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Can anyone help with understanding a vehicle oscilloscope waveform?

jeffberk

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I'm using a vintage oscilloscope (Snap on MT3000A) on a vintage car (Datsun 260z) to analyze the ignition. The ignition was changed to a Mallory Unilite breakerless distributor with a Mallory coil. The secondary wave plots from the 6 cylinders look different from the oscilloscope manual in that the period that the coil and condenser energy has dissipated (#9 on the diagram) is absent.

I've attached a photo showing each of the secondary waveforms and the example out of the manual.

Does this mean anything?
Thanks in advance.
Jeff
 

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Handyfarmer

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I has been many years since I have used an oscilloscope, but a breakerless set up will show different than a points set up, as the electronics are different,

as far as is there a problem, or if the waveform is off, I do not know, I see some differences from cylinder to cylinder, how are the spark plugs? new clean oily?
 

2ndGearRubber

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Neat tool. Anyways; the spike at the end of all cylinders but #1, is the lean spike/taper. Frankly #1 looks quite off, I think the sample the scope picked up is no good. Looks a bit like a shorted plug, hard to say; I think it's a bad capture.


Lean mixtures result in higher pressures in the cylinder, and higher kV required to jump the gap on the plug. The taper or spike at the end of the ignition event occurs when all available fuel has been consumed, and cylinder ends combustion. Combustion conducts much better than oxygen or raw air, so when combustion is complete, the kV required to jump the gap increases. This is the mixture burning out, so to speak. The bouncing at the end is related to the loss of induction in the circuit. More or less ignore that. It just means the circuit is returning to baseline.

Secondary stuff can be easy to get bogged down in. At a quick glance, 2 and 6 have a bit more hash than I'd be thrilled with, might just be the scope setting. Try widening the timebase to see if you can elongate the firing line. One could argue 2/6 have irregular fuel dispersion, leading to lean pockets and an irregular burn. Kinda doubt it. I would reason that the coil on your car, is more powerful than the one used for the manual. Some old stuff had such mediocre spark output, there would be no lean spike, as the coil couldn't output enough energy to create one after the initial ignition and burn process. As a result, they just drop off and die, into the oscillation.



As I said - On a good running car, don't go crazy pulling your hair out over scope traces. Some off the wall stuff can occur, and they run fine. Big picture is what you're really looking for. Peak kV, can the coil build it, can the mixture/plug hold it? Is there a burn line, or does it just die?
 
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engineer2

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Here's a couple of examples from training material.
 

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stioc

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Looks fine to me, just the 1 to 2 drop is not as exact/clear as shown in the diagram.
 

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Fcvapor05

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They look about right. They're never going to look EXACTLY like the manual.
 
OP
J

jeffberk

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Thanks everyone, esp 2ndGearRubber. It is a fun tool to use. If I'm understanding it correctly, the coil is dissipating its energy and goes into the next phase where the points close at the start of the dwell with a short period of rest (#9 on the diagram).
I'll try and elongate the fire line if I can figure out the settings on this old beast.
Thanks all!
 

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Milton Shaw

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Go to parade mode and see all the cylinders and then compare them. You should have equal height initial voltage lines and similar plug burn times. You need to go to stacked mode to see if the dwell lines line up as a bent or worn shaft can cause them to show a bow instead of equal degree times. If the dwell lines are off the distributor is worn and needs to be rebuilt. There is a lot of information in a good scope pattern set, you just have to know what they mean. Some scopes trigger on the first cylinder and then display from the second in the firing order, others with better electronics show the first cylinder spike and fire then the rest in firing order. Pull one wire to make make sure what cylinder in the firing order you are looking at.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Is the Unilte supposed to be a restrike system ? The all seem to be restriking (the second peak after the first high one) except for#1.
 

anndel

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Cylinder one looks off but the rest are good. The 2ndary spike at #7 is the residual field so is normal for cyls 2-6.
 

mbshop

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This. Cyl will never be the same. But a noticeable differance needs to be checked. No 1 cyl needs to be checked. Sp plug and condition. Even compression.

Go to parade mode and see all the cylinders and then compare them. You should have equal height initial voltage lines and similar plug burn times. You need to go to stacked mode to see if the dwell lines line up as a bent or worn shaft can cause them to show a bow instead of equal degree times. If the dwell lines are off the distributor is worn and needs to be rebuilt. There is a lot of information in a good scope pattern set, you just have to know what they mean. Some scopes trigger on the first cylinder and then display from the second in the firing order, others with better electronics show the first cylinder spike and fire then the rest in firing order. Pull one wire to make make sure what cylinder in the firing order you are looking at.
 

mfewtrail

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The picture for number one just looks like you didn't capture the entire waveform to me. Look closely and it appears the start of the waveform is actually the tail end of the spark line. Large upward humps at the end of the spark line and high kv indicate a lean mixture btw.
 
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