Cause for this peel off epoxy-coat?
- Thread starter usafstud
- Start date
Cripes! looks just like mine - but mine is worse!
See my recent post:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156672
Looks like hot tire pickup, whereas a hot, usually wet tire causes adhesion between the tire and the epoxy. As you roll off, the epoxy lifts along with a section of concrete!
Epoxy mfgs. will say that their epoxy is not failing - but rather your cement is too weak. I'm looking into floor mats, runners, carpet sections or decking pads to park on so that my tires will not contact the epoxy directly.
I'll have to patch, re-epoxy those sections - which will look like azz. Then put pads on top of my epoxy floor, which will look like azz. Had I known - I would have gone cheap on the epoxy job and still put parking pads down or gone with racedeck / vinyl rollout flooring / tiles / etc.
Here is mine
See my recent post:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156672
Looks like hot tire pickup, whereas a hot, usually wet tire causes adhesion between the tire and the epoxy. As you roll off, the epoxy lifts along with a section of concrete!
Epoxy mfgs. will say that their epoxy is not failing - but rather your cement is too weak. I'm looking into floor mats, runners, carpet sections or decking pads to park on so that my tires will not contact the epoxy directly.
I'll have to patch, re-epoxy those sections - which will look like azz. Then put pads on top of my epoxy floor, which will look like azz. Had I known - I would have gone cheap on the epoxy job and still put parking pads down or gone with racedeck / vinyl rollout flooring / tiles / etc.
Here is mine
Last edited:
JimVonBaden
Well-known member
99.9% of the time it is install error. Just ask the experts!
Jim
Jim
JimVonBaden
Well-known member
99.9% of the time the dealers say the prep wasn't good enough, or that the base concrete was flawed.
Jim
PS I'm not a dealer, I am just parroting what they usually post.
Big-Foot
Well-known member
99.9% of the time the dealers say the prep wasn't good enough, or that the base concrete was flawed.
Jim
PS I'm not a dealer, I am just parroting what they usually post.
Agreed.. Judging by the crumbly crud under that blister in the epoxy, it looks like the floor was not completely clean prior to being coated. Or. There might have been a bad spot in the concrete itself that just gave up and let go. Take a look at any concrete that has spalled and you'll see the same thing.
Interex
Well-known member
If you pull the chip off and find concrete still sticking to the bottom of it, it's the concrete that failed or the surface was gouged hard enough to go through your coating and chip the concrete off. If the chip pulls clean off from the concrete, the adhesion failed and the finger pointing begins. As mentioned above, product manufactures will blame prep, installation, or outgasing and/or moisture that caused the adhesion to fail.
Here is my 2 cents...
Yes, many times prep work can be the culprit - but other times it is a combination of issues.
No the epoxy did not fail, but soft concrete and new epoxy seems to be a problematic combination. In my example - I prepped to the extreme - on my hands and knees with a diamond grinder - double/triple drying/curing times. When I ground the floor, I did notice that it went quite easily - likely a sign that my concrete was soft to begin with. Would a pro installer have picked up on this and done something? I don't know.
However, with my prior garage floor coating - there was no evidence of any concrete damage. It was a poor job by the previous owner and did have some flaking spots - but it was just the coating. I would deduce that a nice thick coat of fresh epoxy over soft concrete makes for a poor recipe when you add a heavy car/sticky hot tires. The epoxy allows for very good adhesion. So yes, while the concrete did fail - the epoxy coating is not blameless.
My issue is that I don't know that I saw many/any warnings of this possible failure - all I saw was "No hot tire pickup!" on the expensive kits.
If the pros are that good and would pickup on this problem ahead of time - then shame on me for saving $1,800 by having someone else prep my floor.
Yes, many times prep work can be the culprit - but other times it is a combination of issues.
No the epoxy did not fail, but soft concrete and new epoxy seems to be a problematic combination. In my example - I prepped to the extreme - on my hands and knees with a diamond grinder - double/triple drying/curing times. When I ground the floor, I did notice that it went quite easily - likely a sign that my concrete was soft to begin with. Would a pro installer have picked up on this and done something? I don't know.
However, with my prior garage floor coating - there was no evidence of any concrete damage. It was a poor job by the previous owner and did have some flaking spots - but it was just the coating. I would deduce that a nice thick coat of fresh epoxy over soft concrete makes for a poor recipe when you add a heavy car/sticky hot tires. The epoxy allows for very good adhesion. So yes, while the concrete did fail - the epoxy coating is not blameless.
My issue is that I don't know that I saw many/any warnings of this possible failure - all I saw was "No hot tire pickup!" on the expensive kits.
If the pros are that good and would pickup on this problem ahead of time - then shame on me for saving $1,800 by having someone else prep my floor.
Looks almost the same as the Pros that did my friends garage, less the crud that's under it. I am shocked that the tires stick to cured epoxy better than to rough concrete. Not shame on you at all for saving some $$$. My friend paid $9 per square foot, and dealing with the same now. The heat wave seems to have opened the door on this issue. All was fine before the temps hit 90.
pauls340
Well-known member
It would be interesting to know when the concrete slab was poured and when was the epoxy put down? Those pics are a classic delamination of the concrete surface. It's much deaper than just the laitence layer caused by hard troweling. Concrete cures 1" in 40 days after the HVAC is on (interior) . One option is to saw cut the damaged areas ~1/4" deep, remove delaminated concrete, repair area and epoxy in a solid color. It will look artsy. It will look like you did it on purpose
pauls340
Well-known member
That was going to be my second option
TheChanMan
Active member
I don't want to go all CSI on this, but does anyone see the scratch marks behind the blemish? IMHO it looks like the kickstand dug into the epoxy as you were backing up, assuming this happened while moving your bike backward. I work on motorcycles all day long, and the concrete behind our shop where we roll bikes in and out looks like this in some spots. Mostly from HD's and larger cruisers. Either on the bike or off, with the kickstand down and heading backward as you step, or waddle (if on the M/C) the bike's moving back and forth and the sidestand skims over the pavement. Just a little past vertical and the stand will touch down and kiss the pavement. The scratches trajectory after the blemish look like this may have been the case. Again, on white concrete it looks like a big "dig" and a following "skimming" afterward as you stepped from one leg to another. Kinda looks similar in the photo, and if you have a heavier bike it'd definitely auger into that epoxy pretty easy, and you'd maybe not realize. Sorry to be so longwinded.
Garage-Tech
Well-known member
Im taking a look at your pictures and I notice a couple of things...
1st - The small bubbles all over the floor. Those look to be outgassing bubbles. When im installing a epoxy floor its always cheap insurance to use a good primer that penetrates deep into the open pores of the concrete. This will seal the floor and take care of outgassing problems. This also gives the epoxy the strongest hold onto the concrete surface.
2nd - The pictures under the pealed spot reveal something to me. I cant tell for sure but it almost looks as if the epoxy is still wet underneath. If this is the case then two things could have contributed. One the finish was applied to thick. This could possibly be the case. Two the A&B parts of the epoxy were not properly mixed. Then you could end up with some areas that will remain sticky or uncured.
Most likely its weak/soft concrete. This is a hit or miss subject. Some guys assure you they can cure this problem and others wont touch it. Think of your floor like a hard boiled egg. You just put a shell over the unstable white and yoke. As long as the egg doesn't take a hard hit, lifting forces (hot tire lift) or sheer forces (turning tires on the epoxy) it should be okay.
I hope you get it fixed up.
1st - The small bubbles all over the floor. Those look to be outgassing bubbles. When im installing a epoxy floor its always cheap insurance to use a good primer that penetrates deep into the open pores of the concrete. This will seal the floor and take care of outgassing problems. This also gives the epoxy the strongest hold onto the concrete surface.
2nd - The pictures under the pealed spot reveal something to me. I cant tell for sure but it almost looks as if the epoxy is still wet underneath. If this is the case then two things could have contributed. One the finish was applied to thick. This could possibly be the case. Two the A&B parts of the epoxy were not properly mixed. Then you could end up with some areas that will remain sticky or uncured.
Most likely its weak/soft concrete. This is a hit or miss subject. Some guys assure you they can cure this problem and others wont touch it. Think of your floor like a hard boiled egg. You just put a shell over the unstable white and yoke. As long as the egg doesn't take a hard hit, lifting forces (hot tire lift) or sheer forces (turning tires on the epoxy) it should be okay.
I hope you get it fixed up.
I don't want to go all CSI on this, but does anyone see the scratch marks behind the blemish? IMHO it looks like the kickstand dug into the epoxy as you were backing up, assuming this happened while moving your bike backward. I work on motorcycles all day long, and the concrete behind our shop where we roll bikes in and out looks like this in some spots. Mostly from HD's and larger cruisers. Either on the bike or off, with the kickstand down and heading backward as you step, or waddle (if on the M/C) the bike's moving back and forth and the sidestand skims over the pavement. Just a little past vertical and the stand will touch down and kiss the pavement. The scratches trajectory after the blemish look like this may have been the case. Again, on white concrete it looks like a big "dig" and a following "skimming" afterward as you stepped from one leg to another. Kinda looks similar in the photo, and if you have a heavier bike it'd definitely auger into that epoxy pretty easy, and you'd maybe not realize. Sorry to be so longwinded.
The piece above the peel off is a piece of the material that got peeled off. I been very careful about scratching the floor.
1. Those are the anti-skid materials.
I think it might be from there was a small piece spot of oil stain. I'm going to put a treadmill pad under each bike.
I am sure there are epoxy floors out there that have no problems after a period of time ... but every time I see photos of these types of problems with the various epoxy finishes, I feel I did the right thing by installing 20" x 20" porcelain tiles on my garage floor.
At least I think it will be permanent with no failures down the road.
Sorry to see problems like this occur after all the time, effort and money spent.
At least I think it will be permanent with no failures down the road.
Sorry to see problems like this occur after all the time, effort and money spent.
I haven't heard from this customer yet, but it does look like there is something going on under the coating. Am I the only one seeing this? I would like to see the floor once you peel that area off, lets try to figure out whats going on and see if we can fix it.
Sea_J
Member
Did you spray the floor clean with water? if you did how long did you wait until you applied the epoxy? I waited 3 days then did the plastic test to make sure there was no moisture left in the concrete before I put my floor down. I know how much woirk goes into one of these floors. I hope you can get this worked out
dcs Inc
Well-known member
I remember years ago when I was just a pup helping my dad pour concrete. He would have me sprinkle water in front of the trowel machine so he could get a slick finish or keep his water bottle full when hand finishing. I didn't know then what affect it had on the durability of the surface. I remember helping him real late in the year and the trowels would freeze. He would apply warm water on the slab and slicked it out by hand and having to wash the tools in warm water so I could keep the trowels clean. Bull floating the bleed water back into the surface paste was the norm also. These are just a couple of causes for a "soft surface".
The 'Kit" sellers want you to think it's as easy as spreading peanut butter on a piece of bread....... sometimes it is. Not knowing what to look for, how to test the surface can bring negative results from your hard work. Even fly-by-night "professional" installers can (and do) install over slabs that are incorrectly prepped. Some slabs are just not good candidates for a seamless application.
There are test kits to tell you the hardness of the surface. the ping test (chain drug over the surface) can tell you if the surface paste has delaminated. If you can take a screw driver and deep scratch the surface.... don't apply epoxy. If it sounds hollow in some areas... don't apply epoxy. If you have oil spots... don't apply epoxy.
Epoxy needs to be applied on a solid profiled surface. The acid etching is easy but in most cases it really doesn't profile the surface for good adhesion. It adds moisture to the slab and often isn't neutralized correctly and this can be problematic.
And.... I like a lot of peanut butter on my bread. Makes for a longer lasting sandwich.
The 'Kit" sellers want you to think it's as easy as spreading peanut butter on a piece of bread....... sometimes it is. Not knowing what to look for, how to test the surface can bring negative results from your hard work. Even fly-by-night "professional" installers can (and do) install over slabs that are incorrectly prepped. Some slabs are just not good candidates for a seamless application.
There are test kits to tell you the hardness of the surface. the ping test (chain drug over the surface) can tell you if the surface paste has delaminated. If you can take a screw driver and deep scratch the surface.... don't apply epoxy. If it sounds hollow in some areas... don't apply epoxy. If you have oil spots... don't apply epoxy.
Epoxy needs to be applied on a solid profiled surface. The acid etching is easy but in most cases it really doesn't profile the surface for good adhesion. It adds moisture to the slab and often isn't neutralized correctly and this can be problematic.
And.... I like a lot of peanut butter on my bread. Makes for a longer lasting sandwich.
I understand your wanting to promote installation business. But lets be realistic here, alot of people cannot afford you. I'm sure you do an awesome job. This is no reason to badmouth or degrade anyone who wants to have a nice floor and is willing to do it themselves. ANYTHING done by a true professional will and should have a different outcome. We do sell an awesome "KIT" that most people can do fairly easily. For the most part they must be having great results, we have been in business for over 30 years.
I'll agree, the concrete does not look normal underneath the peel.
dcs Inc
Well-known member
I'm sorry Christine, I should of started a separate thread as my post wasn't pointed at any particular DIY supplier.
Elite Crete looked at starting a DIY branch several years ago but felt it would be more of a headache than it was worth. The problem is you'd have to write extended volumes of what ifs and how to's. We wouldn't recommend just squirting a little acid (safe or unsafe) on the surface and it's "profiled". We would require the proper prep procedures.We would have to include calcium chloride test kits and pH test kit with every sale for vapor emissions and excessive surface alkalinity. A hygrometer to test air temps and relative humidity, some way of testing the surface temperature of the concrete. Maybe a spine roller to take care of out gassing. Do you guys go over any of this when you sell a kit? I can see keeping up with the cheaper, err, (less expensive) competitor pricing. Maybe all you guys do take care of all these things and I'm out of line. (Not just you Christine, all the DIY sellers).
Oh, if you would like for me to remove my replies, I'd be more than happy to start a seperate thread. I'm not here to sell anybody any materials, just trying to help with the application proceedures.
I think if the gentlemen with the hairy bubble would check the alkalinity under that tear, it would be off the charts.
Gene,
No need to remove any comments. Again, for the most part, we do consult with our customers and ask a variety of questions to reasonably determine if they need any further testing etc. I'm sure this is one place where I really do not have to defend my/our companies reputation.
I have been in contact with this customer and we will figure out the issue and correct it with him.
No need to remove any comments. Again, for the most part, we do consult with our customers and ask a variety of questions to reasonably determine if they need any further testing etc. I'm sure this is one place where I really do not have to defend my/our companies reputation.
I have been in contact with this customer and we will figure out the issue and correct it with him.
LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Echoing Christine's sentiment...
The percentage of floors gone wrong is extremely low for us too.
The vast majority have a good experience. Many come back for other projects, second homes, businesses, etc...
The percentage of floors gone wrong is extremely low for us too.
The vast majority have a good experience. Many come back for other projects, second homes, businesses, etc...
Bring a repeat customer of Legacy Industrial, I agree with the statement "The vast majority have a good experience. Many come back for other projects, second homes, businesses, etc..".... I used the HD 100% solids (White) and added a urethane top coat. Awesome, awesome, awesome. I cannot say enough about the product and customer support, and as for the quality of the product, just ask all the people who constantly ask "What professional install team put this floor in for you? I have never seen a floor that looks this good." That would be ME, and I have the shirt to prove it. Novice installer, professional results.
dcs Inc
Well-known member
This is not an epoxy product fault. Could be a problem with leaving a residue on the surface, not neutralizing enough and washing the residue off, or excessive calcium chloride in the surface. I'd vote for the last one. For what ever cause it's grown and caused a weak point under the epoxy. It would be nice to see a scale of this. Throw out a quarter or something. I'm real interested in what has happened. Hopefully it's just a small contained area. It's really important to test the pH of the surface. Christine, what kind of acid do you send with your kits? What's the active ingredient?
LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Thanks for the compliment. You made it happen!
Look at all of the debris that's around the tear and stuck to the underside of the epoxy.
Maybe:
1. It was gouged.
2. The floor was not vacuumed enough after grinding.
3. Some sort of spall caused by a weak spot in the concrete.
I don't think it was gouged because the peel off is on two sides of the area. I had a new pressure washer (maybe 3 hp) to clean the floor about 4 tires before starting the work. I did a water test by sprinkling some water on to the floor and it did absorb it quickly.
dcs Inc
Well-known member
I'm not going to offer any reasons why this happened. If I may, can I ask you to answer a couple questions. Not being familiar with others epoxies, some of these questions may sound dumb.
the epoxy you used, did it come with color packs? Were they powdered?
You powered wash 3 times, was this before acid etching or after?
Did you neutralize the acid etching, assuming you acid etched?
How much time was the slab allowed to dry after power washing?
Can you find out the humidity levels at the time of placement, temperature? Just wondering what the dew point was.
What I am seeing is complete separation from the concrete. You can see the texture of the concrete on the backside of the pigmented base coat. I take it you applied a clear top coating.
thomapa1 posted his problem and I will offer my opinion on his situation. I alluded to it in one of my other posts. Adding water to the surface makes it soft, a light freeze during placement will cause ice crystals to form in the surface paste and even though you can still slick finish it out, it's belly up time. Bull floating surface water back into the surface cream will often cause a separation from the aggregate just below the surface. The surface drying faster than below will cause a separation. Anyway, sometimes this is hard to see and find. Tapping the concrete surface and it responds with a dull thud and not a sharp ping is a big warning sign. Soft concrete surface is trouble down the road, scratch it with a screw driver. ***** to find this out later.
As far as the above, I'm "wanting" to see a chemical reaction of some sort. Interesting. I see this on my old concrete block wall in the basement where I have a lot of moisture driving the salts through the interior surface. (another honey do list).
If you can answer these questions straight up maybe we can all learn something from this. I'm always in the learning mode. gene
the epoxy you used, did it come with color packs? Were they powdered?
You powered wash 3 times, was this before acid etching or after?
Did you neutralize the acid etching, assuming you acid etched?
How much time was the slab allowed to dry after power washing?
Can you find out the humidity levels at the time of placement, temperature? Just wondering what the dew point was.
What I am seeing is complete separation from the concrete. You can see the texture of the concrete on the backside of the pigmented base coat. I take it you applied a clear top coating.
thomapa1 posted his problem and I will offer my opinion on his situation. I alluded to it in one of my other posts. Adding water to the surface makes it soft, a light freeze during placement will cause ice crystals to form in the surface paste and even though you can still slick finish it out, it's belly up time. Bull floating surface water back into the surface cream will often cause a separation from the aggregate just below the surface. The surface drying faster than below will cause a separation. Anyway, sometimes this is hard to see and find. Tapping the concrete surface and it responds with a dull thud and not a sharp ping is a big warning sign. Soft concrete surface is trouble down the road, scratch it with a screw driver. ***** to find this out later.
As far as the above, I'm "wanting" to see a chemical reaction of some sort. Interesting. I see this on my old concrete block wall in the basement where I have a lot of moisture driving the salts through the interior surface. (another honey do list).
If you can answer these questions straight up maybe we can all learn something from this. I'm always in the learning mode. gene