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Can somebody educate me on Common Whitworyh Sizes

Shelbylex

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Good evening
I have a random Whitworth Koken socket. Was recently thinking that I do not know much about this sizes (older British cars I presume)
Can somebody educate me on common sizes (and possible uses)
Like 9/16-1/2 being able to do majority of bolts on 1964 1/2 - 1969 Mustangs(from what I read on this board)

Thank you. Trying to get some education. : )
 
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2oolhound

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I agree with SGKent, the sizes might be close but not worth it. If you want sae get them, they are cheap. Same with metric.
 
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Shelbylex

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Thank you
I was trying to see if it’s worth getting W1/2-9/16 combo (I mean DOE wrench) and may be another one if the guy sells to either keep (if this is very common size - sometimes people borrow tools from me) or to resell if it is not useful. The neighbour wanted around $7 per wrench if he finds them while cleaning the garage. He thinks he had Craftsman ones which he did not use for ages. He guesses 1-2 wrenches, no sets...
 
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Professional Tool User

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I don't know about bolt head and nut dimensions, but you really have to watch out when it comes to thread pitch. I bought a used made in England Record 34P vice where one of holes for the swivel base was filled a broken off stud. Turns out the thread pitch was a Whitworth size, not SAE.
 

dutchgray

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Only worth getting Whitworth tools if you work on British made stuff from the 1950's or earlier, which almost certainly will be Whitworth, usage dropped off as we changed to UNC and UNF and then metric in the 70's
 

rockettgpw

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Dave455

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Tell me what you want to know and I’ll do my best!

It’s reasonably simple. The size on the socket is the size of the bolt, not the size of the bolt head. So, while you need to know that a 1/4 UNF bolt has a 7/16 SAE bolt head. In the British system, a 1/4 BSF bolt uses a 1/4 BSF wrench!

There are two thread forms, Whitworth, now technically BSW (British Standard Whitworth) and BSF (British Standard Fine). The former are coarse threads, optimised for cast iron, the latter are fine threads, for steel. Very similar to UNC or UNF.

BSW threads originally used relatively large bolt heads, BSF slightly smaller. This is why many wrenches have both sizes marked e.g. 3/16 BSW and 1/4 BSF. Since the war, the large bolt heads were dropped, so now many wrenches are just marked with one size, e.g. 1/4 BS.

BSW and BSF threads were used universally until ‘unification’ (when the U.K. Canada and U.S. adopted the same system). The aerospace industry was the first to go Unified, followed by the motor industry (in ‘58 I think). So if you have one of these products that post date this, use your SAE wrenches.

Some industries never really adopted Unified threads at all. The bike industry for one. The machine tool industry was another. Some machines (Colchester lathes) will have BS bolts on older machines, Unified on newer. Some makers never made the switch, and are producing stuff with BS bolts to this day. Many went from BS to metric and never used unified.

So, which sizes? On most cars and bikes you can do probably 80% of what you need with 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 BS wrenches. If you start playing with things like hub nuts you will need bigger, and likewise on machine tools. If your Mustang uses 1/2 and 9/16 wrenches, these will be for 5/16 and 3/8 bolts. The BS equivalent would simply be 5/16 and 3/8.

You might also need some BA sizes. BA are the British equivalent of the SAE ‘numbered’ series. These are common because the U.K. never adopted the ‘numbered’ series, so BA continued till ISO metric was adopted, if it ever was. Some industries never did. Koken offer some very nice BA sockets, in both regular and deep.

Personally, I would hang on to any BS tools, certainly in the popular sizes. I have a ‘road box’ that I do a lot of work from, and I always keep 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 BS wrenches in there, together with 2 and 4 BA.

If I’m setting up machines, I take a full set of BS box end wrenches and open enders with me, as well as 3/8 drive sockets. In my ‘electrical’ box, I keep 0,2,4 and 6 BA for electrical terminals.
 
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Shelbylex

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Thank you, Gentlemen! You are truly a wealth of knowledge.
Dave455, I appreciate the information on the most common sizes in use. I guess W1/2-W9/16 would be more of industrial application then.
It’s always amazing to me how much knowledge I can get on this board.

I will speak to a neighbour and try to see if I can get a better deal on them.

I will post the pictures if he finds them today and agrees to lower the price
 
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mhejl

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These were also used on British war birds. I sold my set of Snap On sockets to a gentleman here that does restorations on these old Merlin engines. I'm glad they went to such a noble cause.
 

Dave455

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Thank you, Gentlemen! You are truly a wealth of knowledge.
Dave455, I appreciate the information on the most common sizes in use. I guess W1/2-W9/16 would be more of industrial application then.

Yes, essentially!

But, bear in mind that the most common pipe thread standard, worldwide (but not the U.S.) is BSP (British Standard Pipe). If pipe fittings feature a hex, it will be a BS size.

Now, I know a lot of fitters and plumbers tend to use adjustable wrenches, but sometimes the correct tool works best, and it’s often one of the larger sizes.

3/4 BS is another size that I tend to keep around, as it’s the standard size in the U.K. for gas bottle threads. I keep a few older BS wrenches in my plumbing box too.
 
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Dave455

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These were also used on British war birds. I sold my set of Snap On sockets to a gentleman here that does restorations on these old Merlin engines. I'm glad they went to such a noble cause.

Yes, and post war aircraft too!

The Comet was all BSF, and a lot of the engineers, even the old school guys, found it odd working on a jet airliner with BS tools!
 

ZRX61

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These were also used on British war birds. I sold my set of Snap On sockets to a gentleman here that does restorations on these old Merlin engines. I'm glad they went to such a noble cause.


I was given my set by a guy who hadn't used them in 20 years, I used them the same week.
 

Gmonkee

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I have a full ranging BSW set and other than the cool factor no uses for it. It was fun to search and find them all over a bunch of years however.

I just keep them in reserve stocks in case one day some real use crops up.
 

Two Speed

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Besides automotive, there was an itilian made tv studio camera tripod that used whitworth fasteners.The name escapes me at the moment even though I used to service them (been a while).
If you own a Record vise, at least here in Canada, if you have a swivel base that locks down with a wrench (vs the built in lever on the base locking screw) it is also a whitworth wrench for proper fit (metric or sae both a sloppy fit).
 

dubdoc

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{([ shudder !])} I just started rebuilding a classic Triumph motorcycle and the Whitworth is driving me crazy. Some will fit SAE, some work with metric wrenches and some get an adjustable. I replace anything I can with stainless metric bolts, but the Whitworth slithers on.
 

Dave455

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{([ shudder !])} I just started rebuilding a classic Triumph motorcycle and the Whitworth is driving me crazy. Some will fit SAE, some work with metric wrenches and some get an adjustable. I replace anything I can with stainless metric bolts, but the Whitworth slithers on.

Haha!

Mate, the only thing to do, is go all Whitworth, or BSC as appropriate!

You’ll keep the thing original, which is increasingly important, and you’ll find that life gets easier as, for most jobs, you will only need about 4 sizes of wrench!

I don’t know about the U.S. so much, but Whitworth Spanners and sockets, of very good quality, can be had for reasonable money here.

Think of it like drinking a liqueur you don’t much like. Take a big sip and the rest doesn’t taste too bad!
 
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dutchgray

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Besides automotive, there was an itilian made tv studio camera tripod that used whitworth fasteners.The name escapes me at the moment even though I used to service them (been a while).
If you own a Record vise, at least here in Canada, if you have a swivel base that locks down with a wrench (vs the built in lever on the base locking screw) it is also a whitworth wrench for proper fit (metric or sae both a sloppy fit).

Camera mounts were virtually all Whitworth, the current UNC standards are all the same dia and pitch as the Whitworth, its just the thread form is slightly different, this is so new can connect to the old. Of course the rest of the tripod can be anything.

All screws on an old Record vice should be BSW of BSF.
 

Tonyuk

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I worked on an old landrover once.

I dont know how they managed it, but it had a mix of metric, imperial and whitworth fasteners.

Also the components were made of cheese and rounded at the first glimpse of a spanner.

Never, ever again.
 

SGKent

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I used whitworth once in about 2500 engines built for people in the late 70's early 80's. An old MG engine for a show car. It leaked like a sieve so I had to line grind the caps a certain way and tighten up the oil slinger at the back. Really precision line boring to avoid damaging that area. AT $7 a wrench that seems way high. I was thinking gift if you can use them.
 

Al Borland

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Had Whitworth wrenches and sockets for screwing with english cars/motorcycles/bikes back in the 80s.
Never used them anymore so i "gifted" them into a friend's toolbox.
Great fun to watch. And recently got to watch his brother in law discover them.
 
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