Caulk Instead of Grout?

[DRP6833]

Here's the set-up:

We had 18" porcelain tile installed in our kitchen and dining room. The bozo that did the work turned out not to have much (if any) experience with tile and he didn't use enough screws to anchor the backer board. Now the tiles move slightly when walked on and the grout continues to crack and come out. The only real fix is to rip it all out and start over, which we don't want to do. We did get some compensation from the installer for this mess.

I noticed that there is sanded caulk available in tubes. The instructions suggest that it's for use in corners where walls come together or where wall meets countertop. Would it be possible to replace the grout between the tiles with this stuff? The joints are 1/8". The flexibility would certainly solve the cracking problem, but I wonder how it would hold up on a floor.

Anybody ever tried this before?

 

[rlitman]

The only real fix is to rip it all out and start over

Yes. That.

If the grout is cracking because the tiles are shifting, the tiles will eventually break loose, and start breaking too.

I can't answer whether or not there were sufficient screws in the backer (that's likely not the problem), but using sanded caulk is not the answer.

Sorry.

 

[jmlcolorado]

Here's the set-up:

We had 18" porcelain tile installed in our kitchen and dining room. The bozo that did the work turned out not to have much (if any) experience with tile and he didn't use enough screws to anchor the backer board. Now the tiles move slightly when walked on and the grout continues to crack and come out. The only real fix is to rip it all out and start over, which we don't want to do. We did get some compensation from the installer for this mess.

I noticed that there is sanded caulk available in tubes. The instructions suggest that it's for use in corners where walls come together or where wall meets countertop. Would it be possible to replace the grout between the tiles with this stuff? The joints are 1/8". The flexibility would certainly solve the cracking problem, but I wonder how it would hold up on a floor.

Anybody ever tried this before?

As a restoration contractor, i would saw rip it all out and do it right!
You would really be kicking yourself if you had to fix it AGAIN a year down the road when it all comes loose.

When i do tile, i screw and glue the backer board to the subfloor. Now it depends on what the sub straight is. If its concrete, its a totally different story.


Screw the hell outta the backerbpard and glue well. Also, make sure you use the right thin set. If tiles are moving, it tells me that the thin set was wrong to start with.

 

[purplezr2]

If the tiles are loose enough to break the grout, the tiles themselves will start to break soon, had this happen in an apartment I lived in once. They though we caused the damage, had to explain it was cause they didn't fix it right away. The more you walk on it the more damaged it will become.

 

[DRP6833]

Let me clarify...the tiles are not moving sideways but the backer board is flexing because it's not properly anchored to the subfloor. We had to provide material, and after the job was complete there were way too many backer board screws left over. Also, there were several tiles not set flush that we had a different tile repair service replace, and they confirmed that the backer board wasn't attached properly. So a description of the problem is more correctly a slight flexing of the floor, not movement.

Anybody wanna change their answer based on that?

 

[MoonRise]

If the underlayer beneath a ceramic tile floor is flexing enough to crack the grout, then it is flexing enough to crack the tiles themselves.

Rip it all out and do it right. IMNSHO.

Put all the lipstick you want on a pig and it is still just a pig. Or, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Etc, etc.

 

[KPSquared]

Rip it out. Your tiles will soon start breaking. You re-stating the issue just confirms that. Next time, check references and don't hire the cheapest guy (or your buddies nephew that "knows how to tile")

Hard lesson to learn. . .bet you won't make that mistake again.

 

[rlitman]

Like everyone said, left like this, you will soon start breaking tiles. This is all the more likely, because you're talking 18" tiles. Broken tiles have a very sharp edge. Not safe to walk on barefoot. FIX THIS.

Now, here's my question, is the backerboard flexing because it's not secured well enough, or is it the floor flexing. If the whole floor is flexing enough to crack the grout (this is indeed very possible), then using something like Ditra under the tiles may be your best solution.

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Can you put screws in from the bottom (basement, crawl space) to better secure the floor?

I'll be the lone jerryrigger, why not try it and see what happens.

 

[venturesomerite]

Sounds like you're going to have to take it out and start over. Are you sure that it is not enough fasteners, and not that the underlayment is too thin? (aka the sub floor+ the underlayment is not as thick as it should be)

I ask because it sounds more like the floor itself is flexing with weight to me. I've seen a similar scenario and it turned out to be 1/2" ply sub flooring with 1/4" board on it,tile on top of that, and it resulted in cracking grout and eventually tiles. The installer did not want to have a stepped thresh hold/saddle between floors, so he made everything thinner to result in a flush floor seam.

 

[JakeKohl]

On the upside, the tiles shouldn't be too hard to remove!

 

[road]

in my experience you are best to pull it all out and start over.

why not try to do it yourself ?

its really not that difficult but you need the right tools and do some research. like painting a car, to get a great finnish. its all in the bodywork or in your case the sub-floor. get that sub-floor right, lay the tiles level and square, your good to go. i just hate doing grout work....

you can do it, go on try it...

 

[Cookannapurna]

As a guy who has installed thousands of sq ft of tile flooring, I urge you to do what everyone else has, rip it out and start over. You could need thicker backer, more screws (they have minimum screw placements for a reason), the backer itself may need set in a bed of mortar, the subfloor may be insaficiant, or a combination of things.

I hate to see people screwed by bad/incompetent contractors, it gives all of us a bad name, but it happens all the time. A good contractor will give you a warranty, and stand behind it should something be wrong.

A good contractor shows his true colors in the quality of his work, and in how he deals with his screw ups (they happen to the best of us).

 

[Macgyver_ga]

As others said. Rip it up and start over. Go check out the John Bridge tile forums and use their deflecto calculator to determine if your subfloor is sufficient. There is a wealth of knowledge over there! Thicker backer board isnt going to solve it either. The subfloor needs to be sufficent. Backer board should be thinsetted down with modified thinset and screwed with proper backer board specific screws. Those 18" tiles will pop loose quicker than smaller tiles will.

 

[Speedy2222]

Not sure if it has been said yet but there's 2 problems that i am seeing here( mostly in replies too)

#1 You have to mortar the backing board to the sub floor

#2 Use roofing nails to secure the board in place while the mortar sets.

I have never done it any other way than this and have never had an issue. I have fixed many jobs where the backing board was never mortared down and tiles were cracking or popping up all over the place.

 

[DRP6833]

Thanks, guys, for the flood of advice. Guess I better start saving my pennies. A few comments/clarifications/rants...

The subfloor is 3/4" OSB with 1/2" backerboard.

We purchased the tile from a "tile warehouse" and used one of their "recommended contractors." He certainly wasn't the lowest bid. Turns out this guy was a hardwood installer; the only reason I think he got this job was because it was close to where he lived. We would have expected that if he was recommended by the store the guy he would have known what he was doing. We were matching an adjacent sunroom addition and the first question he asked was if we knew what size grout line was used in there. That should have been a clue! And even I know better than this - he mixed the entire batch of grout at once (about 250 sq ft of tile); by the time he got to the end it was way too dry to stay adhered. It was cracking within 24 hours.

Long story short, the store absolutely refused any responsibility, and said any claims we had were with the installer himself. We did get some compensation from the guy to cover another contractor coming in to replace about a dozen tiles that were not set level (as much as 1/8" above the adjacent tile, a real trip hazzard!) and regrout the whole thing. This contractor is the one who said the backer board wasn't installed correctly, and we'd continue to have problems. And indeed, three months later the new grout is cracking as well.

I have laid floor tile before, and in fact considered doing this job myself. However with old age comes wisdom and arthritis, and I knew this was one of those jobs better hired out.

 

[venturesomerite]

I think that If you just do the research and take your time, there is no reason you can't bang it out in a weekend, and enjoy it for years to come. Just call in those favors...

 

[Macgyver_ga]

Thanks, guys, for the flood of advice. Guess I better start saving my pennies. A few comments/clarifications/rants...

The subfloor is 3/4" OSB with 1/2" backerboard.

We purchased the tile from a "tile warehouse" and used one of their "recommended contractors." He certainly wasn't the lowest bid. Turns out this guy was a hardwood installer; the only reason I think he got this job was because it was close to where he lived. We would have expected that if he was recommended by the store the guy he would have known what he was doing. We were matching an adjacent sunroom addition and the first question he asked was if we knew what size grout line was used in there. That should have been a clue! And even I know better than this - he mixed the entire batch of grout at once (about 250 sq ft of tile); by the time he got to the end it was way too dry to stay adhered. It was cracking within 24 hours.

Long story short, the store absolutely refused any responsibility, and said any claims we had were with the installer himself. We did get some compensation from the guy to cover another contractor coming in to replace about a dozen tiles that were not set level (as much as 1/8" above the adjacent tile, a real trip hazzard!) and regrout the whole thing. This contractor is the one who said the backer board wasn't installed correctly, and we'd continue to have problems. And indeed, three months later the new grout is cracking as well.

I have laid floor tile before, and in fact considered doing this job myself. However with old age comes wisdom and arthritis, and I knew this was one of those jobs better hired out.

What size and type are your floor joists? what's the joist spacing? What's the length of the unsupported span (length between supporting walls underneath)?

To give you an example: I recently remodeled my girlfriend's bathroom and we put down 12x12 porcelain tile on the floor. She had 3/4 plywood subfloor on 2x12 engineered "I" joists with only about a 5ft unsupported span... however due to the 24" OC joist spacing, I had to add an additional layer of 1/2" plywood to minimize the deflection that could occur between the joists. Then put my 1/4" hardibacker on top of that set in a bed of thinset and screwed down. The good thing about hardibacker is they have premarked locations on the sheet where all your screws should go.

At least it's not as bad as the girl I saw remodeling her kitchen on the show "Renovation Realities" the other night. They laid tile right on top of a linoleum floor I give that floor less than a week before the grout starts cracking and tiles start popping up.

 

[hammer10]

I have the same questions, but for a different reason. My subfloor is double 3/4 EXT ply with backer board screwed every six inches, so the bounce, shift, or whatever isnt an issue.
My customer picked tumbled 6x6 marble, peppered with voids and pockets, She wants these to show, so standard grout applied and sqeeegee'd diaginally will not work, since it wull fill in the voids. I taped off all the 4x4 wall tile, and applied the grout with a thin spatula. PITA doeasnt even describe it.
So...matching sanded caulk, can I use it on the floor, to avoid the six hour task of taping?

 

[madosta]

Urethane sanded caulk is flexible. It is not grout. I would use it wherever there is a transition, but not for grouting tiles.

 

[duneslider]

Your answer is no. Sanded caulk would not be a good option and it would cost you a fortune.

You could us a grout bag to fill just the joint, strike the joints, let dry sufficient and follow up with a rub down with burlap. After a little more dry time you might need a follow up wash with a damp sponge.

Also, you can buy empty caulk tubes and fill them with your own mixed grout. A royal pain in my opinion.

You are leaving the voids on the floor? They will fill with all sorts of junk if that is the plan. If this is just a backsplash you can get away with leaving the voids.

Hope you put thinset under your backerboard or none of this will really matter.

 

[Jsf721]

I had, and still have this problem in a property we own. I have tried replacing the grout with epoxy grout when I repair sections. It is a vacation property that I only used 2 weeks per year and that make making repairs difficult. What I can tell you is several people have told me that it needs to be ripped up, re-screwed and set in mud. Right not it is glued to the sub floor on the 2nd floor. There is too much flex and the grout keeps working itself out. The epoxy lasts longer for sure.

Good Luck!

Here's the set-up:

We had 18" porcelain tile installed in our kitchen and dining room. The bozo that did the work turned out not to have much (if any) experience with tile and he didn't use enough screws to anchor the backer board. Now the tiles move slightly when walked on and the grout continues to crack and come out. The only real fix is to rip it all out and start over, which we don't want to do. We did get some compensation from the installer for this mess.

I noticed that there is sanded caulk available in tubes. The instructions suggest that it's for use in corners where walls come together or where wall meets countertop. Would it be possible to replace the grout between the tiles with this stuff? The joints are 1/8". The flexibility would certainly solve the cracking problem, but I wonder how it would hold up on a floor.

Anybody ever tried this before?

 

[shoot summ]

I have the same questions, but for a different reason. My subfloor is double 3/4 EXT ply with backer board screwed every six inches, so the bounce, shift, or whatever isnt an issue.
My customer picked tumbled 6x6 marble, peppered with voids and pockets, She wants these to show, so standard grout applied and sqeeegee'd diaginally will not work, since it wull fill in the voids. I taped off all the 4x4 wall tile, and applied the grout with a thin spatula. PITA doeasnt even describe it.
So...matching sanded caulk, can I use it on the floor, to avoid the six hour task of taping?

Get a grout gun, you will still need to work the grout out of the voids but at least the application of grout is more controlled. I use one for grouting rough stone to reduce the amount of grout I have to remove from the stone surface.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001P3SF1C/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Big-Foot]

Hammer10 - Check out SnapStone flexible grout.. It is some very strong stuff that will allow flex, expansion and contraction... You may be able to whip up your own flexible grout by mixing in a little latex too.. The grout itself does not add any appreciable strength to the bonding of the tile to the floor. That's the job of the thinset or mastic you used to ond the tiles down.

Edit - Oh yeah, welcome to Garage Journal!

 

[rsanter]

It has to be ripped out....
With that said try what you want as you will need to replace it completely at some point
For buying time I think it will work

Bob

 

[DRP6833]

Thought I'd resurect this thread and give "the rest of the story."

Since the replacement grout was also cracking and coming out, as a temporary fix I decided to remove it all and re-grout it myself. I used a multi-tool to remove the grout. Some of it came out like loose sand, like there was voids in it; other sections were solid. Once I got all the old grout removed I regrouted using an additive instead of water to mix the grout. I really was careful to work it down into the joints. I mixed small batches and only worked it for 15-20 minutes before I tossed what was left and mixed some more.

The result is that after about 8 months I only have one section about 6" long that's showing any cracks. Everything else is holding up great! My take is that neither the original contractor nor the tile repair contractor did a proper job on the grouting.

Anyway all appears to be well for now.

 

[Big-Foot]

Sounds like a job well done!