Cans or Fluorescents?

[HIRISC]

Hi all,

My wife and I are building out a garage condo and I could use a little help deciding between recessed cans (6") and 48" T-8 fluorescent.

The location is under the mezzanine (colored red in the plans below) - approx 16'W x 32'L.

This will be my primary workspace in the condo - I'll be working on cars, assembling chassis components, welding, etc., so I need it to be well lit.

Based on reading here, it seems the consensus is that I need a minimum of 100 lumens per sq ft. I have space for either 21 cans or up to 12 4' x 2 bulb fluorescent fixtures. I like the built-in nature of cans, but the ceiling is 8.5' high, so I could give up a few inches to fluorescent fixtures.

The max lumens I've been able to find for 90w bulbs is about 1300. 21 cans x 1300 lumens divided by 512 square feet = about 53 lumens per square foot. Not dark, but not super bright.

4' fluorescent bulbs put out +/- 2500 lumens each or 5000 per fixture x 12 divided by 512 = 117 lumens psft. Even with some loss due to the diffusing cover, this seems like a no brainer.

I'd like to get opinions from those more experienced. Is there anyway to get more light out of cans? Is there a reason not to go with T8's? (note: I will be running a stereo receiver in the space, as well as a couple of big screen TV's - eg interference with T8's?)

Here are the two plans - look at the red side for the lighting layout.

Thanks in advance.

Cans:

Fluorescent:

***Here is what someone else did with the same size space. The lighting level seemed low (I wouldn't use tan paint in mine).

 

[aandpdan]

This will be my primary workspace in the condo - I'll be working on cars, assembling chassis components, welding, etc., so I need it to be well lit.

I'd go with the T8's. See the "cone" shaped lighting from the cans in the pictures you posted? Cans are decorative but don't give an even lighting. They are probably not the best for a shop.

Is there a reason not to go with T8's? (note: I will be running a stereo receiver in the space, as well as a couple of big screen TV's - eg interference with T8's?)

Spend the money and get fixtures with a good ballast. They will probably still be cheaper than all the cans and trim rings. I have T8's in my shop, 8 fixtures, and haven't noticed any interference problems. I am using an external antenna on the FM however.

 

[larry4406]

If you have living space above the garage, and if it needs to be sealed with 5/8 gypsum for fire rating, then ditch the cans and go surface mounted lights. I don't think the cans have sufficient fire rating.

 

[bucs012]

very happy with my t8's! Totally different from the light you show with cans. The can photo you show looks more like a showroom or art gallery? JMO.

 

[krehmkej]

+whatever on the T8s. Just upgraded my shop from T12 and added 4 more fixtures. Cans seem to work best as "spot" or accent lighting. Not something I'd want in my workspace.

 

[e30 Memorial]

I recently installed 6" 65watt rated cans with compact fluorescent R40 bulbs in my basement to garage remodel. They're a 23watt replacement for 120watt bulbs. They put out alot less heat than 65watt bulbs and twice the light for less power. I went with can lights because of the low head room remodel into my old craftsman home basement. I was very reluctant because of all the mentioned concerns, but after all said and done it worked out good. The comment I get from most people is how bright it is. No shadowing and nice esthetics.

 

[356vintage]

I'd go with recessed fluorescent fixtures with electronic ballasts and daylight lamps. The recessed fixtures will finish almost flush with the ceiling and not take up the usual 3-4 inches below the ceiling. Very clean look in a shop.
Plenty of light too.
Rich

 

[HIRISC]

Thanks all - looks like fluorescents win by a mile - as I've been leaning.

I agree re the cans - they look great in my house, but in my man-cave, they won't provide enough light.

I'll go with a good quality residential T8.

I have living space above, but no insulation in the joists to worry about re cans. Now that fluorescents, I may consider insulating the floor for more sound reduction.

I'd put in the recessed fixtures, but my joists for the mezzanine are 16" on center and I've not been able to find a troffer light that will fit in the space. In any event, the joists run against my lighting direction. With 8.5' of head space I'm not too worried about the 3" of fixture height.

Anyone have experience with the Lithonia 4 bulb T8 residential fixture from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[HIRISC]

very happy with my t8's! Totally different from the light you show with cans. The can photo you show looks more like a showroom or art gallery? JMO.

I agree.. no showroom lighting needed - I need workspace lighting.

I like your setup - seen that during my research.

Nice cars too

 

[irisservice]

For work area lighting I say Halogen or metal halides.
More natural lights.
tX lights do great on general lighting but when your at your bench nothing will beat out Halogen or metal halide...
Most showrooms,Building lobbies, Tunnels and well light places use Halogen or metal halides.

 

[irisservice]

Hi all,

***Here is what someone else did with the same size space. The lighting level seemed low (I wouldn't use tan paint in mine).

PS those are incandescent bulbs....Please don't use that...but check this out bring over a 75w Halogen flood bulb or 2 and try it out over there setup...

Like this bulb
http://www.bulbamerica.com/OSRAM-SY...0-Halogen-Bulb-3942-prod.htm?category_id=2270

 

[HIRISC]

That seems like it would throw more light than the bulbs used above, but I'm still a little worried about overall light strength - aka lumens.

That bulb is rated at 1130 lumens x 21 lights = 23730/512 sq ft = 46.34 lumens per square foot (or footcandles).

What I read that's pushing me to try to exceed 100 FC:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21796624/Lighting-Handbook-Foot-Candles-and-Lux-for-Architectural-Lighting

 

[irisservice]

Lumens are very important but so is CRI ( color rendering index) which halogen is 100...
The color rendering index (CRI) (sometimes called color rendition index), is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reproduce the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source. Light sources with a high CRI are desirable in color-critical applications....

You have a unique situation...you have someone with a similar setup..so buying 4-5 bulbs and trying it out will help you say cans or no cans..for less than $30 you can make an accurate decision.

 

[aandpdan]

I have living space above, but no insulation in the joists to worry about re cans. Now that fluorescents, I may consider insulating the floor for more sound reduction.

Definitely insulate the floor. Not only will it make it a lot quieter upstairs but it will also keep the floors a lot warmer and cut down drafts when you open the garage doors.

Not that it ever gets cold in MN.

 

[HIRISC]

You have a unique situation...you have someone with a similar setup..so buying 4-5 bulbs and trying it out will help you say cans or no cans..for less than $30 you can make an accurate decision.

That's a good idea, but I don't have access to that unit any longer. I also will have different paint color, floor color and black cabinets against the long wall so the results would vary anyway.

Rather than take a chance that I won't have sufficient can-only lighting, I'm going to put a perimeter of 20 cans around 10 (4x) fluorescent fixtures. All together, it's overkill, but If I'm just running around and/or working on something on my workbenches, I can just use the can lights. If I'm working on a larger project or simply want more light, I can switch on one or both rows of FL's instead/in addition.

A little more expensive to do it this way, but then I don't have to worry about what if's.

 

[HIRISC]

Ok, noob question: Can we install these troffers in 16" OC floor joists?

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

It doesn't appear that the frames expand like new construction recessed can frames do, but I am

Specs:
This lensed troffer is flanged for use in drywall ceilings. Can be used in almost any application needing general illumination. Uses two 32 watt T8 lamps and has an electronic ballast. Has a white flush steel frame and door latches and hinges from either side.

* Low profile design ideal for restricted plenum spaces
* Housing and door frame interface to provide light seal without the use of foam gasketing
* Diffuser provides reduced lamp image
* Hemmed sides provide smooth edges for easy handling during installation

# Assembled Depth (In Inches) : 4 in
# Assembled Height (In Inches) : 47.5 in
# Assembled Weight (In LBS) : 17.75 lb
# Assembled Width (In Inches) : 11.5 in

 

[tcianci]

The biggest advantage of the T8 fixtures is that they can be surface mounted as shown in post #4. This allows you to take advantage of the white ceiling as a diffuser to even out the light throughout the room. If you do use cans, make sure you get the correct trim and FLOOD lamps, not spots. Cans do not make use of the ceiling, and even with 8.5 foot ceilings, you are going to have very "spotty" light. You will no doubt find this annoying in a work area. If color rendering is important, specify Chroma-50 lamps for your fixtures.

 

[HIRISC]

Good tips/info. Thanks. I need to determine if I can mount a 12" wide troffer in between 16" on center joists. Either way, I'm going to use 2 rows of fluorescent fixtures and 1 or 2 rows of 5" flood cans with eyeball directional trim.

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

first: your numbers are way off
with the cans I would expect ~ AVERAGE of 70-80 fc (lumen/sq ft)
but will be very uneven lighting...

with the 2 tube flourescent ~65-70 fc

both are acceptable levels...

do some of each:
area lighting use the T8's
then use some cans for task/ambient lighting...

 

[HIRISC]

first: your numbers are way off
with the cans I would expect ~ AVERAGE of 70-80 fc (lumen/sq ft)
but will be very uneven lighting...

with the 2 tube flourescent ~65-70 fc

both are acceptable levels...

do some of each:
area lighting use the T8's
then use some cans for task/ambient lighting...

Help me out - which numbers are 'way off'?

Took the lumen rating from the manufacturer of the respective bulbs and I think my math is correct.

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

Help me out - which numbers are 'way off'?

Took the lumen rating from the manufacturer of the respective bulbs and I think my math is correct.

that assumes all light gets radiated to the surface
that all surfaces have perfect reflectivity
all fixtures are 100% efficient
clean lamps, fixtures and no degradation due to aging

the reason the cans > flourescent?
all the can light is in a downward cone, where as the flourescent radiates 360 deg...
think of placing a 1' x 1' square peice of paper 5 foot directly below each lamp type...
which will be more illimunated?

generally 1.1 W/sq ft yeilds ~40 fc (1 fc = 1 lumen/sq ft)

you need to calaculate the actual delivered levels using programs that are readliy available...the raw lumens/sq ft is essentially useless...

I use a program called Visual Acuity Professional

 

[ddawg16]

Most cfl's put out between 60-70 lum's per watt....hence, the typical 23W build (equiv to a 100w incandescent) would put out at least 1300W. A 32W T8 is putting out about around 2000 lum +/- depending on the manf. So, by my estimate, it takes about 3-4 cans (depending on the bulbs you select) to equal a typical 4' T8 with 2 bulbs.

I put in 24 6" cans in my 20x25 garage. Right now I only have 23w CFL's installed....but I plan to go to a higher wattage on a few of them once I get everything else done.

One of the things I like about CFL's is the flexibility in wattage and color....and it's real easy to change.....

This is what the back of the garage looks like.....the picture is taken with no flash and the right side is using warm white (2700K) bulbs....I think the 4000-5000K range is better.

 

[HIRISC]

that assumes all light gets radiated to the surface
that all surfaces have perfect reflectivity
all fixtures are 100% efficient
clean lamps, fixtures and no degradation due to aging

the reason the cans > flourescent?
all the can light is in a downward cone, where as the flourescent radiates 360 deg...
think of placing a 1' x 1' square peice of paper 5 foot directly below each lamp type...
which will be more illimunated?

generally 1.1 W/sq ft yeilds ~40 fc (1 fc = 1 lumen/sq ft)

you need to calaculate the actual delivered levels using programs that are readliy available...the raw lumens/sq ft is essentially useless...

I use a program called Visual Acuity Professional

Thanks - I wasn't trying to articulate lumens beyond the rating at the light, but I understand that the net result is what matters.

For the manner that I plan to use the space, I would be concerned about shadowing due to that downward lumination of cans - even with floods.

Do you feel you can replicate the spatial lighting of fluorescent with cans?

 

[HIRISC]

Most cfl's put out between 60-70 lum's per watt....hence, the typical 23W build (equiv to a 100w incandescent) would put out at least 1300W. A 32W T8 is putting out about around 2000 lum +/- depending on the manf. So, by my estimate, it takes about 3-4 cans (depending on the bulbs you select) to equal a typical 4' T8 with 2 bulbs.

I put in 24 6" cans in my 20x25 garage. Right now I only have 23w CFL's installed....but I plan to go to a higher wattage on a few of them once I get everything else done.

One of the things I like about CFL's is the flexibility in wattage and color....and it's real easy to change.....

This is what the back of the garage looks like.....the picture is taken with no flash and the right side is using warm white (2700K) bulbs....I think the 4000-5000K range is better.

That looks pretty good. What's your spacing light to light?

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

Thanks - I wasn't trying to articulate lumens beyond the rating at the light, but I understand that the net result is what matters.

For the manner that I plan to use the space, I would be concerned about shadowing due to that downward lumination of cans - even with floods.

Do you feel you can replicate the spatial lighting of fluorescent with cans?

I would use a high quality wrap around fixture like in post 4, you can get them with wood end plates...and use the cans for accent/task specific areas

cans aren't good, imho, for area lighting in shop...in a home yes, in a shop, no...
if you use cans, you will need more of them to avoid uneven illumination...you can split the circuits onto a couple of switches, use dimmers, and you can also get a better color, and easier on the eye, light spectrum...

 

[HIRISC]

I would use a high quality wrap around fixture like in post 4, you can get them with wood end plates...and use the cans for accent/task specific areas

cans aren't good, imho, for area lighting in shop...in a home yes, in a shop, no...
if you use cans, you will need more of them to avoid uneven illumination...you can split the circuits onto a couple of switches, use dimmers, and you can also get a better color, and easier on the eye, light spectrum...

Definitely good advice, thanks.

I went back out tonight and did some test fitting with 12" wide toffer recessed fluorescent fixtures.

I'm really trying to keep everything recessed - due to height mostly and hope that 19 2-bulb fluorescent fixtures down the center will provide enough of the 'task' lighting and the two outside runs of 5" cans will provide accent and pinpoint lighting over my workbenches (right wall). Some of the spacing is a little funky due to the plumbing and sprinkler lines under the mezzanine.

Here's what it looks like (at least for the next 20 minutes)

 

[Big N8]

I would rather have cans over a work bench that I use a lot. I think they are much easier on the eyes. But for the large space florescent are the best (plus they make detailing much less of a hassle)

 

[sammerdog]

HIRISC - great plans for your space!

Just a word of caution - if your shop is heated, no problem. If your shop is unheated - stay away from fluorescents. They'll flicker, shimmy, and shake up here in the north.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - buy "low temp" ballasts the guys down south will scream. BS - they'll still throw off crapola light when cold.

Again, if you're heated, it's a non-issue.

 

[HIRISC]

I agree about cans vs FL for eye strain/general duty working.

Yes, thanks - good tips on the cold use of Fluorescents. The garage has in-floor heat and will be kept at 55 degrees+ all winter (if I can afford the bills)

 

[HIRISC]

Decided to pre-frame in preparation for the troffer recessed fluorescent fixtures. Light structure measures 11" x 48" with 1/2" extra on each side for coverage.

The joists are 14.25-14.5" wide, so we framed in with 2x2 (1.5") stock on each side - basically making a 11.25 x 48.25" square for the sheetrock guys to zip saw against.

Took about 1.5 hours to do the 19 frames. Better to have the light's 'arms' resting on 2x stock than 5/8 sheetrock.

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

that should turn out very nicley...no 1/2 assin' it

 

[HIRISC]

Thanks. Yeah, the difference between my early plan of 21 cans vs this setup is about $1500. Not nothing, but not enough to deter me from doing it. There will be no question about having enough light under that mezzanine.

(now I see why some guys choose not to build a mezzanine at all. Between the platform itself, the flooring above, the lighting under, etc., it's getting pretty expensive.)

Oh well, go big or go home

 

[NUTTSGT]

I don't think you'll have a lighting problem.

 

[ProGun3400]

Hi all, My wife and I are building out a garage condo

Don't have any suggestions as far as the lighting goes but thought it was super cool that your wife is involved in this project with you!

 

[HIRISC]

Don't have any suggestions as far as the lighting goes but thought it was super cool that your wife is involved in this project with you!

Thanks.. it wouldn't be possible without her support. She knows I'm a car guy and by building a mezzanine with space for her to do her hobbies and/or catch up on TV, we can hang out together.

 

[HIRISC]

Sheetrock up - easier to see the lighting layout now.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You gonna need to wear sunglasses in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charles

 

[HIRISC]

My thinking was I can always dial it back.

Floor is basically MMA coated concrete color (natural) and the cabinets are going to be black so I anticipated losing some brightness.

I also put the cans on 2 sets of dimmers and ran the troffer fluorescent fixtures on two switches (ever other light 'set') so I could have half the light if I wanted.

Should be interesting to see how it works practically.

 

[HIRISC]

Done.

Perfect amount/combo of lights. Cans for 'lite' light/mood and troffers for 'work' light.

Thanks for the help all.

 

[irisservice]

What bulbs did you put in cans?
Look like standard cheapy bulbs?