorrect. EGCs/ground wires do not serve the same purpose as grounding electrodes. you need both

put in 2 8' ground rods spaced 6' or more apart. connect with solid bare #6 cu. The wire goes to the ground bar not the neutral bar

 

[pattenp]

If the cable is UF the jacket sould have entered the panel and not have been stripped back to where it exits the LB to go underground. The unjacked conductors should not enter the wall from the LB without the jacket and a proper bushing or clamp at the panel.

 

[nadogail]

I had a long talk with my kitchen remodel contractor and used his favorite Electrical Sub and got the job done quickly and at a very competitive price. Our main panel and service entrance was in a day. The sub panel in the house was done on a following Saturday.

He charged me about what he would make working two days on a construction job as a Journeyman. I supplied the material from Home Depot where I get a 10% discount as a Veteran.

 

[walrus]

If the cable is UF the jacket sould have entered the panel and not have been stripped back to where it exists the LB to go underground. The unjacked conductors should not enter the wall from the LB without the jacket and a proper bushing or clamp at the panel.

Probably shouldn't go thru that piece of 3/4 emt without being attached(somehow?) to that pvc LB either.

 

[Mech55]

So the wires are a direct burry cable. What you can't see is in the PVC is the cable is jacketed all the way up, ground and all because at the end of the PVC it is direct burry it is not in conduit all the way. In the detached garage it comes up through in a "flattened" metal conduit. So I don't believe there is anything wrong with the what the Aries are run from the house to the garage I just don't think you guys can see the whole picture, this was already done by the previous owner / builder and signed off by the county.

Now I believe I do have to add the additional grounding rods etc.

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[Mech55]

The ground coming from the house is undersized so let me ask a question. When I add my 2 grounding rods and I connect those with min #6wire is that good enough or do I need to run a new ground back to the house?

Also with the 2 grounding rods do they have to have their own wire back to the panel or can I take them together in a box and run one line to the box?

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[mike93lx]

Keep in mind that if you run a new feeder out there, you have to abandon or remove the old one. You can't have two feeds to a building

 

[pattenp]

The ground in the cable should be a number 10 which is good for up to 60 amps. You are confusing the equipment ground conductor from the house with the ground rods and electrode conductor which are for diverting lightning strikes and have nothing to do with clearing fault current.

 

[Mech55]

So thank you to all the help here. I changed out the panel to one with disconnect in the detached garage as well. Un bonded from the ground from the neutral and grounded it directly to the panel.

Remaining on my to do list is change out the new disconnect break to a 60amp ( panel came with 100amp) and grounding rods.



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[wyliesdiesels]

So thank you to all the help here. I changed out the panel to one with disconnect in the detached garage as well. Un bonded from the ground from the neutral and grounded it directly to the panel.

Remaining on my to do list is change out the new disconnect break to a 60amp ( panel came with 100amp) and grounding rods.

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The breaker in the subpanel doesnt need to be changed. It is only acting as a disconnect.

The feeding breaker in the main panel is for the overcurrent protection and should be 60a.