Cat6 in conduit with 120v

[Ralphxj]

I know running ethernet with power lines is generally something that people don't recommend, but I wanted to run a scenario by the experts on here.

I'm getting ready to move my outdoor wood boiler to its permanent home between the house (50 feet away) and shop (20 feet away) so I can heat both. I need to run run power and data cables along with the underground water lines and I would rather not run 2 conduits if I don't have too.

I run a Control by Web x320 temperature monitor device to monitor my boiler temps. One of the cat6 lines might connect the CBW device to the internet (I haven't decided its final placement) or the lines might just connect my temp sensors directly to the main CBW device. If I do end up running the cat6 in the same line as the 120v, will I have any major issues if i need an internet connection? Here is the cat6 I will be using: https://www.commscope.com/catalog/cables/product_details.aspx?id=34158

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I know running ethernet with power lines is generally something that people don't recommend, but I wanted to run a scenario by the experts on here.

I'm getting ready to move my outdoor wood boiler to its permanent home between the house (50 feet away) and shop (20 feet away) so I can heat both. I need to run run power and data cables along with the underground water lines and I would rather not run 2 conduits if I don't have too.

I run a Control by Web x320 temperature monitor device to monitor my boiler temps. One of the cat6 lines might connect the CBW device to the internet (I haven't decided its final placement) or the lines might just connect my temp sensors directly to the main CBW device. If I do end up running the cat6 in the same line as the 120v, will I have any major issues if i need an internet connection? Here is the cat6 I will be using: https://www.commscope.com/catalog/cables/product_details.aspx?id=34158

Thats the wrong cable for underground use.

Plenum rated cable is for air duct use.

You need underground rated wire.

Also, if you want to run it with power wires, it needs to be 300v rated. I also suggest using shielded wire.

 

[Ralphxj]

Darn, was hoping this would work. Guess I can just use it for the sensors and put the x320 in the house, then I won't need internet at the boiler.

 

[MattT]

Thats the wrong cable for underground use.

Plenum rated cable is for air duct use.

You need underground rated wire.

Also, if you want to run it with power wires, it needs to be 300v rated. I also suggest using shielded wire.

Yeah that's what it'd take to do it safely. Still no guarantee it'd work reliably though. It'll probably cost $20 to run an extra 1/2" PVC pipe in the trench as far away from the power conduit as possible..........

 

[MattT]

Darn, was hoping this would work. Guess I can just use it for the sensors and put the x320 in the house, then I won't need internet at the boiler.

Depending on what the sensors are running the wire for those in the power conduit could be just as bad or worse.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Depending on what the sensors are running the wire for those in the power conduit could be just as bad or worse.

Yeah inductive current can mess up sensors. This is why i suggested shielded wire

 

[ard]

I throw conduit into trench any time I can...an extra one or two has saved my a$$.

Run 3. Use 2. save 1.

$40.

Done

 

[ripperd]

Plus if you use a conduit, you can try to use your plenum cable. And when it fails, you can then re-pull the right cable. I suspect your plenum cable will work perfectly fine for a long time.

 

[Ralphxj]

Plus if you use a conduit, you can try to use your plenum cable. And when it fails, you can then re-pull the right cable. I suspect your plenum cable will work perfectly fine for a long time.

Well I bought a 1000ft roll for $9, so even if I have to pull a new line every winter, im good with that.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Yeah inductive current can mess up sensors. This is why i suggested shielded wire

The wire he linked to has aluminum shielding with a (EDIT supposed to be) grounded drain wire.

How much trouble and expense can it be to drop in another 1/2" PVC ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The wire he linked to has aluminum shielding with a (EDIT supposed to be) grounded drain wire.

How much trouble and expense can it be to drop in another 1/2" PVC ?

Whoops.

I missed the F designation.

Still not rated for underground use.

If using this, definitely use conduit.

 

[ripperd]

Well I bought a 1000ft roll for $9, so even if I have to pull a new line every winter, im good with that.

I've got a shielded 5e non direct bury that I direct buried in the dirt that goes about 50'. It has been going strong for probably 8 years now with no issues.

 

[inphx]

Depending on what the sensors are running the wire for those in the power conduit could be just as bad or worse.

the x320 interfaces to the sensors at the endpoint - from there it is an Ethernet web server so no concern on sensor lines -only if th elan traffic will work. Wifi repeater is easy enough but despite "the right thing to do" it seems liek cat 5 would be fine.

As other have said - additional conduit in parallel is only $20-30 and now is the time to do it.

 

[walta]

Is it a code violation to run the low voltage wire in the pipe with 120/240?

If you do get interference what is your plan?

Walta

 

[Falcon67]

Well I bought a 1000ft roll for $9, so even if I have to pull a new line every winter, im good with that.

I have non-rated Belden Cat5 cheap Amazon cable running across the house and under ground 30' in 1/2" conduit to the shop. Been there 8 years, no issues. If it goes bad for some reason, it'll make a nice pull string for the repalcement.

It's not exactly good practice to run CatWhatever next to power, but the twists are there to prevent/reduce interference. We have miles of it running through old buildings with 3 phase air hanglers, 277v flourescent lights, etc.

 

[Ralphxj]

Is it a code violation to run the low voltage wire in the pipe with 120/240?

If you do get interference what is your plan?

Walta

If I do get interference I would probably then have put a new line in from the boiler to the house. So installing a second conduit probably is the way to go.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is it a code violation to run the low voltage wire in the pipe with 120/240?

If you do get interference what is your plan?

Walta

No, if the low voltage wire has a voltage rating equal to or greater than the line voltage.

EDIT: the link in the OP has specs that say its rated for 300v...

 

[pbon]

Which makes it much more expensive than standard wire.

 

[Ralphxj]

So if its shielded and 300v rated, other then being plenum and not rated for underground, it shouldn't have any interference issues?

 

[exranger06]

No, if the low voltage wire has a voltage rating equal to or greater than the line voltage.

EDIT: the link in the OP has specs that say its rated for 300v...

Do you mean that since THWN wire is typically rated for 600V, that the Cat6 also has to be rated for 600V? Or, since the voltage actually present is only 120V, the Cat6 only needs to be rated for 120V?

 

[jeffmoss26]

code violation.

 

[alfredeneuman]

code violation.

The NEC is crystal clear on this:

300.3
(C) Conductors of Different Systems.
(1) 1000 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of ac and dc circuits, rated 1000 volts, nominal, or less, shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway.
All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.

 

[csi123]

One of the cat6 lines might connect the CBW device to the internet (I haven't decided its final placement)

Doesn't sound like it is actually your "internet" line. You are just merely connecting the cbw to your router. The bandwidth requirement for that is so low that you could have use any wire and it would still work. I won't worry about interfere in this case. If you are running video or a voip line over that then yes you may want to separate it, but not for a device that probably only send a small amount of data with no strict requirement for latency.

 

[Bad Habit]

code violation.

Correct -


National Electrical Code 2017
Chapter 8 Communications Systems
Article 800 Communications Circuits

800.133(A)(1)(c) Electric Light, Power, Class I, Non-Power-Limited Fire Alarm, and Medium-Power Network-Powered Broadband Communications Circuits in Raceways, Compartments, and Boxes. Communications conductors shall not be placed in any raceway, compartment, outlet box, junction box, or similar fitting with conductors of electric-light, power, Class I, non-power-limited fire alarm, or medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits.

Exception No. 1: Section 800.133(A)(1)(c) shall not apply if all of the conductors of electric-light, power, Class I, non-power-limited fire alarm, or medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits are separated from all of the conductors of communications circuits by a permanent barrier or listed divider.

 

[Ralphxj]

Doesn't sound like it is actually your "internet" line. You are just merely connecting the cbw to your router. The bandwidth requirement for that is so low that you could have use any wire and it would still work. I won't worry about interfere in this case. If you are running video or a voip line over that then yes you may want to separate it, but not for a device that probably only send a small amount of data with no strict requirement for latency.

Correct, it connects the device to the network, but it is a VERY small amount of data. As long as the sensor data comes through, all is good! My internet line for the shop computer goes through a direct line from the house so no need to run one through the boiler and then out to the shop.

 

[Falcon67]

Some helpful definitions here

https://www.ecmweb.com/cee-news-archive/technology-wiring-definitions-part-2

 

[brewchief]

I would not run the low voltage in the same conduit, if the cat 6 wire fails or becomes outdated in the future it will be almost impossible to pull it out and pull a new wire through in a conduit with other wires in it.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Arkive]

As someone who's done networking for a long time, the right answer is to put a fiber SFP into a switch at both ends and run a line of single-mode fiber in the conduit. Switches with SFP ports are very reasonably-priced now so there's no reason not to do it right and completely eliminate any potential for issues.

 

[kf4zht]

As someone who's done networking for a long time, the right answer is to put a fiber SFP into a switch at both ends and run a line of single-mode fiber in the conduit. Switches with SFP ports are very reasonably-priced now so there's no reason not to do it right and completely eliminate any potential for issues.

Agree. Mmf fiber for under 600m, smf for more. You can get a net gear or similar switch with an sfp cage and modules cheap on Amazon.

You can price various fiber. Om3/4 will do 10g but I don't see that being an home gamer requirement for a long time, if ever. Though if you can get it for not much more than om1, I'd do it.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

 

[Ralphxj]

As someone who's done networking for a long time, the right answer is to put a fiber SFP into a switch at both ends and run a line of single-mode fiber in the conduit. Switches with SFP ports are very reasonably-priced now so there's no reason not to do it right and completely eliminate any potential for issues.

Temp sensors won't work with fiber. Plus it would be WAY WAY more expensive doing fiber then what I have into the cat6 cable for the network connect to the CBW device.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Temp sensors won't work with fiber. Plus it would be WAY WAY more expensive doing fiber then what I have into the cat6 cable for the network connect to the CBW device.

What type of data are the temp sensors transmitting? Ethernet packets? If so, then it should work over fiber just fine.

Get some fiber and a couple of ethernet to copper converters.

 

[Ralphxj]

They are 1-way sensors that are daisy chained together on a single set of 3 wires.

 

[Arkive]

What exactly is the purpose of measuring the temp readings throughout the conduit?

 

[ard]

We are talking about 50 and 20 FOOT runs. Trenches open at present.

Seems insane to not drop in comm conduits. Fiber??!?

 

[outdoorspace]

Temp sensors won't work with fiber. Plus it would be WAY WAY more expensive doing fiber then what I have into the cat6 cable for the network connect to the CBW device.

I'm not sure if you looked up the device in question, but it uses 100Base-T Ethernet.

Fiber and a couple media converters won't break the bank. That's what I would do. Even if there were a separate conduit because it's a detached structure I would use fiber.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076ZCCCXG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[alfredeneuman]

We are talking about 50 and 20 FOOT runs. Trenches open at present.

I didn't notice THAT
You can buy 3/4"X10' PVC for $2.50ea, with a total material cost of $10 to $20, including the glue. In the total scheme of things, it would be foolish to try and save $ to run it through the same conduit as the power.

 

[Ralphxj]

What exactly is the purpose of measuring the temp readings throughout the conduit?

I'm not measuring the temps in the conduit, I'm running lines from the boiler into the house and into the shop to measure the incoming and outgoing water temps to track heat loss/use.

I'm not sure if you looked up the device in question, but it uses 100Base-T Ethernet.

Fiber and a couple media converters won't break the bank. That's what I would do. Even if there were a separate conduit because it's a detached structure I would use fiber.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076ZCCCXG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I've been running the device for several years. It needs a network connection for the device and it also needs seperate wire run to connect the temp sensors to monitor temps at other areas (inside the house, at the boiler and inside the shop).

 

[alfredeneuman]

They are 1-way sensors that are daisy chained together on a single set of 3 wires.

Could you use the existing wire for the net connection if it only uses 3 wires?

 

[outdoorspace]

I've been running the device for several years. It needs a network connection for the device and it also needs seperate wire run to connect the temp sensors to monitor temps at other areas (inside the house, at the boiler and inside the shop).

I see the sensor signals are analog. The Ethernet signal will fare much better than the analog one in the presence of interference.

The reason I recommend fiber is mainly to protect against damage due to lightning or differences in ground potential in a detached structure (with it's own ground rods per NEC).

 

[ArcticGabe]

Subscribed!

I am in the process of planning a trench out to my new garage as we speak, so good timing on this subject.