Car rad for shop heating?

[adamm]

I am installing an oil boiler to heat my shop. I picked up a used boiler with all the controls, and most of the components to install the system. The main thing missing for a complete system is a radiator.

Has anyone used the rad from a car to heat their shop? The operating conditions should are about the same in a car as a hydronic system. The rads run over 212°F and have a system pressure of 15 psi in cars. In the hydronic system I understand that the water should only be set to 180°F and it will have the same 15 psi system pressure.

I have searched this forum and did some google searching, but I haven't found anyone who has done this sucessfully.

Thanks,

Adam

 

[tatra]

heard of a guy that had a small autowrecking biz and used a chevette rad plumbed into his shop and ran the engine on old gas at idle............about a 2 car size and took the chill off..........never saw it myself so sure, why not?............

 

[BioHazard]

Yeah, that should work just fine. Car radiators are designed to disappate many many thousands of BTUs...

 

[swvega]

I know of a guy that put a rad. from a mack truck with a fan behind it to heat his shop with outside wood boiler. Thing would cook you right out of the shop.

 

[Mickey O]

Sounds good, post picture when done.

 

[Falcon67]

Either that or one of those big AC condensers from a pickup - they are thin aluminum units with a large area. If you need more compact, Summit and Jegs sell two core aluminum radiators for under $200 in various sizes.

 

[Yardgoat]

How would this work? Engine outside and rad inside? with a fan blowing through the rad ? .................YG

 

[bazzateer]

If he's got a boiler then that will create the hot water and he just needs to pump it through the rad. Then maybe put an electric fan on it to distribute the hot air.

 

[BioHazard]

Might not even need the fan, depending on how much heat you want.

 

[adamm]

If he's got a boiler then that will create the hot water and he just needs to pump it through the rad. Then maybe put an electric fan on it to distribute the hot air.

This what I was planning. The hot water comes from the boiler. The plan is to have a fairly conventional residential hydronic heating systems with zone control, thermostat, circulating pumps etc. The difference would be instead of using a purpose built rad that I would need to buy, cheap out and use one of the surplus car rads that I have around combined with an electric fan.

Thanks everyone for the input. I will go ahead and try it unless I stumble upon a proper rad for very little money before I get to that part of the install.

Adam

 

[mikefromme]

It sound like you already know that there are purpose built solutions.

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/atop/fanconvectorsIndex.asp

I have found some good deals on CL on used modine hydronic convectors. And that is what I use in my garage.

I've thought of using a radiator/fan in my camper and using the electric hot water heater as the heat source -- about as close as one could get to free heat! -- when at a campground. Never got around to it though.

 

[ddrewyor]

My neighbor has an outdoor wood boiler and his garage has a truck radiator with two fans behind it pumping out the heat. He has minimal insulation and the unit keeps the place toasty, but runs quite a bit. Don't know how much wood he burns, but he also heats his house the same way. The heat exchanger is in his main plenum and the old furnace blower pushes the air.

Our first house had "convectors" for heating from a boiler. They looked just like old heater cores with a fan behind them. Great heat, and I could control the heat separately in each room. I am sure you could use a radiator or heater core depending on the amount of BTUs you need. Keep us posted.

Dave
________
Digital vaporizer

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

How would this work? Engine outside and rad inside? with a fan blowing through the rad ? .................YG

NEVER "blow thru" a radiator.
nothing will happen, draw thru it, just like it does in your car,
i wont go into thermodynamics or tubulance here, just trust me.

 

[Friartuck]

Consider using two radiators, one in each back corner

 

[ddrewyor]

NEVER "blow thru" a radiator.
nothing will happen, draw thru it, just like it does in your car

Why does it work in a car when the electric cooling fans are not on as you run down the road? Isn't the air blowing thru the radiator to keep the car cool?

Dave
________
SUZUKI DR-Z SERIES SPECIFICATIONS

 

[BioHazard]

NEVER "blow thru" a radiator.
nothing will happen, draw thru it, just like it does in your car

This is totally false. If you have a radiator in a static environment (like a shop, not a car) it makes absolutely no difference which direction the air is blowing. Especially in a custom DIY setup like this.

 

[mikefromme]

FWIW my modine, which is basically a radiator with a fan, has the fan mounted behind the core. It works fine.

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

This is totally false. If you have a radiator in a static environment (like a shop, not a car) it makes absolutely no difference which direction the air is blowing. Especially in a custom DIY setup like this.

Do what ya want,
Then tell detroit to put all the fans in front of the rad.
And i'll tell my boss I'm stupid.
I'm not the chief engineer of CUNY cause I look good in blues.
Open MARKS hand book of engineering values before you open your mouth.
You can blow thru a MODINE because it is designed that way.
An auto radiator is NOT! It IS designed to have its heat DRAWN off

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

FWIW my modine, which is basically a radiator with a fan, has the fan mounted behind the core. It works fine.

Go look a it again, what is the surface to air ratio compared to an, auto radiator?

 

[z28snksknr]

Do what ya want,
Then tell detroit to put all the fans in front of the rad.
And i'll tell my boss I'm stupid.
I'm not the chief engineer of CUNY cause I look good in blues.
Open MARKS hand book of engineering values before you open your mouth.
You can blow thru a MODINE because it is designed that way.
An auto radiator is NOT! It IS designed to have its heat DRAWN off

+1

The heat transfer dynamics of blowing air onto a radiators surface vs. pulling air though the radiator is significantly different.

Creating air turbulence (air molecules moving around in random directions) before the air has entered the radiator will limit the amount of air that can pass through the rad, which directly relates to the amount of heat transferred.

By pulling the air through the rad, you evoke a pathway for the air BEFORE it is accelerated by the fan, so you can remove heat more effectively.

This characteristic is negated if the air path is enlarged enough, which is most likely the case with the previously mentioned Modine unit with the fan behind the core.

 

[BioHazard]

Do what ya want,
Then tell detroit to put all the fans in front of the rad.
And i'll tell my boss I'm stupid.
I'm not the chief engineer of CUNY cause I look good in blues.
Open MARKS hand book of engineering values before you open your mouth.
You can blow thru a MODINE because it is designed that way.
An auto radiator is NOT! It IS designed to have its heat DRAWN off

You're talking about VEHICLES which need OPTIMUM COOLING of the radiator. This thread is about a SHOP HEATER that is in no way operating under optimum or design conditions. It will work both ways, just fine. (and yes, some cars are designed with pusher type fans in front of the radiator) Also the vast majority of vehicle cooling comes from the air rushing INTO the radiator as you drive, not the fan, on any car or truck. That's why cooling fans come with thermostats. This is the way "detroit" has been doing it since Henry Ford, and it is a fact you cannot argue with.

 

[z28snksknr]

Also the vast majority of vehicle cooling comes from the air rushing INTO the radiator as you drive, not the fan, on any car or truck.

It would be pretty hard to get ambient air to pull air through a radiator given the vehicles velocity is what induces the flow of the air over the radiator. It's designed that way because it is the only way it will occur, not because it is better.

Hence, the need for fans (blowing air at much less than 60 MPH) that accomplish the same cooling efficiency as air being forced into the radiator when the 60MPH air is not present.

And since when does anyone on this board not appreciate a better design, especially when it involves just putting the fan on one side or the other of a radiator? It's FREE!

 

[FEDER]

What a great thread. Im at the point of heating My new shop. Ofcoarse waay over budget. So a gas hotwater heater and a couple radiators sounds like a great idea to me.
I have two large aluminum radiators I could use. My question is, could someone explain a modine versus a regular car radiator. I just thought a modine was a brand name. Thanks FEDER

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

You're talking about VEHICLES which need OPTIMUM COOLING of the radiator. This thread is about a SHOP HEATER that is in no way operating under optimum or design conditions. It will work both ways, just fine. (and yes, some cars are designed with pusher type fans in front of the radiator) Also the vast majority of vehicle cooling comes from the air rushing INTO the radiator as you drive, not the fan, on any car or truck. That's why cooling fans come with thermostats. This is the way "detroit" has been doing it since Henry Ford, and it is a fact you cannot argue with.

Then go get a monometer or pitot an give me the specs, BOTH ways.
If he does it right the first time, he wont have to do it over,

Air rushing into a radiator is secondary to its design requirments.
since he has no 40 mph winds, just put the fan in correctly! Geez.

 

[aar0s]

dumb question, probably been answered and i missed it but how do you move the liquid from the heating unit and through the rad and back? what kind of pump would you use for that?

 

[kustomd]

Id be interested to know that also. I can figure everything else out except for the pumping part or does it even need to be pumped? I'm assuming it does need to be pumped but I thought I'd ask also.

 

[BioHazard]

My question is, could someone explain a modine versus a regular car radiator. I just thought a modine was a brand name.

Modine IS nothing but a brand name. They make radiators in all kinds.

Then go get a monometer or pitot an give me the specs, BOTH ways.
If he does it right the first time, he wont have to do it over

Again, you're acting like this guy has a giant diesel engine he's trying to cool He's not trying to COOL anything. Heat will come out of the radiator NO MATTER WHICH SIDE YOU MOUNT THE FAN ON! Period! It is no more complicated than that, this is not a car, and there is no engine! You are also totally disregarding the fact that some cars DO in fact come from the factory with nothing more than PUSHER fans on the front of the radiator. You make it sound like cold air would come out if you put the fan on the front of the radiator. How stupid does that sound?

The fact is if he has a big enough radiator, he may not even need a fan at all. He DEFINATELY does not need a fan sufficient to cool the same radiator as if it was mounted on a truck. If you parked a truck on a dyno in your shop, and piped the exhaust out...and ran the truck at 75mph, it would cook you out of your shop and provide WAY more heat than you would ever need in a very short time.

Car/truck radiators are designed to disappate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of BTUs, I highly doubt this guy's garage boiler is that big.

 

[adamm]

dumb question, probably been answered and i missed it but how do you move the liquid from the heating unit and through the rad and back? what kind of pump would you use for that?

When I bought my boiler it came with a cast iron electric circulating pump. It is something like this TACO circulating pump, but mine is not made by TACO. I plan to use this pump controlled by the thermostat that came with the boiler.

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

"You make it sound like cold air would come out if you put the fan on the front of the radiator. How stupid does that sound"

What sounds stupid is you being so adament about simply putting the fan on the other side of the rad, or leaving it on the backside and hanging the rad accordingly.

Its not about temp, its about volume.

Its 6am, I have 23 acres of buildings, classrooms and labs to heat, later kids.

 

[BioHazard]

What sounds stupid is you being so adament about simply putting the fan on the other side of the rad, or leaving it on the backside and hanging the rad accordingly.

No, what's stupid is you turning this into a complicated engineering project from a guy putting an old radiator in his garage! I don't care which side he mounts the fan on, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that it will make no difference at all!

It does not need to be an expertly engineered peice of thermodynamic genious. All it needs to do is make the damn garage warm. Now, if we were talking about building a race car or a tow rig with heavy cooling requirements, you'd be making some points. In the old days, when people used steam radiators to heat their homes, none of them had fans.

I can't stand people that try to overcomplicate **** like this...

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

"I can't stand people that try to overcomplicate **** like this..."

Stay away from sharp objects then.

All i said was to make sure the fan draws thru thr rad for best effeciany,
How complicated is that?

If i started telling him to build ductwork, check the delta across the coil and install an aquastat, well that overkill!

You sound like the numbskulls i deal with all day, gotta get a committe to put a light fixture in a closet

 

[OccupantRJ]

Biohazard, I agree with you that it won't matter much about which side of the radiator the fan is on as far as generally heating his shop, but it can make a BIG difference in getting hot air to the OTHER side of the shop. If the fan is placed in an extracting position relative to the radiator with a duct funnel (think shroud) allowing the fan maximum negative pressure on the radiator side, it will blow that heat clear across the room, assuming a normal size room. A fan placed on the radiator to provide positive pressure will turbulate most of the air, unless a shroud is used, which will help somewhat. The heat is still in the room, but the distribution of that heat is vastly different. If the radiator was placed into a fan chamber with a fan distributing air through ductwork, then that would be the cat's meow. I have 2 forklifts that I use, and they both blow air through the radiator and out through the counterweight on the rear, so in an automotive sense, this obviously works.

 

[BioHazard]

All i said was to make sure the fan draws thru thr rad for best effeciany,
How complicated is that?

That is far from what you said.

Your actual words:

NEVER "blow thru" a radiator.
nothing will happen

In other words, you tried to say if you blow through it one way, hot air will come out, and the other way, either no air or cold air will come out. Both of which are BS.

 

[z28snksknr]

Biohazard, why are you arguing someone with significant experience who is trying to mention to the OP a more efficient design? Even if the guy just learns something from the technical discussion and additional information, it was worth Fantasy Factory's time to write it.

Isn't that why we all post here? To help each other out? You seem to be ignoring all my contributions which agree with and substantiate what he is saying. Why is a fundamental understanding of what is going on in the design not worth your time?

 

[BioHazard]

He wasn't "trying to mention a more efficient design", but rather flat out said it wouldn't work and wouldn't explain why. I corrected that error and he is the one who decided to make a big deal about it. He was still entirely wrong in his first post. You are still ignoring the fact that some vehicles come from the factory with pusher fans on the front of the radiator.

As for "significant experience", I see no proof of that, and how do you know what my experience is?

The question was asked: "Can I use a car radiator for shop heating?" (with a boiler) and the answer is YES, in addition, you may or may not need a fan at all, and whether or not the fan is in front of or behind the radiator is going to make no difference in this situation. It has nothing to do with "efficiency", both routes would provide the same BTU output due to the fact that a car radiator is WAY oversized. That's why he may not even need any fan at all.

The only reasoning he needs to use at all when deciding to place the fan is "where do I want the hot air to blow?"

 

[z28snksknr]

He wasn't "trying to mention a more efficient design", but rather flat out said it wouldn't work and wouldn't explain why. I corrected that error and he is the one who decided to make a big deal about it. He was still entirely wrong in his first post.

As for "significant experience", I see no proof of that, and how do you know what my experience is?

The question was asked: "Can I use a car radiator for shop heating?" (with a boiler) and the answer is YES, in addition, you may or may not need a fan at all, and whether or not the fan is in front of or behind the radiator is going to make no difference in this situation. It has nothing to do with "efficiency", both routes would provide the same BTU output due to the fact that a car radiator is WAY oversized. That's why he may not even need any fan at all.

The only reasoning he needs to use at all when deciding to place the fan is "where do I want the hot air to blow?"

I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with you. For the sake of the thread, I won't regurgitate my prior posts with my reasons. No disrespect you, just a disagreement.

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

I see the problem now, more than a few individuals here do not have the capacity to read between the lines or interpet a statement.
"nothing will happen" did not mean that planet earth will revert to absolute zero and all matter will will become non functional. it meant that he will not get the desired or expected result. You draw heat off a radiator, NOT blow it around. this is basic physics and a canon of the HVAC industry.
I was right, too many ties, not enough blisters!

 

[BioHazard]

it meant that he will not get the desired or expected result.

Again, this is not true due to the fact that a car radiator is severely oversized for many shops. The OP did not specify how much heat he needs, or square footage, or how much insulation, outside temp, etc...

Again, you're totally ignoring the fact that vehicles come from the factory with front mounted pusher fans on the radiator. How many times do I have to say this?

 

[mikefromme]

Go look a it again, what is the surface to air ratio compared to an, auto radiator?

Not sure why that matters -- just heating a garage.

Here is what I use:

http://store.h-mac.com/mostwahoprun.html

Yes the fan is behind, but it would work in front too. I'm sure modine has there reasons for the rear mount fan.

 

[FANTASY FACTORY]

Again, this is not true due to the fact that a car radiator is severely oversized for many shops. The OP did not specify how much heat he needs, or square footage, or how much insulation, outside temp, etc...

And because he didnt say, he should do a **** or minimal job, rght?

Again, you're totally ignoring the fact that vehicles come from the factory with front mounted pusher fans on the radiator. How many times do I have to say this?

And you can say it till you turn blue, i doubt he is digging up a late model rad designed for pusher fans.

What i find more amazing is that you havent questioned whether he is using 12 volt auto fans, or adapting a 110 volt set up, is he going to just reverse the polarity on the 12 volt, and have the fan blade operate opposite its design parameter as well as the flow thru the rad?

By your reasoning, planes can fly backwards too!

"GOOD ENOUGH IS THE ENEMY OF EXELENCE" DAD.

PS: 16 licensed operating engineers have found this entire thread (you) to be as amusing as Bloombergs idea that taxing cars in times sguare will stop lung diesase.

11:30, i have a construction meeting, Wait till they hear this story..