Car Alignment

[JakeKohl]

I've got an '08 Audi TT and it was time for tires. It wore the inside of both front tires pretty badly (which, apparently is due largely to the sporty nature of the suspension/alignment settings). In getting ready to fork out a pretty nice chunk of change for 40 series 18" run flat tires, I figured it would be worth while to spend $80 on an alignment. So I got it aligned at one unrelated shop and bought tires at another shop the next day. The alignment didn't need a whole lot (total toe change of .5 degrees front, .68 degrees rear, cambers relatively unchanged at about -1.2 degrees all around). The tire store clerk recommended I go get it aligned again now that the new tires were installed.

Now, It's been a while since I ran an automotive center (25 years) but, seriously? Isn't that why the alignment tools clamp to the wheel and the car sits on bearing plates to take the tires out of the equation? It seems pretty far fetched that the tires should affect the alignment results unless something is REALLY wrong with the tires. I haven't seen an alignment lift in quite a while but I can't imagine that the effect of new vs. old tires will have any effect on it. What are your experiences?

 

[purplezr2]

Wouldn't you need an alignment everytime you rotated wheels then by that notion?

 

[mayday0017]

Alignment shouldn't of changed any..... On side note I encourage people to switch to non-runflat tires. Runflat tires are the devil, they are lacking in many areas, and cost more too....

 

[MeentSS02]

Um...no. Tire shops do what they can to upsell, and an alignment seems to be the biggest one they've been pushing around here lately. I've heard the same **** time and time again: "If you don't let us align it, you'll eat through those tires so fast it'll make your head spin."

I'm of the school of thought that a careless, low paid mechanic in a tire shop can do more harm than good if they don't know what they are doing with an alignment.

 

[rlitman]

Alignment shouldn't of changed any.....

Why do you say that? If the tires had inside wear, it could affect the camber. Changing camber changes toe. I'd have had the alignment done AFTER changing the tires.

 

[MeentSS02]

Why do you say that? If the tires had inside wear, it could affect the camber. Changing camber changes toe. I'd have had the alignment done AFTER changing the tires.

You have to ask a basic question in this case: how is camber adjusted?

It isn't the tires that adjust it...it is the suspension pick-up points. If those haven't been moved, then the camber adjustment remains the same regardless of the tire.

Camber/toe/caster can be adjusted two ways: by someone messing with the adjustable parts, or by hitting something (curb, pothole, etc.). Simply putting a new tire on an old rim, not so much.

 

[CNGsaves]

I'd have had the alignment done AFTER changing the tires.

^ ^ This. Critical error spending money getting alignment on old tires.

If you didn't purchase lifetime alignment, then see if alignment shop will let you "upgrade" to lifetime alignment for some more money and take it back to same shop. Otherwise, you just shell out another $80 and be done with it.

With those expensive tires, I'd absolutely have new alignment.

 

[JakeKohl]

Alignment shouldn't of changed any..... On side note I encourage people to switch to non-runflat tires. Runflat tires are the devil, they are lacking in many areas, and cost more too....

I would have switched because I could get a much better performing tire for less but I believe the run flats manage a couple of problems in my case...

1) the sidewall is really short (245/40) and I believe the thicker sidewall in the run flats provide an extra layer of protection against wheel damage from holes in these quickly declining South Carolina roads.

2) Although I have a well for a donut spare, if I took one of the regular wheels off my car (should I get a flat), I don't have anywhere to put it. It won't fit in the trunk and my choice would be to put the wheel and tire on my leather passenger seat (should nobody be with me) or possibly choose to either leave one of my precious forged alloy wheel or my passenger on the side of the road.

 

[JakeKohl]

^ ^ This. Critical error spending money getting alignment on old tires.

If you didn't purchase lifetime alignment, then see if alignment shop will let you "upgrade" to lifetime alignment for some more money and take it back to same shop. Otherwise, you just shell out another $80 and be done with it.

With those expensive tires, I'd absolutely have new alignment.

But an alignment machine doesn't attach to the tire...it attaches to the wheels and measures the angle / attitude of the wheels relative to each other. If a tire can change the relationship of the wheel to the chassis, you have a bigger problem (like really bad bearings, bushings, or tie rods, etc.).

I would be interested in a case where someone did get a difference in a before and after scenario - I just don't see how it's possible.

This shop that told me that only sells, mounts, and balances tires - they don't even do alignments (possibly setting themselves up to not warranty a tire I suppose?).

 

[rlitman]

You have to ask a basic question in this case: how is camber adjusted?

It isn't the tires that adjust it...it is the suspension pick-up points. If those haven't been moved, then the camber adjustment remains the same regardless of the tire.

Camber/toe/caster can be adjusted two ways: by someone messing with the adjustable parts, or by hitting something (curb, pothole, etc.). Simply putting a new tire on an old rim, not so much.

How is camber adjusted? Well, the alignment shop sees that the camber is off because the wheel is sitting at an angle on the ground. They adjust the camber into spec. Now camber is off when new tires are put on. I will admit that the difference will be pretty small though.

Imagine standing on shoes that are only worn out on the inside. Your ankles will be at a funny angle to keep you standing upright.

 

[APEowner]

Any modern alignment machine used by a halfway competent tech is going to be unaffected by tire wear. When I was a tech we regularly would do alignment before we changed the tires. It all depended on when the tire machine was available and when the alignment rack was free. If you have one tire that's wearing dramatically different than the other it might be important to do the alignment first but otherwise I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[MeentSS02]

How is camber adjusted? Well, the alignment shop sees that the camber is off because the wheel is sitting at an angle on the ground. They adjust the camber into spec. Now camber is off when new tires are put on. I will admit that the difference will be pretty small though.

Imagine standing on shoes that are only worn out on the inside. Your ankles will be at a funny angle to keep you standing upright.

And how do they see that the camber is off?

By attaching a sensor to the wheel, not the tire.

Now, if the owner was having the camber adjusted to compensate for wear, that's a different story. If the adjustments were never touched, then it should be the same.

 

[Milton Shaw]

The alignment mechanic should see the tires that came off and see the wear pattern on them. There is enough range of alignment settings that a car can be "within specs." and still be wearing tires. I was an alignment mechanic for about 20 years full time and read the tire wear to determine the alignment changes needed. I don't think that the current techs have that ability, they tend to believe what the machine tells them even when it's wrong. Alignment heads can be dropped and knocked out of adjustment, unless tech is knowledgeable a good many cars can be aligned wrong until machine is calibrated again. The newest laser alignment machines don't seem like they would be as sensitive to dropped heads as the older ones with all the measuring devices built in the head.

 

[JakeKohl]

How is camber adjusted? Well, the alignment shop sees that the camber is off because the wheel is sitting at an angle on the ground. They adjust the camber into spec. Now camber is off when new tires are put on. I will admit that the difference will be pretty small though.

Imagine standing on shoes that are only worn out on the inside. Your ankles will be at a funny angle to keep you standing upright.

If your wheel camber flexes based on the tire or the surface it's sitting on like your ankle does with a shoe, it would be constantly moving as you hit bumps and the wheel would would roll over when you take a turn. The handling would be dreadful. Camber does change as the suspension moves up and down related directly to the geometry of the control arms but it is a fixed relationship. It returns right back to the same point with the suspension comes back to the same position. Usually in a race configuration, the upper control arm radius of movement is shorter than the lower so the camber will increase if the suspension is compressed. This helps the tire remain flatter to the road as the body of the car rolls. If you couldn't depend on camber to be predictable, this would be a really hard thing to drive.

This debate is interesting...when I was in the automotive biz years ago, the new tire/old tire alignment thing was never a question - it never mattered.

I would be interested in hearing someone that has had a before and after experience (but I'm not about to invest in another $80 to settle it).

 

[pop pop]

I would not be concerned about when the alignment was done, but how well it was done and why so much negative camber. You're going to loose the inside of the tires.

 

[dirttracker18]

How is camber adjusted? Well, the alignment shop sees that the camber is off because the wheel is sitting at an angle on the ground. They adjust the camber into spec. Now camber is off when new tires are put on. I will admit that the difference will be pretty small though.

Imagine standing on shoes that are only worn out on the inside. Your ankles will be at a funny angle to keep you standing upright.

Inaccurate comparison.

Your ankles are controlled by your muscles etc and can move independent of your body.

Your suspension. Pick up points do not move.

For example if you had an alignment done with new tires then put on tires worn badly on the inside, the wheels could not simply lean in on the worn area unless something was loose. The camber will only change as the suspension is cycled or moved up or down.

You can lean your ankles standing in place, your wheels cannot. Try going out and forcing your wheels to lean or change camber by hand. Heck grab a huge pry bar and try.

 

[pmiranda]

It could be that the "normal" stock alignment does cause excess wear on the inside edge. Sometimes the car maker specs toe-out on the front so the turn-in will feel sharper. Zero it out for minimum wear. Ditto with toe-in on the rear.

 

[Daves69]

Find a shop that has the Hunter quick check alignment check. Clamp the sensors to the wheels and roll the car fwd and back gives camber and toe measurements. A quick way to sell an alignment. Tell them you got new tires and need to see if it needs an alignment.

 

[devoncoolman]

your negative camber is normal its for improved handling characteristics. I do alighnments all the time on top of the line hunter alighnment machine. Most inside tire wear is usually do to extreme toe-in issues or bent steering components. If you understood how the new camera style alighnment machines work you wouldn't question it. the machine uses rolling compensation and castor swing and completely eliminates tire wear and even the tire itself out of the equation. You can even force the machine to do a jacking compensation which you jack the whole car up and spin each wheel individually and that completely takes the tire out of the equation.

Don't sweat getting ur alighnment before you did ur tires. I and We at work do it all the time. Most shops do expescially if you have to wait a couple hrs for tires to show up.

 

[DiscoBerry]

At the shop i work at we always align a vehicle after tires but it really dont matter imo

 

[justanengineer]

I've got an '08 Audi TT and it was time for tires. It wore the inside of both front tires pretty badly (which, apparently is due largely to the sporty nature of the suspension/alignment settings). In getting ready to fork out a pretty nice chunk of change for 40 series 18" run flat tires, I figured it would be worth while to spend $80 on an alignment. So I got it aligned at one unrelated shop and bought tires at another shop the next day. The alignment didn't need a whole lot (total toe change of .5 degrees front, .68 degrees rear, cambers relatively unchanged at about -1.2 degrees all around). The tire store clerk recommended I go get it aligned again now that the new tires were installed.

Sounds to me like the tire store clerk saw reason to suspect a crappy alignment or other issue, and judging by the fact that the car was wearing the tires pretty badly but it "didnt need a whole lot" sounds to me like he was onto something. Ive run a lot of 255+ tires on toys and so long as there wasnt a major issue Ive never had noticeable wear, and I usually set camber out enough to be painful on the wrists. SWMBO cant drive my current Firebird bc of it.

Personally, Id find a second opinion on the alignment.

 

[Wideopentuning]

Those are pretty massive toe changes that were made. The excessive toe in or out was likely the cause of your wear. Audi calls for excessive toe in as is. Cut the toe they recommend down by a third and watch tire life, steering response and handling improve.

 

[Boomer343]

When teaching my automotives class on our Hunter aligner we would bring in a vehicle that was to get it's tires replaced and set up the car to check it's alignment and compare the specs to the tire wear.

We would then pull off the Sensor heads, swap out the tires and set up the aligner again. Quite convincing that the tires had very little to do with the alignment. We would also do ride height measurements to compare before and after and that of course changed with the new tires.

So to answer your question if anyone has done this experiment I have several times over a 9 year period on the same machine, calibrated and updated twice a year and the results have always been the same.

 

[shampoop]

I agree with the upsell notion. Getting an alignment with every new set of tires is kind of a standard thing, the kind of thing my father does religiously.

I've also NEVER seen a german performance car without inside camber wear once the tires are worn down. As in when working at a tire shop EVERY single 3 series had inside camber wear when it was time to change the factory tires. Also the affect of camber wear is MANY TIMES more noticeable on cars with low profile tires, there isn't enough sidewall to compensate for the negative camber.

It's just something that comes with the territory. Don't like it? Go buy a camry. It's just the price you pay for performance.

 

[skulldrinker]

wow, I can't believe how many people said old tires don't matter.

 

[mrborohachi]

luckily i have friends at tire shops and they flip my tires to the opposite sides for free. As previously stated by Shampoop all german cars are setup in a more "performance" stance with greater negative camber. And he's also correct that Japanese cars have wussie factory camber settings. Every Toyota i've owned i've had to put adj, camber plates/upper strut mounts to gain negative camber

Due to your previous tire wear issues tell the Tech to lessen the front negative camber there by making the inner tire wear less. That can also be done to the rears if your seeing a pronounced inner tire wear. Your not on a track needing the more "aggressive" stock negative camber setting

 

[dirttracker18]

wow, I can't believe how many people said old tires don't matter.

That's because those of us that have actually done alignments know that it does not make a difference. In fact in cannot and is not physically possible.

Geometry of suspension and steering affects tire wear. Tire wear cannot affect the geometry.

 

[MG44]

An alignment on very bad tires will make a difference, at least on my John Beam that is less then 3 years old.

Any reason why you didn't get the alignment done at the place you bought the tires? Just curious because it drives me nuts to watch people drive all around town whoring out work.

I am across from a Used Tire shop that charges $17.99 to Mount & Balance wheels w/ TPMS. I charge $15. Not because I am trying to undercut the guy, but because I have a paid for machine. The Used tire shop has some very nice Hunter tire machines; much nicer then my two older much older machines, but not paid off. I routinely get guys bringing me used Cash & Carry tires to mount & balance from the guy across the street. It is crazy the effort people will go through to save a few bucks on things like auto repair, but they will go out and spend $25 on a case of beer, $50 on lottery tickets, and $14.99 for a dirty movie at the Hotel.

 

[purplezr2]

Those are pretty massive toe changes that were made. The excessive toe in or out was likely the cause of your wear. Audi calls for excessive toe in as is. Cut the toe they recommend down by a third and watch tire life, steering response and handling improve.

I agree with the upsell notion. Getting an alignment with every new set of tires is kind of a standard thing, the kind of thing my father does religiously.

I've also NEVER seen a german performance car without inside camber wear once the tires are worn down. As in when working at a tire shop EVERY single 3 series had inside camber wear when it was time to change the factory tires. Also the affect of camber wear is MANY TIMES more noticeable on cars with low profile tires, there isn't enough sidewall to compensate for the negative camber.

It's just something that comes with the territory. Don't like it? Go buy a camry. It's just the price you pay for performance.

wow, I can't believe how many people said old tires don't matter.

Never had an issue with any of my german cars eating through tires due to alignment.

 

[d3ad1ysp0rk]

wow, I can't believe how many people said old tires don't matter.

And I can't believe how many people are telling him he needs to get another alignment.

The alignment of the car has absolutely nothing to do with the tires when you are referring to "getting an alignment".

 

[JakeKohl]

...
Any reason why you didn't get the alignment done at the place you bought the tires? Just curious because it drives me nuts to watch people drive all around town whoring out work....

The place I've been taking my tire business to for the last couple of years doesn't do alignments (which I know is really strange and almost made me go elsewhere for these tires). Otherwise, their service has been outstanding.

 

[Cryptic1911]

The camber should be fine, 1.2deg isn't real high. Toe being off is what cause your tires to wear most likely, and that's what most alignment places pinpoint. Most of them do a toe-n-go alignment and send you on your way. It may not be optimal, but I'd say that is the majority of people's alignment issues

 

[kert]

Ok maybe I could buy the tires matter argument if your suspension parts are worn and loose, but if that is the case, I don't think an alignment is going to matter much anyway. Though I'm not even totally convinced of that.

 

[pop pop]

Only way old tires affect an alignment is if they are sufficiently different in size to affect ride height. If the ride height doesn't change (side to side/ front to back) then no way will tires affect alginment. Ride quality, that's another question.

 

[IndyGarage]

In the old-time mechanical alignment setups it could make a difference.

With the computer based equipment they've had for 20 years or so, it makes no difference, because the computer is measuring the wheels in relation to one another vs. in relation to a fixed reference.

Interesting the OP's toe was off by .5 front and .68 rear degrees. Usually the tolerance on toe is significantly less than that - that kind of error is going to eat tires right up, cause bad gas mileage and probably make the car handle badly - either pull one way or the other or crab down the road.

And requiring an additional 1.2 negative camber "all around" seems unusual too.


I'd be wanting to know how it got that far off.

Is it possible that the alignment machine was not calibrated correctly?

 

[serviceguy]

Explain it to these guys that alignment is done on the wheel (it is)...Cambertire.com

most of the alignment depends on the suspension geometry, but it also affected by the geometry of the point of contact with the ground since we're not driving overcrafts. Also, not all 4 tires wear necessarily the same way. Besides all that, I think it would be just common sense to have the alignment done after installing the new set of tires (especially if their specs are different from the stock ones). At the same time I would be interested in learning if there's specific reason for doing it before.

 

[pop pop]

Besides all that, I think it would be just common sense to have the alignment done after installing the new set of tires.

Explain this "common sense" cause I don't get it.

The tire you reference is a gimmick. The tread appears to be angled to give a "0" camber to a cambered alignment. The tire doesn't change the vehicle alignment. You'd have the same thing with the OP's worn tires that he took off.

 

[shampoop]

Never had an issue with any of my german cars eating through tires due to alignment.

I never said amything about eating through tires. I said that at the end of their life they have noticeable negative camber wear. Toe is what eats tires.

 

[JakeKohl]

In the old-time mechanical alignment setups it could make a difference.

With the computer based equipment they've had for 20 years or so, it makes no difference, because the computer is measuring the wheels in relation to one another vs. in relation to a fixed reference.

Interesting the OP's toe was off by .5 front and .68 rear degrees. Usually the tolerance on toe is significantly less than that - that kind of error is going to eat tires right up, cause bad gas mileage and probably make the car handle badly - either pull one way or the other or crab down the road.

And requiring an additional 1.2 negative camber "all around" seems unusual too.


I'd be wanting to know how it got that far off.

Is it possible that the alignment machine was not calibrated correctly?

My measurement descriptions were probably misleading. I'll find that sheet tonight and repost with more detail...I would be interested to know how much you guys think that was off.