Can't understand the Festool Kool-Aid

[marvinlee]

Plus if its of such high quality why does milwaukee give you a 5 year warranty and festool gives only a 3 yr? If you're making such high end equipment why not stand behind it more than someone or at least on someone that makes their tools in china.

Yea I went over to the festool owners group and read some threads, but it's like kind of going into a cult, hard to find anyone that doesn't agree or believe they're not the best and most correct.

The length of warranty responds to multiple factors, of which tool quality is only one. That said, I've read online that some Festool tools have had quality problems. I don't know if this remains the case on their most current line of tools. The Festool sliding arm saw I tried was notable for the frictionless feel of the sliding arm. It was even smoother than the superb
Makita that I used for many years.

 

[dnschmidt]

If you think the Festool people are drinking the Kool-Aid try the Felder Owners Group. It's about 95% snob appeal and 5% true superiority in either case. Their stuff is good but under no circumstances worth the premium they charge for it. The one thing they are great at is dust collection, that I will admit. Myself, I'm never buying a saw or a router that doesn't take standard blades or 1/2" bits and Festool doesn't.

 

[kctyphoon]

i dont have a dog in this fight, because i don't own one Festool product. However, what needs to be considered is that people that buy festool are investing in a system, and not single products. also - Festool excels at portability, which is a huge advantage for home improvement contractors that must create a mobile workshop at different sites for almost every job they do.. Festool is also the "snap on" of the woodworking world. even though their products may not spec out as high as some others - many work WITH other tools in a way other products cant. Also - Festool can replace the need for big machines and do the same job using innovation where you bring the tools to one station and not the material to 4 different machines in the shop.. if i were a contractor working out of a truck - there would be no question in my mind i would make an initial investment into Festool products to make my time more efficient and also improve the image of the company when working on site..

heres a situation to consider:

and another possibility -

 

[Addrock]

What I have never liked about Festool is the lack of market awareness of standardization. They sell to the US market yet will not design to standards so they can enjoy 150% or more prices, think a Festool blade is 1% better than a Freud, nope! Same for sand paper, want to see selection, variety and quality check what standardization has to offer Klingspor.

http://www.klingspor.com/

I can't imagine the uproar if Snap-on switched drive sizes to 7mm rather than 1/4, 10mm rather than 3/8, and 13 mm rather than 1/2".

Standards matter, that is why there is a book called Machinery's Handbook.

In closing buy quality, but IMO don't join a tool cult ponzi scheme, or pyrimid scheme.

 

[Showkey]

Norm and Tom sure like them............









(Abrams and Silva for the guys that do not watch pbs)

 

[LeeG]

If you are a hobbyist or even a professional whom always works from a shop, then Festool (outside of a few, unique tools), might not be the thing for you.

I am a serious woodworking hobbyist, and never felt the need for any of their tools. A few years ago, I started doing quite a lot of volunteer work - basic handyman stuff - with my church and a local non-profit. It quickly became apparent to me that what worked quite well when I was at home, didn't translate well to doing work offsite. I decided to start organizing my tools into kit based setups, so I could just grab the kits I needed and be off and know I had everything necessary with me. I looked at modular toolkits by Sortimo (Bosch L-Boxx), Dewalt (Toughbox), and Tanos (Systainer). I decided on the Systainer (although I do use the Dewalt for my in-truck boxes due to them being waterproof).

About two years ago, I needed a new router, and my local tool store talked me into a Festool 1400. It was the best router I had ever used. It was about six months later before I picked up more Festool - Track Saw, Domino, and Sander. The dust control on all of them were amazing. I have since added several additional Festools, and added several systainers for other tools I use.

It is really nice to be able to grab what I need to do a job, and know I am not missing something. It has required me to rearrange my shop for when I am working there, but it has been worth it to me. I spend far less time running back and forth between home and wherever I am working, and more time actually getting things done for people.

 

[neophyte]

What I have never liked about Festool is the lack of market awareness of standardization. They sell to the US market yet will not design to standards so they can enjoy 150% or more prices, think a Festool blade is 1% better than a Freud, nope! Same for sand paper, want to see selection, variety and quality check what standardization has to offer Klingspor.

http://www.klingspor.com/

I can't imagine the uproar if Snap-on switched drive sizes to 7mm rather than 1/4, 10mm rather than 3/8, and 13 mm rather than 1/2".

Standards matter, that is why there is a book called Machinery's Handbook.

In closing buy quality, but IMO don't join a tool cult ponzi scheme, or pyrimid scheme.

Festool blades are actually made to standard sizes, it's just the sizes are ones that are used in Europe instead of North America. Festool could have modified some of their designs to use standard blade sizes found in North America, but it might have caused more problems for them than you might realize.

With the Festool Track saws, the blades for the individual models are all manufactured to not just the same diameter, but also with the same tooth width to plate thickness proportions, so that the splinter guard on the tracks doesn't become useless after switching blades. The blades are also manufactured to a better quality level, with thicker carbide than is typically found on the average Freud circular saw blades from Home Depot. My understanding is the blades are made for Festool by Leitz. There are other manufacturers that make blades with the same dimensions as the Festool blades although you may not be able to go to your average hardware store to purchase them.

The Festool jigsaws take standard T-shank blades. Festool makes an extra thick series of blades to optimize the ability to make accurate cuts in extra thick material, however you can also buy extra thick blades from Bosch, and at least two German manufacturers that will also give you the extra precision. The German blades may not be readily available in the US, but I've seen the Bosch blades at a local Lowes.

As for routers, 8mm is a standard shank size for router bits in Europe. Some smaller routers that were sold in the US before Festool tools were even available would likely have been able to use 8mm bits if the manufacturers had offered 8mm collets. Most Dewalt routers are manufactured in Europe and metric collets are/were available for the routers. I've seen 3/8" collets and 5/16" collets offered for some standard routers sold in the USA despite the shank design being relatively obscure for router bits.

Festool may use a proprietary hole design on their sandpaper, but there hardly the first to do so, and it's not that hard to modify other brands of paper to fit. When I bought my first random orbit sander I had to pay attention to whether the hook and loop paper was 6 hole or 8 hole. I believe Craftsman also sold some of their sanders with the hook and loop reversed so you could only buy Craftsman abrasives.

 

[acer66]

If you are a hobbyist or even a professional whom always works from a shop, then Festool (outside of a few, unique tools), might not be the thing for you.

I am a serious woodworking hobbyist, and never felt the need for any of their tools. A few years ago, I started doing quite a lot of volunteer work - basic handyman stuff - with my church and a local non-profit. It quickly became apparent to me that what worked quite well when I was at home, didn't translate well to doing work offsite. I decided to start organizing my tools into kit based setups, so I could just grab the kits I needed and be off and know I had everything necessary with me. I looked at modular toolkits by Sortimo (Bosch L-Boxx), Dewalt (Toughbox), and Tanos (Systainer). I decided on the Systainer (although I do use the Dewalt for my in-truck boxes due to them being waterproof).

About two years ago, I needed a new router, and my local tool store talked me into a Festool 1400. It was the best router I had ever used. It was about six months later before I picked up more Festool - Track Saw, Domino, and Sander. The dust control on all of them were amazing. I have since added several additional Festools, and added several systainers for other tools I use.

It is really nice to be able to grab what I need to do a job, and know I am not missing something. It has required me to rearrange my shop for when I am working there, but it has been worth it to me. I spend far less time running back and forth between home and wherever I am working, and more time actually getting things done for people.

That is some serious investment right there.

 

[kythri]

and also improve the image of the company when working on site..

Good grief, seriously?

Statements like this are why phrases like "Kool-Aid" are (understandably) used.

I have yet to see any GC using Festool (and I've been working with a LOT of them over the past decade). If any of them have an image issue, it's not related to their lack of Festool, because, outside of the curiosity of an enthusiast, nobody rational cares what tools are being used on a job.

Kinda like the tools auto mechanics use.

 

[Addrock]

My point was pretty obvious, maybe not obvious enough. Most of North America is not within 100 miles of a purchasable European standard overpriced blade or piece of sandpaper. Ford motor company sells in Europe, but they don't force Brits to by left hand drive and call it American standard. I understand why companies do this... profit. But look at market share Festool will only be a blip.

 

[bcradio]

Some people in this thread are so clueless about Festool it isn't even funny.

And no, Festool is not the 'Snap-On' of woodworking tools. Festool is designed to work as a system... Snap-On isn't.

 

[kythri]

Festool is designed to work as a system...

Can someone explain this without sounding like marketing hype?

"The tools are designed to work together" sounds like nonsense.

 

[Trey T]

I do not own any Festool but I believe the tools below are worth it.

Kapex Miter Saw
Domino Joint
Dust Extractor
Multi Function Table

As far as Festool are designed as a "system" or "ecosystem", I think every tool brand out there are like that as part of their marketing strategy; i.e. cordless tools have their own unique battery. The primary thing that align their "system" is their Dust Extractor which is used throughout their wood cutting tool line. However, as any tools are invented, they're replaceable with one or another and can be used independently.

In terms of marketing, not just the pricings, Festool is considered the "Snap-On" of wood working tools. There's a special pride in owning these tools.

 

[neophyte]

Can someone explain this without sounding like marketing hype?

"The tools are designed to work together" sounds like nonsense.

Almost all Festool tools come in systainers cases. The systainer cases may have different heights, but the width and depth is the same for the cases that come with the tools. This makes stacking the cases much simpler for storage or transport. The cases also lock together so that you can move several cases together as if the cases were a single piece. This makes moving the cases far easier. A large stack can be moved on a hand track, a small stack can simply be carried. If you're working in a security controlled environment requiring going thru a bunch of locked doors, the ability to transport the cases as a single unit saves a lot of time and extra trips.

The heart of the Festool "system" is the plunge saws. These saws use aluminum tracks that allow the user to get cuts as straight as a factory edge on plywood and other sheet goods. Other tools from Festool, such as the routers and jigsaws, have attachments that enable the tools to be used with the same aluminum tracks, enabling the user to easily cut a straight line in materials were a jigsaw would be better, or rout a dead straight groove. This saves the hassle of making and transporting individual custom straight edges for each tool. The tracks also come in a number of lengths for ease of transport or longer straight cuts, and the tracks can be attached together to for a longer track.

Festool manufactures a couple multifunction tables/work benches called the MFT. These are currently available in two different sizes. The depth and height of the MFT table is the same, and festool makes connectors allowing the table to be locked together creating a larger table. The tables are also designed so that you can attach the aluminum saw tracks to use the tables as a large mitre box for the track saws. This saves having to make and transport custom mitre boxes for your circular saws. The MFT tables can also easily be outfitted with stops for easy repeat cuts to the same dimensions. Since the tracks can also be used for the routers this also allows the table to be used as mitre boxes for router cuts.

The clamps that can be used to securely clamp the aluminum tracks to materials, are also designed to be fully used with the MFT tables. This allows the table to be easily used as readily portable work benches. Materials can be clamped against the surface of the MFT similar to the way a bench vise would clamp material, allowing for hand cutting or planing. The MFT has a series of holes drilled thru the surface allowing materials to be easily clamped on top for gluing or sanding , etc.

The Festool CMS "router table" uses the same depth and height as the MFT tables, allowing the CMS to be attached to the MFT for a large work surface for routing, or if the router fence is moved allowing a larger surface for assembly work.

The CMS is actually a "compact modular system". The router table version sold in the USA comes with an insert that allows the attachment of the different Festool routers for use as a router table. In Europe there are other inserts made for different Festool tools. There are inserts for the Festool jigsaws, allowing the jigsaws to be used upside down as stationary saws for better work visibility. There are modules that allow the Festool plunge saws to be mounted so the CMS can be used as a table saw similar in size to a benchtop model. Festool also manufactures a belt sander and module so the CMS can be used as a small stationary edge sander. Unfortunately the extra modules aren't currently sold on the USA. This may have to do with UL approval since Festool insists on getting their tools UL listed. Some people have ordered the extra modules from Europe and made cord adapters. Festool may be planning to introduce more of the modules in future.

I'm sure I forgot to list some other aspects of the system.

 

[kctyphoon]

Good grief, seriously?

Statements like this are why phrases like "Kool-Aid" are (understandably) used.

I have yet to see any GC using Festool (and I've been working with a LOT of them over the past decade). If any of them have an image issue, it's not related to their lack of Festool, because, outside of the curiosity of an enthusiast, nobody rational cares what tools are being used on a job.

Kinda like the tools auto mechanics use.

maybe your not working with people that are on that level. maybe the people you work with dont have the money to lay out, or dont want to supply "people that are hard on tools" with premium equipment. maybe they are not in the type of field that can really benefit from those tools.. also, most people that will buy Festool, buy it for themselves if they own a small custom woodworking compnay or renovation business, and not to supply a crew.. i know someone who does custom kitchens for a living. the only thing he does is build the "boxes" for the cabinets at his shop, everything else that "looks nice" like cabinet doors and drawer faces, are ordered out of a catalog. this is probably the people you are use to.

however a festool system can allow someone to truely build a "complete" custom kitchen on site - or a wall of custom built in bookcases (for a large enpensive home) without the need for a table saw, panel saw, or jointer - and still achieve the same precesion as if he had used those big machines. were talking a "furniture grade" level of work here, and not some guy that just does trim molding.. imagine how much easier it would be to be able to custom build anything, on site, and not transport a finshed product back and forth to a shop if you need to make slight changes. imagine NOT needing to build something at a shop, in a way because it NEEDS to be able to come back apart, and then transposrted, who knows how far, and then re-assembled.. imagine the time saved to only have to build a custom fireplace mantle ONE TIME - where it will live forever, and not load and unload it onto a truck and carry it up 2 flights of stairs. .. also - it offers the ability for someone who wants to work out of a shop the ability to NEED far less space. most times just a one car garage can be enough room for a small shop..

i have almost every type of bigger woodworking machine in my basement, and its a struggle to do anything - having to move a table saw out of the way to make room for the jointer or radial arm saw.. festool CAN eliminate that for some people - for a price of course..

 

[slodat]

I see the fanboys and it puzzles me. The collectors. I enjoy using my tools. All of them. I have a lot of Festools. The opinion of others does not influence my decision to buy them.

 

[jd_1138]

Festools are great. Tom Silva, of This Old House, uses them. But someone needs to tell him to get a Makita or Milwaukee for his impact driver, as Festool's version has about half the torque.

 

[Cato]

They are better made - I suppose. However, they are expensive, clunky and ugly.

 

[kctyphoon]

Festools are great. Tom Silva, of This Old House, uses them. But someone needs to tell him to get a Makita or Milwaukee for his impact driver, as Festool's version has about half the torque.

to be fair - im sure Festool supplies them to the show for free.

 

[kythri]

I'm sure I forgot to list some other aspects of the system.

Thank you - your explanation was most informative.

 

[kythri]

maybe your not working with people that are on that level. maybe the people you work with dont have the money to lay out, or dont want to supply "people that are hard on tools" with premium equipment. maybe they are not in the type of field that can really benefit from those tools

I work with (and have worked with) both smaller residential-type and larger commercial/corporate type GCs (and everything in between). I'm involved with 3 commercial GCs right now on 5 different projects. It is, quite assuredly, none of the things you name.

I'm not going to argue about the tools. neophyte provided a pretty darned decent explanation that didn't consist of marketing hype or slogans, so we're good there.

My issue with your comment was the whole nonsense about the tools improving the "image" of the company, and now the "working with people on that level" - this kind of hubris is just a joke.

Tool brands do not improve the image of a worker or business in the eyes of anyone rational. The use of one tool brand over another is not indicative of the quality of work one can or does put out.

Believing otherwise (and stating such) is the the best example of "drinking the Kool-Aid" one can come up with.

If you like the brand, awesome. But stop ascribing mythical properties to it that don't exist.

 

[rice rocket]

How'd I miss this thread?

I'll have more on this later, but I put about a toe into the Festool pond (about $2500 in Festool over the past year), I'm down to just one item left (RO 150 sander).

AFAIK, in Germany, the prices are in line with the rest of the premium brands (Metabo, Mafell, Fein, etc.), it's only here they charge 50%+ more because price fixing isn't illegal here. Some things, like the Kapex UG cart, are literally double the price here as it is in Germany.


One side benefit of the price fixing scheme (along w/ all the kool-aid drinkers) is that I sold all my tools at <10% loss, despite having them for a year.

 

[rice rocket]

What I have never liked about Festool is the lack of market awareness of standardization. They sell to the US market yet will not design to standards so they can enjoy 150% or more prices, think a Festool blade is 1% better than a Freud, nope! Same for sand paper, want to see selection, variety and quality check what standardization has to offer Klingspor.

http://www.klingspor.com/

I can't imagine the uproar if Snap-on switched drive sizes to 7mm rather than 1/4, 10mm rather than 3/8, and 13 mm rather than 1/2".

Standards matter, that is why there is a book called Machinery's Handbook.

In closing buy quality, but IMO don't join a tool cult ponzi scheme, or pyrimid scheme.

Yep, Metabo abrasives are made (in the USA) by Klingspor, they are top notch.

What Festool has built here in the US is a large marketing backing for a set of products developed 10 years ago, and continue to ride on those coattails. I'm not sure if all their innovators in Germany left for greener pastures, or they don't want to sink any more money into R&D. Either way, they had some good ideas, but haven't improved on them in a decade. The market has caught up and surpassed them while they stood still.

 

[ez-duzit]

The Festool track saw is well worth its outrageous price.

 

[rice rocket]

The Festool track saw is well worth its outrageous price.

Except it's not.

It's not bad, don't get me wrong, but they have barely evolved since they came out, and the prices keep going up (somewhere around 5-10% annually). The TS 55 REQ update only really moved the dust outlet so you could get closer to a wall.

Makita and Mafell solved many issues they have just flat out ignored (saw tipover while beveling, crappy rail joining system that is both hard to align and gouges the aluminum rails, lack of quick scoring function to reduce chipout on melamine, etc.). Both the Makita and Mafell have 20% more power as well.

My TS 55 REQ was the last of my Festools to go, but there are better tools out there. If you want the best, get the Mafell. If you want very good (better than the Festool IMHO), get the Makita for $250 less.

 

[rice rocket]

Their sanders are okay, the Mirka Deros is a better detail sander than the ETS 150 EC will ever be (both lighter and better control w/ the paddle), even the new premium Bosch stuff is better with the decoupled housing from the motor, with equivalent dust collection, at half the price. I'm holding onto the RO 150 only because I like the edge guard for quickly blasting through stuff right up to an wall, Bosch's geared random orbit sander does not.

Their dust extractor is fine, but the companies that rebrand vacs from actual German vacuums manufacturers are better (Starmix mfgs the old Bosch, Kaercher mfgs the new Bosch, Nilfisk Alto mfgs the Makita). They all have available autoclean for drywall and concrete work without losing suction (which Festool still hasn't solved while everyone else has), and the price isn't nearly as high to get that function.

I've never owned their routers so I'm not particularly knowledgeable on them. I've read a few complaints on radial movement in the spindle on their OF1010 and OF1400, but haven't followed to see if they're isolated cases or not.

Their jigsaws were decent until they released the Carvex, which is easily the most hated tool on the Festool forums. The Trion is still okay, though Bosch and Metabo both make very good high end jigsaws as well, for less money.

Their drills are very mediocre, especially for the price. Underpowered, and they try to lock you into their Centrotec system, which means consumables are 5x the price you'd normally pay. The current top drills in the market from Fein and Metabo are near double the power, the same weight or lighter, and you don't get locked into a very narrow battery system.

Even their stuff only sold in Europe, like the CS 70 Precisio, is half baked, Mafell does the pull-saw concept much better, with way better accuracy. Pull up the Festool forums and you'll see complaints of people who have significant deflection in their saw, which Festool has replied as "within spec".

The only standout tool remaining that I'm considering is their Domino XL, but at $1375, it's not cheap. With the Mafell DD40P available as well at similar prices (that will do LR32 cabinets without the need for a $650 accessory kit), it's looking more versatile than the Domino.

 

[rice rocket]

Also, the whole "it's a system" rationalization is silly to me. I've used a mix of Metabo/Bosch/Festool/Makita for quite a while, and the only thing I've needed to buy was the right vacuum adapter. The Plug-Its are nice (until they burn your tool), but two velcro straps work well too. If you want, there are several people who have converted their tools to Neutrik Powercons, which are more reliable, IP67 rated, and grounded (so you can convert any tool you'd like, double isolated or not).

The only real "system" tool I can think of is the MFT/3 that has a built in rail for the track saw, but you can convert to a Mafell rail easily, or just use the Makita saw on the Festool rail (though you lose the anti-tipover function).

 

[rice rocket]

One more thing, the Systainers are decent, I still have a few that I've outfitted with custom foam liners.

They're lacking in one department, which is the lid and the base of the systainer just **** up against each other. This (a) seals out the elements poorly, and (b) makes the box really flimsy in torsion. Metabo, after years of selling their tools in Tanos (i.e. Festool) supplied systainers, decided to license a few of Tanos's patents and made a better box on their own. While largely the same, they added a channel in the lid that locks into the lip of the base, which makes the box much more robust, and solves both my complaints. I have a SYS3 and a SYS4 that are warped and won't shut properly, I think the lip would have solved that.

Metabo use an overcenter latch, that doesn't allow for mid-stack opening (which I avoid anyways), but I'm guessing Tanos wanted to hold onto that patent for themselves. The Metabo boxes are completely backwards compatible, they're just a pain in the *** to acquire but hopefully they'll start importing them here soon.

 

[RonRock]

Their dust extractor is fine, but the companies that rebrand vacs from actual German vacuums manufacturers are better (Starmix mfgs the old Bosch, Kaercher mfgs the new Bosch, Nilfisk Alto mfgs the Makita). They all have available autoclean for drywall and concrete work without losing suction (which Festool still hasn't solved while everyone else has), and the price isn't nearly as high to get that function.

I'm late to the party I know, but would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I'm considering a Festool vacuum for use with the Makita track saw I am waiting to arrive. I would like the drywall and concrete feature you mention.

 

[rice rocket]

Sure. The Festool vac that is cement/drywall capable is $800+, while the others are in the $500-700 range.

So there's two methods of clearing the filters of cement/drywall dust (which is necessary because you usually run the vacs bagless because they clog instantly due to the small dust particle size). Method 1 is pausing flow to the filter and physically shaking/banging the filters, method 2 is pausing and reversing the flow through the filter.

The Karcher (Bosch) and Festool vacs reverse flow in the filters, and since they only have one filter, the suction stops temporarily while the filter is being cleaned (the sander/grinder will not stop though). The Nilfisk (Makita) vac reverses flow as well, but since they have dual filters, they can divert the flow to the second filter while the other one is being cleaned.

The Starmix (Metabo/Flex/abunchaofdifferentbrand) has dual filters as well, but is of the shaking variety, and they divert flow to one filter while the other is being cleaned.

It's up to you to determine if this is an issue for you; the Starmix and Nilfisk autocleans will never pause suction due to the dual filter setup. The Karcher and Festool vacs will pause suction, which depending on what you're sanding, could mean a quick spray of dust (which is especially bad if you're doing hazardous material removal).

The Starmix and Nilfisk vacs provide the most amount of function with the least amount of downsides (unless you REALLY want to be able to stack Systainers/Sortimo boxes on it), and it helps that they're cheaper as well (at least versus the Festool). Nilfisk, Karcher, and Starmix have been making vacs for decades and they're all solid; Festool is the newest of all to the vac market (they used to rebrand Nilfisk vacs), but they use Domel motors (as does Starmix and maybe others).

 

[RonRock]

Very helpful info ricerocket.

Much appreciated.

 

[Monte]

here is a video about the starmix filter cleaning system:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BhFP6wOvXyY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>