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can I cheat on ground?

terabyte

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Southwest Ranches, Florida
I know about the legality, I'm more concerned with safety as this is what was already here.

220v breaker was run from main panel that is already in the garage. the circuits alternate so there are 2 -20amp 120v circuits (outlet) off each leg. but I see the neutral also goes to the ground of the outlet.

is this safe? I have heard its pretty common and heard it called a jewish neutral.
 
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gdf_77

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farmersburg, iowa
Yes the neutral and the hot do go back to the same place. But the ground is there for fault protection. Don't mean to sound petty Ford12508.

The main reason for the ground is for safety. Either from shorts between the current carrying conductors (neutral & hot) but also from lightning strikes. The ground gives the lightning a path to earth. This path should not be a parallel path. Meaning 2 seperate paths/wires to ground(earth). If there is than you have a huge surge through your neutral line at all of devices. In the main panel the neutral is bonded to the ground(earth) for fault protection, but that is the only place that it should be, not at the device.
 

mrb

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the safety issue is that if neutral and ground are tied together anywhere but at the main bonding jumper, you will have current traveling on the ground conductor (and on anything else that is grounded)
 

Ford12508

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Yes the neutral and the hot do go back to the same place. But the ground is there for fault protection. Don't mean to sound petty Ford12508.

The main reason for the ground is for safety. Either from shorts between the current carrying conductors (neutral & hot) but also from lightning strikes. The ground gives the lightning a path to earth. This path should not be a parallel path. Meaning 2 seperate paths/wires to ground(earth). If there is than you have a huge surge through your neutral line at all of devices. In the main panel the neutral is bonded to the ground(earth) for fault protection, but that is the only place that it should be, not at the device.

Not petty at all, I was tired when I wrote that, and I should have put protection! I am not really sure why I put prevention...it doesn't prevent anything besides shocks.
 
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MrMark

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The real problem with this "method" of grounding is the open neutral scenario. If the neutral opens somewhere downstream of your jewish neutrals (that's a good one) everything metal in your wiring system will be unexpectedly energized upstream of the open neutral creating a horrible situation. That's why the ONLY place the ground and neutral are bonded is the service entrance, the very last place (or first depending on how you look at it) in the system. Open neutral on the pole will create total havoc here. But that is the rare situation.

Bottom line, don't do it! Just forget the ground if you don't have the ground wire, it's safer that way.

Current doesn't flow to ground BTW. It flows in a loop to the negative terminal of the battery in DC systems or the center tap of the transformer in three wire AC. The system ground is to provide a stable reference (around O V.) for the neutral and for lightning protection. (I have never been able to find a straight answer on where lightning goes - where is its source? And, if it's the sky how does it return to its source like all electricity must?). The device grounds provide LOCALIZED fault clearing at the devices whereas the ground rod is solely for lightning, and stabilization. There will not be enough current flowing down through your ground rod through the massive resistance of the earth's surface back to the ground rod by the pole and up to the transformer center tap to trip a breaker so you can clear a fault.

You don't need a ground for the system to work. There are many floating systems.
 
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VDubJoe

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New Port Richey , Fl
{Open neutral on the pole will create total havoc here. But that is the rare situation}

Open nuet are very comon. I probably go on an average of 2 to 3 calls a day. Im a troubleman for the electric co. Ive seen a lot of burnt up stuff because of them.
Mostly ug but also caused by a lot of tree's
If you start seeing a lot of bright and dimming going on id do a load test asap.

Joe
 

MrMark

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Thanks for the info there, Vdubjoe. Which are more trouble prone: the underground systems or the above ground pole distribution systems?

What is the state of these open neutrals that you are seeing? Are they just poor connections, or are they total opens? Because if totally open, there should be some people getting some pretty bad shocks in the house.
 
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egdede

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A squirrel chewed the shield/neutral on my drop. When they would run on the line, the lights would flicker. With no neutral you end up w/the potential for a 230 volt circuit.
 

robertlynk

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California
Had neutral break at the mast head was in the shower and touch the drain and shower head and got tapped I was very lucky DON'T use it fix it
 

MrMark

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Had neutral break at the mast head was in the shower and touch the drain and shower head and got tapped I was very lucky DON'T use it fix it



I don't think there is a choice. Everything metal in your house will be hot and you won't have anything 120 working and your multiwire branch circuits (it is only the so called shared neutral circuits that will have 240 v) will all have 240 on them and blow everything out that's plugged in. Another great idea.
 
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