Can anybody tell me why...

[1cargarage]

Sorry if this has come up before, but it is a bit of a tricky topic to search for (I wasn't able to come up with effective keywords).

On double end box wrenches, specifically deep offset double box end wrenches,

Why do manufacturers configure the wrenches out of order? E.g. 11x13, 12x14, instead of the logical 11x12, 13x14?
This has never made sense to me. It's frustrating having to reach for a different wrench to move up or down 1 size. I have thought long and hard about it and couldn't come up with any logical reason why a tool company would do this.

Stahlwille has been the only company that I have found (maybe I'm not looking hard enough) that configures their double box end spanners 'in order'.

Craftsman, Snap On, and others configure theirs in the 'staggered' order. WHY!?!?

Logical: Stahlwille 12x13mm
vs.
Illogical: Craftsman 12x14mm



Someone on here must know! Thanks in advance.

 

[gagreen]

so when you lay them in your box numbers are in order

11 12
13 14

 

[cheechi]

Also in case you need a 10 & 12 on the opposite sides of the same fastener. This is carried over from older double box and double open wrenches.

Also don't double wrench. Or don't admit you do. But that's where it started, although gagren's point is also valid.

 

[1cargarage]

so when you lay them in your box numbers are in order

11 12
13 14

Maybe I'm failing to visualize this, but if the wrenches are laid in the box with the flat panels pointed to the front, the resulting order of sizes would be:

Craftsman / Snap On:
Back of box
17x19
18x16
13x15
14x12
9x11
10x8
Front of box

vs.

Stahlwille:
Back of box
18x19
16x17
14x15
12x13
10x11
8x9
Front of box​

I still don't see how the 'staggered' configuration makes anything easier or puts 'box numbers in order' .

 

[1cargarage]

Also don't double wrench.

I've NEVER double wrenched and I wouldn't even dream of it.

 

[1cargarage]

Also in case you need a 10 & 12 on the opposite sides of the same fastener. This is carried over from older double box and double open wrenches.

Well even in this case, if you needed "a 10 & 12 on the opposite sides of the same fastener" and the wrenches are configured 8x10 and 12x14 (see photo), you would still have to grab two separate wrenches.

 

[4x4gearhead]

I think it has almost nothing to do with how they look when put them in order in your toolbox and everything to do with being able to use one wrench set instead of two at a time when you need the two sizes on your one wrench...

 

[jakemac]

Also don't double wrench. Or don't admit you do.

I've NEVER double wrenched and I wouldn't even dream of it.

I experimented with double wrenching in College once. But those were crazy days and I was young and stupid back then. Besides, everyone was doing it. It was peer pressure. I didn't care for the experience, and haven't double wrenched since. But hey, to each their own. Society is changing, it's becoming more acceptable nowadays.

 

[1cargarage]

I think it has almost nothing to do with how they look when put them in order in your toolbox and everything to do with being able to use one wrench set instead of two at a time when you need the two sizes on your one wrench...

Again, I don't see how the staggered sizing configuration makes this more possible and the sequential sizing configuration impedes this.
When I have used these wrenches (they are a godsend in certain situations), if need be, I have used an additional wrench or socket on the other end of the fastener. E.g. removing a fan / fan clutch. 99% of the times I have reached for these, however, I have been removing or installing a fastener from or into something that does not require access to the other end. E.g. attaching / removing an exhaust manifold to a block.

Does anyone have any specific personal experience in which the staggered sizing configuration made possible a job with one wrench set that the sequential sizing configuration would have made impossible with one wrench set?

Thanks for the answers so far.

 

[1cargarage]

I experimented with double wrenching in College once. But those were crazy days and I was young and stupid back then. Besides, everyone was doing it. It was peer pressure. I didn't care for the experience, and haven't double wrenched since. But hey, to each their own. Society is changing, it's becoming more acceptable nowadays.

I hear you buddy. It's a brave new world out there...

 

[bobcatdan]

I think you have too much time on your hands.

 

[1cargarage]

I think you have too much time on your hands.

"Well that's just like... your opinion man." -The Dude-

 

[K13]

I tend to find, and it may just be a fluke that it has happened this way, that stuff I have worked on usually have the majority of the fasteners all either odd or even sized not a combination of both so having wenches configured the same way limits the number of tools I need to have on hand to complete a job.

 

[stratman977]

Most cars use a hand full of sizes which skip every other size.

For example on my subaru they use 8, 10, 12, 14, 17 exclusively. I get alot of use out of the 10x12 because most of the fasterners are 10mm and 12mm. One wrench to keep track of instead of two. I would be better off with 2 combo wrenches than a 12x13 or a 10x11 cause I would never use the 11 or 13.

I have never worked on a car that commonly used both 12mm and 13mm, etc. I think this is probably the case for most cars these days but I could be wrong.

 

[ears]

One benefit is being able to tell quickly which end is which. When you're jammed in somewhere the big end is more obvious when a size is skipped.

 

[smiffy]

can someone please explain what you mean by double wrenching i always presumed this was using the ring of one spanner on the crows foot of another to give better levarage but it appears to be somethings else
also here we have a company selling combonation spanners that have different sizes on each end specifically to save space in toolboxes by not carrying duplicates mainly desighned for tractors and the like where they are there in case of emergeny and there little room

 

[1cargarage]

can someone please explain what you mean by double wrenching i always presumed this was using the ring of one spanner on the crows foot of another to give better levarage but it appears to be somethings else

Double Wrenching: Verb / transitive / intransitive / Origin: self-proclaimed master mechanics/

1: To achieve proper size correspondence between a wrench and fastener by way of trial-and-error fitting of multiple wrenches to the fastener in question.

2: Following initial inspection, the bringing of more tools than necessary, typically of varying size, to a site where a repair is to be performed. Usually accompanied by an alibi that falsely justifies the inclusion of the unnecessary tools.

Parties most commonly guilty of double wrenching include, but are not limited to: shade tree mechanics, rookies/amateurs/novice technicians, young whipper snappers, neighbors, incompetent mechanics, any male whose manhood is being questioned, individuals whose optical metric or imperial calibration has not been routinely performed and certified.

 

[Jason280]

I don't mind the odd pattern, as long as you get the sizes you need. I recently picked up a set of Toptul XL 0* box end wrenches, and they have the most absurd sizing I've seen. The roll pack came with the following: 8x10, 10x12, 12x14, 14x17, 17x19, & 22x24. Notice what's missing? 13x15mm (Toptul doesn't offer one, at least that I can find). So, in all of their wisdom, they give you two wrenches with 12mm on an end, two more with 10mm, and two with 14mm on an end, yet not a single 13 or 15mm. Explain that one!!

 

[1cargarage]

I don't mind the odd pattern, as long as you get the sizes you need. I recently picked up a set of Toptul XL 0* box end wrenches, and they have the most absurd sizing I've seen. The roll pack came with the following: 8x10, 10x12, 12x14, 14x17, 17x19, & 22x24. Notice what's missing? 13x15mm (Toptul doesn't offer one, at least that I can find). So, in all of their wisdom, they give you two wrenches with 12mm on an end, two more with 10mm, and two with 14mm on an end, yet not a single 13 or 15mm. Explain that one!!

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. I would like to hear the manufacturer's explanation of that one.

 

[Jason280]

Crazy thing is, they're great wrenches. Fit and finish are perfect, just the sizing is beyond strange.

 

[Fcvapor05]

I've worked on some stuff where a bolt had a 10mm head but the nut is 9mm- meaning I'd need two sets of wrenches to take that fastener apart. M10 fasteners especially- its' very common to need a 16 on one end and a 17 on the to disassemble an M10 bolt. Most fasteners use the same size nut and bolt head, but there are some that have a 1mm spread. They never, that I've seen, have a 2mm spread.

 

[Gmonkee]

Toptul is an Asain company filling the needs of owners of Asain cars. Its the Germans that put the 13 and 15 mm into heavy use but not the 12 or 14 mm.

I bought German market wrenches and had to buy fillers in some of them for the 12 and 14 mm sizes.
The quad ratcheting wrenches Wurth sold me were made in Japan to German size specs, probably left a few guys there scratching their heads and wondering. I do find them of limited usefulness for the common jobs.

DBE and DOE wrenches were originally thought to be a team effort decades back. A pro mechanic had both and really there was nothing he could not do. Combo wrenches came into popularity in the 1950's and slowly displaced the DBE/DOE kit. I recently went back to the older idea and found that it is more flexible in manners of attack and gives a little more length options without having to carry that much more weight.

Keep in mind a mechanic in 1947 only had SAE tools and most all he had fit in a medium handbox. The showoffs of the day also had those newfangled socket wrenches and the real showboaters had the deluxe sets with ratchets. That was costly stuff back then.

 

[Dave455]

Totally agree with the OP on this!

For what it's worth, traditional British practice was to supply wrenches in a 'half set' or 'full set' with the sizes in sequence!

A 'half set' would include say a 7/16 x 1/2 wrench, then a 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving one of each size in sequence. A 'full set' would include a 7/16 x 1/2, then 1/2 x 9/16, then 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving two wrenches in each size, one for the bolt and one for the nut, but again, all in sequence!

While I love U.S. tools, I could never understand why the makers don't do this, and nobody has ever been able to explain why!

Of course the problem is worse with metric where not every size is used, but made worse still by the manufacturers who seem to have no idea which sizes are common! My Snap On Short ring wrenches, for example, include only one 8mm end (a very common size) but two 9mm's, which I don't think I've ever used!

Think this is one reason why a lot of combination wrenches are sold, but you can end up with a lot of wrenches this way!

Gmonkee is quite correct though, for years my Grandfather used to deal with about 70% of jobs with about 5 ring wrenches. They were always in his car, or even his travelling bag if he was away from home! Most of the fastenings on any vehicle could be reached with these tools, and stuff like Torx, or even metric, was unheard of!

 

[4x4gearhead]

Again, I don't see how the staggered sizing configuration makes this more possible and the sequential sizing configuration impedes this.
When I have used these wrenches (they are a godsend in certain situations), if need be, I have used an additional wrench or socket on the other end of the fastener. E.g. removing a fan / fan clutch. 99% of the times I have reached for these, however, I have been removing or installing a fastener from or into something that does not require access to the other end. E.g. attaching / removing an exhaust manifold to a block.

Does anyone have any specific personal experience in which the staggered sizing configuration made possible a job with one wrench set that the sequential sizing configuration would have made impossible with one wrench set?

Thanks for the answers so far.

An example for me is this. Our M10 bolt selection uses 16mm hex's. The nuts have 17mm, if you had 16 and 17 on the same wrench, youd be running for another wrench to hold the nut. Do you see what I mean now?

 

[1cargarage]

Totally agree with the OP on this!

For what it's worth, traditional British practice was to supply wrenches in a 'half set' or 'full set' with the sizes in sequence!

A 'half set' would include say a 7/16 x 1/2 wrench, then a 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving one of each size in sequence. A 'full set' would include a 7/16 x 1/2, then 1/2 x 9/16, then 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving two wrenches in each size, one for the bolt and one for the nut, but again, all in sequence!

While I love U.S. tools, I could never understand why the makers don't do this, and nobody has ever been able to explain why!

Of course the problem is worse with metric where not every size is used, but made worse still by the manufacturers who seem to have no idea which sizes are common! My Snap On Short ring wrenches, for example, include only one 8mm end (a very common size) but two 9mm's, which I don't think I've ever used!

Think this is one reason why a lot of combination wrenches are sold, but you can end up with a lot of wrenches this way!

Gmonkee is quite correct though, for years my Grandfather used to deal with about 70% of jobs with about 5 ring wrenches. They were always in his car, or even his travelling bag if he was away from home! Most of the fastenings on any vehicle could be reached with these tools, and stuff like Torx, or even metric, was unheard of!

At least I'm not alone on this one.

An example for me is this. Our M10 bolt selection uses 16mm hex's. The nuts have 17mm, if you had 16 and 17 on the same wrench, youd be running for another wrench to hold the nut. Do you see what I mean now?

That does make sense. Thank you very much.

 

[Gmonkee]

1car, as a user of DOE and DBE wrenches more than combo wrenches the last two years I find your issue kind of silly somehow. I have lots of loose older DOE and have pieced together a few sets from odds and ends SAE and metrics, half and full sets.

Any set seems to be an ok user really. Be they sequencial or not. The Wurth metrics DOE are as you like, the PowerBuilt DBE not, they have no skips in either set. I was never left unable to complete a task.
For what it is worth in my experiences the short set is just fine for auto and heavy equiptment use. I carried a full set and found it was more weight for no added benefit 98% of the jobs I did. Modern late model car to a late 60's Cat grader.

Dave455; just for information the current Urrea catalog in Mexico still lists full and half and sets of different extremes of range in the common wrench types. So it is not dead but more being replaced by the combo wrench in most brands already.
The trend seems to be that every tech in the states has a box 2 meters long with 4,000 sockets, 12 wrench sets in every known style and standard.
For the European mind this may be odd as most there seem to live out of a medium to large handbox or a Hazet cart. Using metrics as the most common standard helps in reducing the bulk in half just with that. Maybe a handfull of Whitworth but no great need to carry SAE really outside of aircraft work.

 

[dlcwent]

Crazy thing is, they're great wrenches. Fit and finish are perfect, just the sizing is beyond strange.

You must be talking about your avatar

 

[texasfiremedic]

Crazy thing is, they're great wrenches. Fit and finish are perfect, just the sizing is beyond strange.

Are we still talking about wrenches?

 

[1cargarage]

You must be talking about your avatar

The fit, finish, and sizing all look good to me. I'll take two

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

You want them in order, check out these
http://carbonlitetools.com/

 

[joel63]

Totally agree with the OP on this!

For what it's worth, traditional British practice was to supply wrenches in a 'half set' or 'full set' with the sizes in sequence!

A 'half set' would include say a 7/16 x 1/2 wrench, then a 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving one of each size in sequence. A 'full set' would include a 7/16 x 1/2, then 1/2 x 9/16, then 9/16 x 5/8 and so on, giving two wrenches in each size, one for the bolt and one for the nut, but again, all in sequence!

While I love U.S. tools, I could never understand why the makers don't do this, and nobody has ever been able to explain why!

Of course the problem is worse with metric where not every size is used, but made worse still by the manufacturers who seem to have no idea which sizes are common! My Snap On Short ring wrenches, for example, include only one 8mm end (a very common size) but two 9mm's, which I don't think I've ever used!

Think this is one reason why a lot of combination wrenches are sold, but you can end up with a lot of wrenches this way!

Gmonkee is quite correct though, for years my Grandfather used to deal with about 70% of jobs with about 5 ring wrenches. They were always in his car, or even his travelling bag if he was away from home! Most of the fastenings on any vehicle could be reached with these tools, and stuff like Torx, or even metric, was unheard of!

Thanks Dave455

I always wondered about how wrench sets (DOE and DBE) were made up and why they are sold as they are.
Half sets, full sets, in sequence–now I know a lot more than before.

Gotta have with this one.

 

[Lotek]

Tool polisher's problem...


(A subset of white people problems)

 

[1cargarage]

Tool polisher's problem...


(A subset of white people problems)

Call it whatever you want (not sure where the 'white people' part came into the picture though). I appreciate, and I don't think I'm alone on this one, high-quality, well-designed tools because they are, for the most part, 100% purpose-built objects whose form is trumped by function. They each have a specific proper application and their jobs are discrete.

Q: What is a wrench if it doesn't tighten or loosen a fastener?
A: Essentially worthless- a crude and ineffective hammer or prybar at best

Every feature of a well-designed tool is thought out. "Everything the job requires, nothing it doesn't" is the common theme of high-quality tool design (hopefully).

My initial inquiry regarding the sizing configuration of the DBE wrenches that I have used came to fruition after I could not deduce the purpose behind the design characteristic. It did not stem from a disdain of their non-sequential sizing and the consequential appearance of the polished wrenches sitting in my toolbox. Damn straight I keep my tools clean .

1car, as a user of DOE and DBE wrenches more than combo wrenches the last two years I find your issue kind of silly somehow. I have lots of loose older DOE and have pieced together a few sets from odds and ends SAE and metrics, half and full sets.

The issue is indeed a silly one. I posted it here at GJ because, from what I can interpret, this is the place where such a pedantic inquiry that questions the minutiae of tool design is welcomed and perhaps shared by community members.

Thank you for your responses and sharing your personal experiences with DOE and DBE wrenches. They did not go unappreciated .

 

[cheechi]

Tool polisher's problem...


(A subset of white people problems)

Call it whatever you want (not sure where the 'white people' part came into the picture though).

White people problems (or more politically correct First World problems, though still somewhat 'appears racist' non racism) are problems that people with too much free time or too little real problems have. For example, how many people worldwide have no clean water? How many Americans prefer Deer Park over store brand bottles? That's a first world problem.

Lotek is suggesting the following;

Tool user finds the right wrench from the drawer and works with the fastener. May or may not care if there's a better way.

Tool designer finds inefficient design and works on improving the design with a variety of criteria and constraints to evaluate in defining that improved design. May or may not result in actually better design.

Tool polisher wonders why and makes forum post about it.

 

[ttpete]

In regard to metric wrenches, there are two main systems, and hex sizes in relation to a given bolt size differ. For instance, an M8 fastener will have a 13 mm hex in the DIN (euro) system and a 12 mm hex in the JIS (asian) system.

We had something similar in the old USS-SAE system. Coarse thread fasteners used a bigger hex than an equivalent fine thread fastener.

 

[Steroblan]

Many industrial fasteners had nut and bolt sizes that skipped one size on each fastener so you wouldn't have to use two sets of wrenches to hold the bolt and turn the nut. One set of wrenches would do it.