Can I tap the pole?

[tomralph]

Or do I have to make a sub panel off the main?

Talked to the PoCo:

There are two sets of lugs in a pedestal. If they did not parallel the service run to the house there should be a set available for the barn.

Will this allow me to run conduit from the pedestal to the workshop (about 100' - 125') without having to run a sub panel off the main panel? If so, I plan to put a 150 amp panel with 4/0 AL cable.

What is best option? Run conduit or use a direct burial cable?

Would this do the trick? 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Black Stranded Al USE MHF Cable

 

[tyme2par4]

Pics, would be helpful, but from the limited information:
If there are empty lugs that can be used, you can run directly to a second panel.
I would go conduit, as it's easier for future work or repair.
Yes, that should be acceptable.

All of these would ultimately be subject to approval from your local inspector.

 

[Thumper68]

This how I did my shop, second set of lugs in the meter pan to a 200amp panel in the shop.

 

[LXCam]

Only if the lugs are dual rated if there isn't a spare set. The downside maybe would be you'll need to size the conductor for the overcurrent protection. A picture would really help too.

 

[tomralph]

This how I did my shop, second set of lugs in the meter pan to a 200amp panel in the shop.

I would like to run 200 amp wire just in case, but the calculators are showing #250 for AL and 3/0 for copper.

 

[tomralph]

Pics, would be helpful, but from the limited information:
If there are empty lugs that can be used, you can run directly to a second panel.
I would go conduit, as it's easier for future work or repair.
Yes, that should be acceptable.

All of these would ultimately be subject to approval from your local inspector.

I would like to open the pedestal but it is tagged by the PoCo, they did offer to come out and open it up for me. Just hate making them come out to open it for 30 seconds to snap some pics.

Building should be up on 5/1, signed the papers yesterday. Plan to have an electrician come out and check if that works.

If it does I will rough in an outlet and some lights, run the conduit and wire, then have him do the hook ups, get the inspector to sign it off. Probably wont have the entire shop roughed in since the walls wont be up and I am planning on putting conduit on the wall. Just need the sign off kind of thing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would like to run 200 amp wire just in case, but the calculators are showing #250 for AL and 3/0 for copper.

Yes u need 250Kcmil Al or 3/0 cu because the next gauge smaller than those are not rated for 200a.

Do u really need 200a?

The pertinent info missing here is what loads u will have and how many prople.

I would like to open the pedestal but it is tagged by the PoCo, they did offer to come out and open it up for me. Just hate making them come out to open it for 30 seconds to snap some pics.

Building should be up on 5/1, signed the papers yesterday. Plan to have an electrician come out and check if that works.

If it does I will rough in an outlet and some lights, run the conduit and wire, then have him do the hook ups, get the inspector to sign it off. Probably wont have the entire shop roughed in since the walls wont be up and I am planning on putting conduit on the wall. Just need the sign off kind of thing.

Theres no way around it.

Have to know what u have.

 

[tomralph]

Yes u need 250Kcmil Al or 3/0 cu because the next gauge smaller than those are not rated for 200a.

Do u really need 200a?

The pertinent info missing here is what loads u will have and how many prople.



Theres no way around it.

Have to know what u have.

5HP 230V compressor
230V 52A welder
2 post lift (220V 30A)
Various wood working items (lathe, chop saw, table saw)
Metal Lathe (not sure on its power needs yet)
1.5 HP (13A on 120V) Drill press
Fridge
Man Cave (TV, small electronics, etc.)

2 people most of the time, sometimes 3.

 

[Thumper68]

My thoughts on this go to the buy once cry once.

Wire it for 200 and you will never be sorry.

There are many times in my shop where the compressor will be running (or starting) while some one is using the 5hp table saw and someone else will be welding or cutting (Plasma)

I like knowing that no matter what is going on there will be no brown outs.

On a side note after I upgraded to the 5hp table saw I was browning out everyone on the transformer every time I kicked it on, Poco had to come out and install a new bigger transformer.

I also have elec heat (boiler) and that will use a good portion of available power.

A lot of the guys here will tell you to just size your service for what you have now or think you will have, I had no idea when I built the shop that I would have elec heat (plan was for propane boiler) and a 5hp table saw.

I'm sure glad I went big.... for the few extra dollars it cost.

 

[tomralph]

That is my thought as well. Go big and never worry about it.

Not sure I will be able to easily run NG to it so my heat options may be limited to electric, which would put a nice demand on the lines.

Can you cross underground power lines with an underground gas line? they would be at 90 degrees of each other...

The building has a large portion of the roof un-obstructed and facing south, may invest in some solar panels later to help offset that electric heat.

 

[tomralph]

Real quick on this, do I need 3 or 4 wires from the pedestal to the panel? Isolated ground?

 

[ToddW]

Go 200A and have room to grow vs re-doing it later.

Feel free to check my thread I have a similar one with lots of questions (and pages of replies) about doing 200A 100-1250' to my shop. I got 3/0 Copper cable because I wanted it done best as possible with least likelihood of issues in the next 5,10,20,30 years

 

[Bert_]

Real quick on this, do I need 3 or 4 wires from the pedestal to the panel? Isolated ground?

If your meter pedestal does not have a main breaker then 3 wires. If it does have a main breaker then you need 4 wires.

After the first disconnect you need to run a separate ground. Isolated ground is a completely different animal and you don't need to worry about it.

You can do a 200A if you want, going a little oversize isn't going to hurt anything. Just more work and a little more expense. But realistically a 100 or 125A service would be plenty unless you go the electric heat route. Natural gas would likely be quite a bit cheaper in the long run.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Real quick on this, do I need 3 or 4 wires from the pedestal to the panel? Isolated ground?

Regardless of which one u need to run keep in mind u have to use full size wire. U cannot size the wire based off of 310.15(b)(7) which is for feeding the load of a dwelling.

If your meter pedestal does not have a main breaker then 3 wires. If it does have a main breaker then you need 4 wires.

After the first disconnect you need to run a separate ground. Isolated ground is a completely different animal and you don't need to worry about it.

You can do a 200A if you want, going a little oversize isn't going to hurt anything. Just more work and a little more expense. But realistically a 100 or 125A service would be plenty unless you go the electric heat route. Natural gas would likely be quite a bit cheaper in the long run.

and dont forget rods, isolated neutral bar and added ground bar in subpanel

And this is the reason why i said above that u need to know what is in the pedestal

 

[tomralph]

I will have them come out and open the panel next week when I am home and I'll post it

 

[tomralph]

Measured it today (finally got a chance to). It is 52' from pole to building. I figure it will be 60' of wire.

Looks like I need 250 AL SER... Though some online calculators say, can I get away with 0/4 AL MHF.

I plan to bury it in conduit from meter to the building.

Is this the right wire? https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/250-mcm-xlp-use-2-aluminum-building-wire.html

 

[wyliesdiesels]

u CANNOT use SER underground.

The link is the correct wire. U will need 3 lengths of that and 1 length of #6.

What did u discover in the pedestal?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You best not go anywhere near the pole around here. The PoCo owns your meter and from the weatherhead on your building to the pole...

Tommy

 

[Norcal]

Regardless of which one u need to run keep in mind u have to use full size wire. U cannot size the wire based off of 310.15(b)(7) which is for feeding the load of a dwelling.



and dont forget rods, isolated neutral bar and added ground bar in subpanel

And this is the reason why i said above that u need to know what is in the pedestal

That table was removed in the 2014 NEC. Load calc's are required to use smaller conductors for a dwelling.

 

[Cmreschke]

Ok a few thoughts on this,
You need a load calc, size your conductors to the load calc. If your load calc is less than 180 amps then 4/0 aluminum is ok on a 200 amp breaker (next size up).

Your talking about running straight to your detached building, what about a disconnect? Grouping of disconnects required.

 

[tomralph]

u CANNOT use SER underground.

The link is the correct wire. U will need 3 lengths of that and 1 length of #6.

What did u discover in the pedestal?

They are coming to open it tomorrow. Their email before states:

There are two sets of lugs in a pedestal. If they did not parallel the service run to the house there should be a set available for the barn. Contact the operations department when you need the pedestal opened.

The panel inside the house does not appear to have a parallel run to it, though I would not know what it would look like if they had. It looks like every other panel I have opened, 4 wires coming in...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That table was removed in the 2014 NEC. Load calc's are required to use smaller conductors for a dwelling.

I keep forgetting that.

Though some states may still be on 2011...

 

[AntonLargiader]

Though some states may still be on 2011...

Like mine. According to NEMA we adopted 2011 in 2014, and the electrician at Lowes says we are usually about three years behind. So we may be adopting 2014 later this year.

https://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Documents/NEC-Adoption-Map-PDF.pdf

EDIT: some are still on 2008.

 

[tomralph]

We are 2014 here for the NEC

Am I still good with those conductors?

2" conduit should work, the online calculator says I am 40.14% full with the 3 - 250's and 1 - #6

I assume it is #6 for the grounding wire (just the part that goes to the rods)?

 

[Cmreschke]

Are you installing in a 200 amp disconnect at the meter base?
#6 aluminum too small for an egc, needs #4 aluminum. (Assuming al, because your feeders are al.)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Whoops i goofed on the ground wire. U need a #4 al for 200a breaker.

The 4th wire is the ground wire that goes between the neutral bar in the main and the ground bar in the sub. Has nothing to do with ground rods.

Heres a pic:

The grounding electrode conductor goes from ground bar in sub to rods.

2" should be fine but i would go with 2 1/2" to make it easier.

 

[Cmreschke]

I'm thinking he wants to go directly from the meter base to his panel in the detached structure, skipping the disconnect and making his new panel the first means of disconnect.

 

[tomralph]

I'm thinking he wants to go directly from the meter base to his panel in the detached structure, skipping the disconnect and making his new panel the first means of disconnect.

Correct. The meter base has 2 sets of lugs. I want to treat the house and the shop as two independent systems. I hope I can do that... hopefully.

If I have to treat the wrokshop as a sub panel, it got a whole lot more expensive... panel replacement in the house, longer wiring, etc. The meter is between the house and the workshop, dang near exact middle (55' one way and 50' the other).

Based on the picture above I see 3 wires from the Utility Meter to 'main', I see 4 wires to a sub panel.

 

[Cmreschke]

The problem is you need to group your mains. What that means is that your first means of disconnects need to be located in the same location.

 

[Cmreschke]

Do you have a disconnect for the house at the pole?

 

[tomralph]

Do you have a disconnect for the house at the pole?

Their email states:

"There is not a disconnect switch in the pedestal."

****.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Correct. The meter base has 2 sets of lugs. I want to treat the house and the shop as two independent systems. I hope I can do that... hopefully.

If I have to treat the wrokshop as a sub panel, it got a whole lot more expensive... panel replacement in the house, longer wiring, etc. The meter is between the house and the workshop, dang near exact middle (55' one way and 50' the other).

Based on the picture above I see 3 wires from the Utility Meter to 'main', I see 4 wires to a sub panel.

Aww ok.

So u only need 3 wire- u can skip the #4 AL.

But if u have to group your mains then you would replace the pedestal with a meter main and dual disconnects NOT the house panel. However the house panel would have to be switched to 4-wire. Another can of worms.

 

[tomralph]

Well now I am getting confused.

Lets start over...

Requirement:

100 amp service to workshop, I load calculated it out and I am about 80amps peak. I would like to run 200 amp, just so I never have to deal with or worry about it again. Like if we get a 50-amp RV in the future to replace the 30-amp feed our current takes. Or if my wife finally lets me get that plasma cutter or larger air-compressor .

Current situation:

Meter/Pedestal is 50' from the house, roughly 80' from the house panel, the house has a 200 amp panel (see attached picture). The house has 3 large conductors coming in and a smaller bare copper line exiting the bottom from the neutral bar (not sure that ground is visible in the picture with all the other wires in the gutter).



The pedestal/meter has 2 sets of lugs, 1 set is occupied by the house. (Picture coming soon)

The workshop will be 55' from the meter/pedestal.

Desired outcome (my hopes and dreams):

The workshop uses the second set of lugs from the pedestal/meter and I am able to put the 200 amp service in the workshop.

Questions to the experts here:

Can this be done? If so, what do I need to pull it off? If it can't be done, what is the most feasible way to get it done?

Thank you in advance! This place is awesome

 

[Cmreschke]

Aww ok.

So u only need 3 wire- u can skip the #4 AL.

But if u have to group your mains then you would replace the pedestal with a meter main and dual disconnects NOT the house panel. However the house panel would have to be switched to 4-wire. Another can of worms.

Wait, why would he only need to run 3 wire to the new , but have to add a 4th to the house? Imo should be 4 wire to both or just take a sub feed from the house to the barn.

 

[Cmreschke]

Out of curiosity, what size service do you have from the power company? 200 amp or more? Have you done a load calculation on your house?

 

[tomralph]

Pretty sure this describes what I am trying to do:



I have been reading the NEC and trying to piece this together.

There is this in the NEC 230.40, I think this applies as well:

Exception No. 3: A single-family dwelling unit and its
accessory structures shall be permitted to have one set of
service-entrance conductors run to each from a single service
drop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground
service conductors, or service lateral.

 

[Cmreschke]

230.72 (a) tells you your service disconnects need to be grouped.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wait, why would he only need to run 3 wire to the new , but have to add a 4th to the house? Imo should be 4 wire to both or just take a sub feed from the house to the barn.

I didnt finish that comment. Whoops.

If he has to group his mains and put in a disconnect at the pedestal then he would have to run 4-wire to both structures.

 

[tomralph]

Can I put a disconnect and still consider the line a service entrance or does it become a feeder then?

Something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...General-Duty-Safety-Switch-TGN3324R/202978662

1 disconnect per building.

 

[Cmreschke]

That disconnect would have to be service rated. I don't know that it is. I can only guess you would need to be fused as well (I'm not really sure).

I believe these would still be considered service entrance conductors and not feeders.

Again what is the size of the service at the pedestal. What is your load calc for your home? Ad the two loaf calc and that will tell you if you have enough service.

I think you need to add a 4th wire to the house, and then pull 4 wires to the barn (that's with putting disconnects up at your pedestal.) If you just want to come off of your homes panel then you need 4 wires from home to barn. Either way you need ground rods at the barn and seperate the neutrals from grounds.

Your ahj should be able to let you know what he will accept as well. I'd give the building department a call.