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Can you really have too many lights??

Rocker4x4

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What do you think, can a guy make it too bright inside a work garage?? My whole life I've worked on things and always had shaded spots in garages. So I told the electrician I want plenty of light. He wants to use 4ft T5 6 bulb lights. He told me manufacture minimum spacing is 1 light per 300sq feet at 15ft high. Building is 40x72 ,14' walls, scissor truss, finished inside with white liner panels. With my sq footage that figures up to 9.5 lights. He told me to really make it bright he'd go 15 lights. that is about 1 light every 200sq ft. So attached is a quick drawling of layout (not to scale) I think it looks good, but I'm a bit worried you may have to wear sunglasses in there,, what are your thoughts??
 

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padroo

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I like it. How are you going to switch them on? Front, half back half, or in rows? I have never worked in a garage where there was too much light.
 

myredracer

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The electrician is just winging it.... What type of fixture? I think ordinary 4' T8 lamps may not be the best choice. Without getting into a proper calculation, it looks like to low a lighting level and uneven distribution. It might even be that fluorescent is not the best choice either.

First question is - what light level do you need? 10 footcandles, 50, 75 or 100? Makes a huge difference. Depends on the tasks being done in the room/area and could also be that you may even want it brighter in one area and less in another. Too low a level can affect productivity, work quality and cause fatigue. Too high can also cause problems. Glare from a fixture can also be a problem - bare lamps vs. a prismatic diffuser. Too much lumen output from a light with a small fixture can be too bright and cause glare if in the field of view. A fixture with an appropriate diffuser or reflector can help this, or install more lights with less output.

One thing that is commonly done is providing multi-level lighting by switching alternate lights or rows. I would suggest this regardless. Sometimes one light is left on as a night or safety light.

For even lighting distribution, lights should generally be spaced no farther apart than the vertical distance from work surface to the lights. If work surfaces are say 36" above the floor, lights would want to be 12' (144") apart max., not 185". This also depends partly on whether or not the lights have a prismatic lens and/or reflector that distributes the light more evenly to the sides.

Lights are usually spaced evenly by using the "1/4 spacing" method. Take overall dimension and divide by twice the number of lights. This number is the distance to an end wall then double that number to get the spacing between lights. This makes the distance from an end wall 1/2 the distance between lights and gives the most ideal lighting level distribution. For your shop and no. of lights shown, this would make the distance to an end wall 106" and between lights, 212". This automatically means the lights are too far apart.

Your dimensions show the overall length to be 88'-9". I would consider 8' fixtures of some sort in 10 per row to be an option. Would be cheaper to install as you'd have fewer points to wire to. 8' high output lamps may be the way to go.

You're not only investing a lot of money into this, you want the lighting level and quality to be good. The proper way of doing lighting design is by calculation using the lumen output of lamps, height of fixtures above work surface, coefficient of utilization (efficiency) of the light fixture and a light loss factor (LLF) to take into account the loss of lumen output over the life of the particular lamp being used and dirt buildup in the light fixture. A calculation also takes into account the color of the walls and whether or not it's a clean area or dirty environment which would darken the walls and reduce reflectance. A room with white walls and ceiling will always be the most efficient for lighting but will not work in a shop of course.

If you know how to do lighting calculations, it only takes minutes if you have the light fixture data handy. For a shop that size and cost, I would find someone who knows how to do it like say an electrical engineer. A bit of their time would not cost much. They can give you some options too.

I'm an EE and used to do this stuff for a living. Haven't done it for a long time now tho. - gives me a headache just thinking about it... :eyecrazy:
 
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Rocker4x4

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Not sure, I was thinking in rows. not sure if I should have 5 switches to control each row of three lights? That seems kind of a pain. I thought of 3 switches. (1) for first row from left, (2) does 2nd & 4th. (3) does 3rd and 5th? Row one would be by itself because that's going to be more of kitchen/party side. IDK. Getting the right lighting is such a pain. It took us forever to figure out the can light for the porch ceiling. It was 10' with total of 68' long but it wrapped around building. Ended up doing 10 LED can lights centered in ceiling, and glad I did that many. LED are not are bright. It turned out just right..
 
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Rocker4x4

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You are right, I add the 8" wall instead of subtracting it.
Let me see if I can get some more info on the lights, I do know they have the reflective mirror inside them. I asked him about the spacing from the wall being half distance from the other light spacing. His comment was, he was always told a light too close to a wall is wasted light?!? Not sure if I agree on that. I would loved to try to do the spacing calculation on this but im not sure if I have capabilities

The electrician is actually an old friend of mine that is semi-retired. He's done mainly large industrial light for large manufacturing companies. Of course there they had a EE do all the designing and he did the work. I may try and get in touch with the EE he worked with see if he has any input for me
 
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brewchief

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I don't know if you can have too much, at a certain point it seems that adding more lights doesn't really seem to change things much.
We just wrapped up my friends workshop space, 25x35 with 8' ceiling, walls and ceiling painted white, 19 6 bulb t-5 and 8 4 bulb t-5 all with a clear lens. It is bright and has basically no shadows but it's not like you need sunglasses. Only problem we have is that the room is insulated so well that the lights will bring the temp up if you are in the shop for a period of time.

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bzinsky

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What do you think, can a guy make it too bright inside a work garage?? My whole life I've worked on things and always had shaded spots in garages. So I told the electrician I want plenty of light. He wants to use 4ft T8 6 bulb lights. He told me manufacture minimum spacing is 1 light per 300sq feet at 15ft high. Building is 40x72 ,14' walls, scissor truss, finished inside with white liner panels. With my sq footage that figures up to 9.5 lights. He told me to really make it bright he'd go 15 lights. that is about 1 light every 200sq ft. So attached is a quick drawling of layout (not to scale) I think it looks good, but I'm a bit worried you may have to wear sunglasses in there,, what are your thoughts??

You definitely would want multiple switches. I don't think you can have too many if you have the ability to turn some off. Personally I'd put them on atleast 3 switches so you have some flexibility.

Also, when going with entirely new lights, I'd probably go with LED. LED doesn't make financial sense if you are replacing existing lighting, but with brand new lighting, it can be a much better investment.

Also consider motion sensor light switches. All the ones I've used perform flawlessly. They prevent you from leaving the lights on and add some security.
 

chruler

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Would it make sense to have two switches for the lights? One switch would turn on half of them, and the other would turn on the rest.

It might save money, and bulb life to use half the lighting when full blown brightness is not required.

Orange = lights activated by one switch
White = lights activated by the second switch.

garage%20lights%201_zpsko5exenk.jpg
 

matt_i

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The way i calculate this is 15 fixtures x 6 bulbs x 32W per T8 tube = 2560W, or around a ~20A continuous draw on a 120vac circuit.

It is pretty cheap, at $0.15 per kW-h, thats around $0.40 per hour....depends on how many hours you work out there...but still need to plan circuits for that much draw.

I would divide it up into 2 or 3 circuits, depending on how you work. Another alternative is to have "house lights" which is a grid of of CFL bulbs for basic light when you just are going to go out looking for a screwdriver. My shop came with those, and I supplemented with T5HO task lighting where needed.
 

DC73

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Would it make sense to have two switches for the lights? One switch would turn on half of them, and the other would turn on the rest.

I did something very similar to this in my shop. I put 9 lights on 2 switches in each 1/2 of my shop (18 lights total). This gives me three different levels of lighting in each 1/2 of the shop (4 lights in a diamond pattern on one switch, or 5 lights in an "X" pattern on 2nd switch, or all 9 lights with both switches on).

Worked out perfectly for my needs.

DC
 
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Rocker4x4

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So Gil, Thanks for giving me the idea to talk to the electrical engineer. I never even thought of it till you mention it. Like I said the EE I know has done systems in the past for thousands of lights for all different applications for his company. The lights I got he is very familiar with, its same ones he used hundreds of times before. He also had a formula he used to calculate the amount of lighting needed with those lights. We went through some numbers calculated it out and his formula came up with 20 fixtures needed for general purpose. He said for warehouse lighting, it would be less. For machine shop/ assembly line it would be more. Most the formula I could understand (sq footage, # of watts, etc..) but he had some numbers I had no clue how he came up with. When I ask him, his comment "that's from 35yrs of experience" so can't really argue with that. He said there are a number of variables to take into consideration including wall color, height, dust/dirt on bulbs over the years etc.. So I mention trying to keep things multiples of 3 for easier spacing. So I could do 18 or 21 lights. or if I stayed with 20, I could do 4 lights across??
He also did say the spacing at the walls should be half of light to light spacing. so lets say at 20 lights, that means I need them spaced 1 every 138sq foot. that's around a 12x12 area. So today I'm going to try pencil this thing out. I'll post later what I come up with. If anyone gets time, feel free to pencil it out see what you come up with. any help with this would be great!!
 

dcmus

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My space 28x31. Have six 6 bulb T5 Hi Bay fixture, one 8ft T8 over bench and 350 Watt LED just in case and I'm happy.
 

warmpancakes

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My garage is 25x35

I have 32, 4 (4 rows of 8 ) foot LED fixtures in it, You cannot cast a shadow

its perfect,

also current draw 4.8 amps

this is 24 of the lights
DSCF5877_zps801rfytr.jpg
 
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coljar

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Switches, wire, and conduit are cheap if you look at the long range picture. Electric will continue to rise and the more lights you can turn off that are not in the area you're working, the better. The very minimum I'd use would be 5 switches.

As far as it being too bright, once you get in your 50's, it's never too bright.
 
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Ray916MN

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A bit depends on the fixtures and what you put in the building and more importantly what you put along the walls. My building has the same ceiling height as yours but is only 1200 sq. ft. (roughly 40% of the size of yours). With 88 T8 bulbs on strip fixtures (This would be the equivalent of about 35 six bulb fixtures in your shop) against the ceiling and another 32 bulbs over the work benches and under the racks set at 7' this is what it looks like.

2014%20Winter%20Hibernation_zpstrsikk5l.jpg


My electrician friend thought it would be way too bright, but in the end simply thinks it is well lit.
 

TrickVert

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Holy cr@p, Ray! :shocking: :)

As another data point for the OP, I have twelve 4-ft two-bulb T-8 shop-light-style fixtures with 5000K bulbs in my 24'x24' garage. The ceiling is galvanized corrugated metal, as are the walls 3.5 feet up (but most of it is hidden by shelves, cabinets, equipment, etc.). The upper portion of the walls is unfinished OSB. I used two of THESE switches to break up the lights into pairs. One switch set controls the left side (front/middle/back) and the other the right. Probably overkill, but it allows me to turn off the lights that are hidden by the raised garage door, or add light only to the workbench/work area at rear of the garage if necessary. (There's an 8-ft 4-bulb fixture over the bench, as well).

EDIT: For anyone considering these fixtures, I used "chrome-like" paint on the reflectors, which greatly improved the light output.

I also installed four incandescent fixtures with 100-watt-equivalent halogen bulbs for quick in-and-out trips. The incandescents seem to do a decent job of general lighting... that is, until you've had the fluorescents on and turn them off, leaving only the halogens. Then, it looks like a cave! I'm very pleased with my setup. With all the lights burning, I have plenty of light for just about any project short of surgery, and I like the flexibility of the multiple switches.

These are a couple of "nearly-finished" pics during the update.

IMG_20150910_234641617_zpsjzxckwd0.jpg


IMG_20150910_234625270_zps7g50jydg.jpg


Andy
 
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Rocker4x4

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Wow, so that is roughly what 35 would look like.. that's pretty nice really. Funny the EE said to me, your eyes at 35 will not be the same at 50. you'll want the lighting!
Here are a few layouts I came up with. each square is 2ft increments. also I made the size of overall building 40x72, easy to work with even number for now. so i'll have to take in consideration of the 8" thick wall

p.s. I am pulling my hair out to get this right the first time!! Need to figure it out because they are wanting to put blocking up where lights go before the metal ceiling so i'll have something to hang lights too
 

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TrickVert

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Keep in mind my ceilings are only ~8-feet high. And your EE is right, the eyes do degrade over time :( I'm now fifty, and have noticed that I want (OK, *need*) more light than in the past for many tasks.

Andy
 

gpflepsen

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I'd do a 4x6 array and definitely not span the depth with only three fixtures. Maybe even a 4x7 array.

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Ch3No2

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More is better as with switches you can cut it down...
20 x 44...15 4' 4 tube lights...I can have 10,20,40 or 60 tubes on with 4 switches
 

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Eriehunter

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IMO I would go with plan 2, add 1 more column of four lights for a total of 24 fixtures, this will make the space between the ends of the fixtures a little closer and you shouldn't have a dead spot on the floor between them. Hard to tell w/o the real photometrics of the fixture you chose. You will also want some lower hanging task lighting over top the work benches so leave provisions for those.
 

NUTTSGT

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Too much is . . . just enough.


As long as you get them wired/switched, I don't think you can have too many lights. I'll second or third having a set of lights for the quick in/out so you're not turning everything on.
 

dhubbard422

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A bit depends on the fixtures and what you put in the building and more importantly what you put along the walls. My building has the same ceiling height as yours but is only 1200 sq. ft. (roughly 40% of the size of yours). With 88 T8 bulbs on strip fixtures (This would be the equivalent of about 35 six bulb fixtures in your shop) against the ceiling and another 32 bulbs over the work benches and under the racks set at 7' this is what it looks like.

2014%20Winter%20Hibernation_zpstrsikk5l.jpg


My electrician friend thought it would be way too bright, but in the end simply thinks it is well lit.

Wow! I've always liked your shop, but I never really realized how well lit it is. 120 bulbs... a 4' bulb for every 10 sq ft! I'm doing my lighting plan and I'm curious which bulbs you used. I'm guessing 32W, 2850 Lumens, 5000K - is this close? Or?

I've also been looking at Platonic Solid's layouts and I have been somewhat surprised by how much light he recommends and by how many more lumens it appears to take to realize certain measured goals on the work surface.

Anyway, if you could chime in with which bulbs you used, that would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

kj_mustang

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When your eyes get older like mine and you have to work on small items, you will appreciate all the light you can get. My shop was figured for 100 lumen. 32' x 28' x 16' with 12 - 8' long 4 bulb T8 fixtures using 5000k bulbs.

DSC07049.JPG
 

LEVE

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Can you have too much light? IMHO, no. I had more lights in my garage than I did in my house and I wanted more.

What's the downside? The only downside I ever found was that often when I was working on a vehicle I'd be twisting around, or find myself under the vehicle looking up and find myself looking right at a ceiling light.

IMHO... the more light the better and as you age it's not just better, it's a must.
 

Ray916MN

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Wow! I've always liked your shop, but I never really realized how well lit it is. 120 bulbs... a 4' bulb for every 10 sq ft! I'm doing my lighting plan and I'm curious which bulbs you used. I'm guessing 32W, 2850 Lumens, 5000K - is this close? Or?

I've also been looking at Platonic Solid's layouts and I have been somewhat surprised by how much light he recommends and by how many more lumens it appears to take to realize certain measured goals on the work surface.

Anyway, if you could chime in with which bulbs you used, that would be appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks for the compliment, sorry for the delayed response. Forgot what bulbs I had bought, so I had to look at my spares, which of course were tucked up high and in the back.

The bulbs are 32W Sylvania 6500K T8s, 2800 lumens. The lighting was configured to throw ~200 lumens/sq. ft. with objective of 100 lumens/sq. ft. at working height. I used the "you lose half the light to the ceiling" when using strip fixtures rule of thumb.

The effects of ceiling height, and wall and ceiling losses are the toughest things to estimate in my opinion. OTOH, if you imagine a mirror as being what a lossless reflective surface will look like, it is easy to understand that the losses to walls and ceilings are very significant so these are very important to consider.
 
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Rocker4x4

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Well, I'm going for it. Putting blocking in for 20 lights. Going to have a lot of money in lighting, but I haven't cut one corner on this entire project so why start now!!
I'm thinking of having 4 circuits, here is the way I was going to have them on switches. Where row 1 & 2 is will be a kitchen type party area. so I can turn have that bay on or all of it and not the rest. or I can turn on entire building with have the light. See any changes I should make?
 

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dhubbard422

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Thanks for the compliment, sorry for the delayed response. Forgot what bulbs I had bought, so I had to look at my spares, which of course were tucked up high and in the back.

The bulbs are 32W Sylvania 6500K T8s, 2800 lumens. The lighting was configured to throw ~200 lumens/sq. ft. with objective of 100 lumens/sq. ft. at working height. I used the "you lose half the light to the ceiling" when using strip fixtures rule of thumb.

The effects of ceiling height, and wall and ceiling losses are the toughest things to estimate in my opinion. OTOH, if you imagine a mirror as being what a lossless reflective surface will look like, it is easy to understand that the losses to walls and ceilings are very significant so these are very important to consider.

Thanks for taking the time to look up specs on your lamps! It is appreciated.
 
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Rocker4x4

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So I just want to clarify, I had a huge typo in my original post!! That day I was researching about different lights. and had both t5 and t8 in my head. The 3 sample lights I picked up that I want to go with are 6 bulb T5 programmed start fixtures!!
NOT T8!!
That makes a bit of difference on lighting output. Also the EE said he likes the programmed start b/c of how much longer it makes bulbs last. T5 bulbs are pricey to begin with so I kinda agree
 
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