To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Can anyone explain testing motor windings?

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
As to my general background I was highly schooled in electronics. repaired TV's, radios. many items from tube to transistor. Repair computers software and hardware for a living in an Enterprise. I no longer have test equipment beyond good VOM's at my house - but used to use many high end products scopes, wave form and RF generators etc. Only have several good high end VOM's left and maybe a DC power supply, and know how to use them. Am 61. When In highschool I built and placed well on a GE motor contest where I built a fully functional 2hp GE motor from making the windings to fully assembling it. It ran well. This motor I am working on is somewhat similar in construction having a starter switch and no brushes.

This compressor motor I am working on just sounds like it starts hard every few 1 out of 5 tries. It is not the unloader etc on the compressor. It is supposed to pull 15 amps and even on a 20 amp circuit one can tell it has a slight lag to the start and the switch sounds louder sometimes when it has that bad start. The starting cap has been replaced which helped it to start a little smoother. Motor is about 5 years old.

I took it to a local 60 year in business electric motor shop and got it back yesterday after a week. They were supposed to clean it up and then test it as it came from a cabinet shop and had sawdust in it. Cost $65 to have them check it. When I went in it had a note on it "shorted winding." I accept that might be true. I tried to ask the GM how they determined that but he was annoyed because he had been fighting with his wife on the phone before and after I dropped in to pick it up. The office staff was helpful but the arguing with his wife, probably common, had them all uncomfortable. His answer to me was very short and quite frankly poor customer service. "The oscilloscope shows it was bad." I asked how the wave form was different and all he said was "the waves are supposed to cancel out and yours didn't."

When I got home with it I pulled it apart figuring well lets see if we can see any discolored or damaged windings I have nothing to loose now. It will cost $300 - $450 to replace as it has a special base welded on it that no one but the compressor manufacture makes. The inside still was packed with some shavings, it is filthy, and the switch has some debris around it so the motor was never opened and the spade lugs are all oxidized but the motor windings all look the same clean copper varnish color with no discoloration or swelling. I know what overheated wire looks like. There also appears to be a spot where one spade lug rubbed on another insulated wire and it has left a mark so it may be arcing through the vinyl insulation there - I haven't cleaned that area yet. The armature is a laminated steel armature and there are a couple spots where the coating is bad, no rust - and one spot at the end where I can see the armature may have rubbed on the end plate or something occasionally and just lightly. Today I thought I would clean it with electronic motor cleaner, polish the switch points and regrease the bearings plus make sure nothing is rubbing. I have the special red varnish to paint any spots in the windings or armature where the varnish is bad.

The problem is that after 3 hours of reading I cannot find a reasonable article on how to test the windings with a VOM to see if there is a short to ground or between windings - and after 43 years since I built a motor I can't remember how we tested the windings back in those days. I think I can figure out a test(s) that will work but someone here must know of a really standard way to test with a VOM. I do not have a 500 - 1000 volt source to test the insulation and I am not going back to that shop to listen to him argue with his wife instead of work with a customer. For all I know I may find a staple or something - charcoalized sawdust that is someplace it should not be. They were supposed to clean it for the $65 then test but frankly I am really not even sure they wasted more than 1 minute on it to see what might be wrong. The guy's attention is not on a one time customer. Can anyone make some suggestions here to test the motor windings? It is a 120/240 motor with a running and start cap, about 15 amps. Shows up as a 1.9 and 3 hp motor in different specs. Part is Z-D20620 Marathon motor.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

w1im

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
169
Location
Western MA
Initial test with an ohmmeter will reveal continuity in the individual windings. A megger is really needed to test winding to winding and winding to ground.
Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LDHPAO/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Is your link supposed to refer to a megger? I remember meggers as high voltage generators, powered by a hand crank. They were used for insulation testing (HiPot).

Maybe this is a case of old/new terminology.
 

w1im

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
169
Location
Western MA
They probably spun the motor and measured the voltage developed on the different windings. For a given shaft speed, they should be the same amplitude (opposite polarity) and if added they would cancel out. The winding with the lower voltage would be the one that is shorted.

If you can measure the resistance with a high accuracy low resistance meter you should be able to see that one is lower than the other. It may not be by much though.
 

PRH44

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
563
Location
Indiana
This is a schematic of a 1.5 HP Cap run Cap start. A DVM may or may not pick up on a fault to ground on one of the windings.This should be done with a 500 volt megger. But you can still check and see if it will pick something up. The readings below would be different with a 500 volt megger.
The DVM you are using should be capable of reading Mega scale down to at least 1 ohm
You must isolate all windings both ends from each other and the capacitors. Check each winding to ground to see if they are shorted to the case. For example in main-1 check the blue or white to the chassis, do the same for all windings. If you get infinity on all windings this is a good sign. Again there could still be a fault the small voltage of the DVM can not pick up. If you get an OHM reading in the low mega ohm scale with a DVM you more than likely have a fault. Anything in the K range for sure.

You will next check the two main windings to get an OHM reading. they both should be close to the same value.
Test between the blue and white and then yellow and orange. With out a spec sheet I can not give you the exact OHM value this should be, Could be as low as a few ohms this is OK. Mega or K scale readings will indicate an open or weak winding. You are looking for consistency between the two. The start winding will more than likely be different thats OK.

motor.jpg
[/IMG].
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
the start cap is new.

When it starts hard it will pull enough to just pop the 15 amp breaker but not enough to pop the 20 amp so my best guess is just about 16. The motor is supposed to pull just at 15 amps when in 120V mode.

I tried to get the guy to talk with me for more than 15 seconds so I could have an idea if it was a winding shorted to ground or a shorted turn etc but he wanted to argue with his wife. He just said they put it on an oscilloscope and the wave form was wrong but he didn't explain what about the wave form was wrong except they didn't "cancel out." Seeing no parts were removed the only way they could have tested it was to hook up to the spot the 120 goes. I wrote on it that it was configured in 120V mode but with all the wood dust you still couldn't read the letters by each spade lug so they must have just hooked leads up to it, applied voltage and watched the wave form. Anyone every see a singe phase motor tested this way?
 

reeltoreelguy

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Maryland
I would go with cleaning the motor up and fixing any points where you think winding or connection insulation rubbed through. Those issues you covered are what cause many intermittant motor problems. Things have to be in certain positions to cause the short, or arc.. As you know, a motor that cannot breathe will certainly overheat and die. I don't need to tell you to finish cleaning it out.

I would suggest also you report that shop GM to the BBB as that person had nothing better to do than to argue with his wife, and charged you for work that was never done. Take care, RtoRguy
 

MBfreak

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
2,301
Location
Linkoping , Sweden
Hi.
Meggering the windings is a DC insulation standard test.A 220 V AC motor is usually meggered with 500 VDC. The test voltage is applied between each individual wiring and ground. Expect readings above 10 MegOhms for a good motor. 1 MegOhm is borderline. DC test voltage is used in order to not read the capacitive leak current that you get when testing with AC.

Ohming the windinga is useful for continuity. You really need a mOhm meter. It gives an indication of larger winding shorts. Kind of , at least. And be careful when mOhming. Copper wire changes resistance about 20 % for a 50 C change in temperature. O milliohm reding /spec without having the tempeature specified is less than useful. mOhming is not very likely to find one or a few turn short circuits.

And even just one turn short circuit reduces the performace a lot and increases the magnetic loss quite a lot.

To test out a single turn wire short you can do different tests.
-The balancing out is useful. Pretty accurate IF the motor is well manufactured to start with. Many are not.
-Measuring the Q value is better ( instrument hard to find )
-Many winding shops will use a growler. Growlers are simple and reliable.
A growler sets up a 60 Hz flux in the stator core thru magnetic coupling. If a turn is short circuited there will be a local magnetic field whích sets of oscillations in a reed of magnetic material that is traversed across the stator surface parallell to the winding slots. This sounds lika a growl , hence the name. You will also pinpoint the short location. With luck it can be repaired by a skilled rewinder.
Growlers are the most efficient way to use at home and a growler can easily be made from some transformer lamination , a simple coil fed by a VARIAC and a hacksaw blade.
Or simply find a rewinding shop where the owner actually works, has no fancy, closed off, utterly useless "Customer Reception Area " ( aka money pit) and ask him to growl your stator. If it growls , he will fix it for you too!
Rewinding an electric motor is a very skilled trade, takes a while to be good at. But, if you have time on your hands , go for it.

Best of luck.

Ola
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
PRH44 - Thank You. What you are telling me I think is that neither main winding M1 nor M2 should show a fault to ground and that the resistances on M1 and M2 should be identical or it indicates a different number of turns are involved likely due to a shorted turn(s). The starting winding should not fault to ground either. Did I understand this correctly? I did see where that one vinyl wire with a spade going to one of the main windings has discoloration ( a small dark line like a carbon track) on it where the other spade was touching it. I have not inspected it yet to see if that is surface only or if some current was punching though that spot or tracking to it. Thank you for the help.


Clark Nicholas - if is a 400 MFD 165V which is the same as the one I took out.

w1im - yes, it occured to me that might have been what they were measuring but I don't know if they simply mounted it on a vice and spun it with a belt or if they measured it under power. The key is out of it so a belt spinning it would see a slightly different speed each time it passed the key way so if that is how they did it there would be a slight variation in the same spot unless they mounted a pulley on it. Maybe I will call them Tuesdat and see if I can catch the owner in a better frame of mind. Thank God my other half and I don't argue like they were.

MBfreak - thank you

All others thank you too. Please forgive me if I didn't mention all. - steve
 
Last edited:

rockwithjason

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Las Vegas
more than likely they used a surge tester on the motor. it injects a voltage and graphs a line on a display to show the relations of voltage and current in the windings. this will pick up things like shorted turns and such.
 

Alchymist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
4,423
Location
Central PA
Is your link supposed to refer to a megger? I remember meggers as high voltage generators, powered by a hand crank. They were used for insulation testing (HiPot).

Maybe this is a case of old/new terminology.

From the description:
Product Description
Measures insulation values up to 1,000 megohms at 500V and indicates the condition of insulation on the zone scale # 20 to 1000 megohms indicator range # Uses two C batteries (not included).

I have a small one similar to this that I find very handy to check insulation values on all kinds of stuff, not just motors. Some meggers for hv insulation testing can test at 1000 volts or higher. Also termed "high voltage withstand".
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

PRH44

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
563
Location
Indiana
Is your link supposed to refer to a megger? I remember meggers as high voltage generators, powered by a hand crank. They were used for insulation testing (HiPot).

Maybe this is a case of old/new terminology.


I have used the hand crank style, I guess that make me old? :shocking:
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
more than likely they used a surge tester on the motor. it injects a voltage and graphs a line on a display to show the relations of voltage and current in the windings. this will pick up things like shorted turns and such.

are there other things in the motor that could mimic the fault such as poor craftsman ship when made or sticky switch etc? The motor was not dissasembled so whatever they saw had to be with it fully assembled,
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
sealed although there was a little grease packed inside one end plate. They have steel seals on them rather than rubber like they used to years ago. Sort of like an alternator bearing maybe 1"+ , It spun by hand smooth with the belt off and the compressor flywheel spun freely by hand as well.
 

rockwithjason

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Las Vegas
are there other things in the motor that could mimic the fault such as poor craftsman ship when made or sticky switch etc? The motor was not dissasembled so whatever they saw had to be with it fully assembled,

dissassembly is not required to use a surge tester. you connect it to the t leads at the motor connection box. poor craftsmanship is a perpetual problem in this day and age but i can't honestly answer this question with authority. i suggest that you find another motor shop to take a peek at it.
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
I just cleaned the windings with a proper electic wash and used lots of compressed air. Everything was full of a fine sawdust dust like chalk dust. Used silicone spray on the centrifigual switch after cleaning it and it is very smooth now too. It worked before but slightly rough although I doubt that is it. I see one shiny spot on a main winding but it is not near rubbing another winding and has no looks of arcing. The main windings are slightly darker in color than the starter windings. I'll go out with a magnifying glass later to look over everything to see if there is any evidence of rubbing of loose windings but all the bindings look tight. Can'f figure yet what rubbed on the end of the armature to put that shiny spot in it unless they were holding it with a screw driver or something through the end plate to hold it when they applied a load. Thanks to everyone. Once I measure the resistances if noting jumps out at me I think we'll try to find another shop who can take a look at just the stator and growl and meg it as suggested.
 

Greatbear

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,702
Location
Columbia/Fulton, MD
One thing to check is the integrity of all the various splices and such inside the motor. A common problem with dual voltage (120/240) motors is failure of one run winding. When wired for 120V, the two windings are in parallel. If one of the windings opens up, the motor will have only half of the available magnetic energy to start and run with, this can cause stalling and overloaded circuits. When wired for 240V, the windings are in series, if one opens, the motor will not start, will stop/stall, or try and run intermittently if a connection internally is failing. without seeing how your motor is set up for changing the running voltage, I can't give specific advise. If the motor uses spade lugs and terminals to configure the motor, check all the lugs and terminals, as well as the condition of all the wiring inside. Motors with a conduit box on the side which have a batch of labeled wires and wire nuts can have the same problem with intermittent/poor connections. Make sure no internal wires have been rubbed by internal moving parts. Separate the individual windings (each run winding, and the start winding). Measure continuity with the lowest scale on your DMM while squeezing and flexing the windings, splices and terminals. Do this for each winding separately.

If you have 240 available, temporarily rewire the motor for 240 and test it under running conditions. The problem can become more pronounced this way. Look for arcing other than at the start switch.
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
On the 20 meg scale I get infinity from the stator core and case to all three windings.

The mains with the meter on its lowest setting read 1.1 ohms on each
On the Start winding it is 1.5 ohms.
Both caps were still charging with resistance increasing in the 20 meg scale so neither is open or shorted.

pushing and probing around with the finger does not change the resistance.

I have gone as far as I can without better equipment. I can put it back together and see if it runs smoother or try to find someone locally with a growler.

Steve
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
update: put it back together carefully, polished the starter points etc, put electrical varnish anywhere it looked like more was better. About 15 starts normal and on the 16th or so it blew the breaker; other items were on the 15 amp breaker so that may not be all that bad. Will look at it later this week.
 

clark_nicholas

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
107
Location
BFE Michigan
clark_nicholas;2112294 It should pull 125%of the running amps at start so like 18 amps or so[/QUOTE said:
This motor should be on a 20 amp breaker anyway. I guessing that when it was new it only drew full load amps for a sec. and now its getting older its drawing starting amps longer and passing the time delay on the breaker.
 
OP
S

SGKent

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,959
Location
Citrus Heights CA
This motor should be on a 20 amp breaker anyway. I guessing that when it was new it only drew full load amps for a sec. and now its getting older its drawing starting amps longer and passing the time delay on the breaker.

good guess.

update Mpnday 5:30 pm. The new bearings are in. The rubbing noise is gone and the armature is quiet. Just enough play in the old bearings I guess to let it rub. Still occasionally pops a 15 amp breaker but not a 20 amp so we will convert it to 240V and see what happens as that was our intent. The motor sounds smooth and normal otherwise with a tiny lag sometimes but mush smoother and quieter. So my conclusions are that the white wire was arcing thru to the blue spade lug and that was probably the shorted winding unless the insulation is breaking down too. The bearings and start cap were worn. Hopefully we will get many more miles out of this motor and in the meantime keep our eyes open for a good quality one or even a dead one we can cut the pivot bracket off and convert it so a standard base motor can be bolted on. Thank you all for your help



update Monday Noon. I pulled the armature to see if it had been rubbing and reinspect the bearings. It has been lightly rubbing in one spot. The bearings seem solid but am going to replace them and see if that stops it. If not then will have to find a shop that can turn the armature a couple thousands. I can see where if the armature stops right where it is barely touching that might cause extra current in the fields and pop the breaker.

Prior Update Monday morning:
Cleaning the switch and centrifigual mechanism made the mechanism smoother and quieter, plus the points were polished. I suspect that dark wiggly line about 1/16" long on the white wire where it was rubbing on the blue spade is indeed a carbon track when I looked at it closely last night. It will not clean off. I painted it with electrical varnish and electricians tape then made sure that didn't cross over. Blue to white arcing over would have shown as some kind of failure on main winding 1 based on the schematic one of the posts shared for a Marathon motor. The circuit it popped last night had 6 X (2ea) 4' fluorscents and a computer backup battery on it. I'll check it today on a 20 amp dedicated circuit and if it works reconfigure it and change the cord then move it to a dedicated 240V circuit.

Thanks everyone for the help. The suggestions and that Marathon motor schematic really helped me on this one. I feel lucky too - I got word today that a new motor is backordered if I had needed one. You guys and this forum are super. - Steve
 
Last edited:

DougMcCrary

New member
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Messages
1
SGKent:
Sorry to revive this, but I wonder if you may recall or be able to check what the caps are for this motor. I saw the 400 for start, can you tell the run cap?
Have one, but the caps are missing....

Thanks for any help.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom