Caution to home buyers

[McFarmer]

THANK YOU! I'm really tired of the over-hyped "wind chill" or worse "feels like" numbers. These are BS numbers made up to make things sound worse so you'll tune in to the 24-7 weather reports. Yeah, a real -20F is damn cold. The -58 or whatever "feels like" number is just BS.

Here's a hint. If the real temp is 34F and the "feels like" number is 24, water still won't freeze.

Well, I don’t call BS very often but I’ve been out feeding cows enough to know that -10 with a thirty mile wind is pretty fricken cold.

We have tables that tell us how much more to feed those cows at various temps and wind chills, days like these they can’t eat enough. Some guys feed them molasses or beer.

I’ll take -20 still and sunny any day.

That’s the winner on the BS scale.

 

[McFarmer]

Holey ****....Did you guys just move to the great white north.....or just get overwhelmed witt the media hype. Cars and building don’t feel wind chill .......they just cool down faster but never drop below the thermometer reading.

Actually houses do feel windchill. The tables on building heat loss has more loss with wind than still air.

And nothing drops below the thermometer reading. Yeah, yeah, evaporation.

 

[LandR]

We buy several homes a year for investment or personal use. We try to always use the home inspector. He is 3x the price of the average home inspector but it's worth the piece of mind and finding something that is not up to code or undersized during negotiations.

 

[nsula_country]

I still wanna know how many btus it would take to keep said house warm at -30.

And would like to know size of current system.

This seems more interesting than throwing lipstick and hitting each other with your purses over air filters.

I needed that this morning! 2 pages on forced air filters.

CT

 

[JerryC]

My 2 cents...
cover plate gaskets for light switches and outlets and plugging unused outlets helps a some for very little money. When everything else is tight air will move through the outlets. Some of mine had a significant velocity of air moving through them, even on interior walls.

If the temps are low enough that you are concerned your car radiator will freeze with proper coolant, You should also be concerned about your oils (motor, differentials) not being good for cold temps. If the oil doesn't flow, bad things happen.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I don't think you understand how filters work.

5 x 1" =/ 1 x 5"

WRONG.

Stacking is a very bad idea. It causes a huge pressure drop and greatly reduces air volume. (5) 1" filters are not even close to (1) 5" filter. (5) 1" filters are approximately 5x more restrictive.



McFarmer, look here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW0XYWE/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Or even a little less expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVF51ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Tommy

 

[McFarmer]

WRONG.

Stacking is a very bad idea. It causes a huge pressure drop and greatly reduces air volume. (5) 1" filters are not even close to (1) 5" filter. (5) 1" filters are approximately 5x more restrictive.



McFarmer, look here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW0XYWE/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Or even a little less expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVF51ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Tommy

Thanks, that’s a little less.

Was the fellow trying to say 5 one inch filters does not equal 1 five inch ?

That’s what I assumed.

Jebus, who knew so much passion was out there for furnace filters.

 

[850xpeps]

Thanks, that’s a little less.



Was the fellow trying to say 5 one inch filters does not equal 1 five inch ?



That’s what I assumed.



Jebus, who knew so much passion was out there for furnace filters.

I’d say more passion for stopping misinformation.

 

[JRC3]

Then they ***** that they just changed it 2 mos ago,it is supposed to be good for 6 months!
Higher merv ratings mean it's going to be more restrictive sooner,same goes for ac season causing iced up coils and other issues.
I change the pleated true blue filters in all my rentals every month,they say they're good for up to 3 months but for $2.00 a piece it's not a big deal .
But do what ever makes you happy.

No ****, that's why it's pleated. Pleating gives more surface area so it takes longer to clog. If 1" was something like a MERV 11 it would clog in a week, not a month.

And for the record I said nothing about leaving them in for 6 months. They still need to be changed frequently as advised. Anyone choosing such a filter is doing it for a reason (respiratory, etc) and should realize it comes with the added expense. What another user chooses to do in their rentals with 1" filters has no bearing on it.

I don't have one, btw. I just understand why they are used and why they are made like they are.



Hey, why do you think car filters are pleated? A: To fit them in a tight space.

 

[nsula_country]

WRONG.

Stacking is a very bad idea. It causes a huge pressure drop and greatly reduces air volume. (5) 1" filters are not even close to (1) 5" filter. (5) 1" filters are approximately 5x more restrictive.



McFarmer, look here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW0XYWE/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Or even a little less expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVF51ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Tommy

This is correct.

CT

 

[justinjoyal]

WRONG.

Stacking is a very bad idea. It causes a huge pressure drop and greatly reduces air volume. (5) 1" filters are not even close to (1) 5" filter. (5) 1" filters are approximately 5x more restrictive.



McFarmer, look here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW0XYWE/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Or even a little less expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVF51ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Tommy

Just makin sure...

I said 5 x 1 =/ 1 x 5

=/ as in « does not equal »[emoji6]

I cant even imagine the pressure drop across 5 one inch filters ! Thats one I have yet to come across, even on the shittiest setups !

 

[nsula_country]

To mitigate return pressure drop on my shop system (5 ton, 2000 cfm), I added 50% filter capacity. 2, 20x25 required for 2000 cfm (there are formulas for this). I used 3, 20x25 to provide up to 3000 cfm capacity.

Filter base with 3, 20x25x1 filter grills.

View media item 89844
CT

 

[checkthisout]

House here in wa state at 1250 sf has a 20,000 watt furnace. Coldest temps it has ever see are 10 degrees f.

Cant imagine what you rust belt boys would need at -30 for the same house size.

 

[850xpeps]

House here in wa state at 1250 sf has a 20,000 watt furnace. Coldest temps it has ever see are 10 degrees f.

Cant imagine what you rust belt boys would need at -30 for the same house size.

My 1870 sq ft house full basement has the same. 20kw of electric heat. -40 Celsius today and keeps up fine. 18kw was what was sized but changed airnhandler and 20kw was the strips offered.

 

[nsula_country]

In the picture above that i posted is a 20kw in a 40x60x17 with a 4/12 pitch metal building with minimal insulation. So far, without finished ducts has kept it at 60* at 30*...

CT

 

[Showkey]

House here in wa state at 1250 sf has a 20,000 watt furnace. Coldest temps it has ever see are 10 degrees f.

Cant imagine what you rust belt boys would need at -30 for the same house size.

20000 watts equals about 68k btu for comparison.

2500 sqft home plus 2500 sqft basement well sealed and very well insulated is heated to 68* witha multi stage 65k btu NG 95% furnace with an outside actual temp of -17* over night was -28*. The furnace only kicked into high heat twice in 24 hours. Currently running at low heat at 20-30k btu about three to four times per hour

1000 sqft detached well insulated shop heated to 60* under the same conditions heated with a 80% NG furnace rated at 45k btu.

This heat plus hot water and dryer and cook top etc is all done for less $100-$150 per month depending on conditions. NG is dirt cheap. Summer NG is $25-28 per month witha meter charge of $18 included in that $28 charge.

Insulation and well sealed is the key for heating and cooling any structure at reasonable cost to comfortable temp.

 

[Toomanytools?]

Wow for a heat pump that can't keep up there sure is a lot of hot air moving around this thread.

 

[Toomanytools?]

WRONG.

Stacking is a very bad idea. It causes a huge pressure drop and greatly reduces air volume. (5) 1" filters are not even close to (1) 5" filter. (5) 1" filters are approximately 5x more restrictive.



McFarmer, look here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW0XYWE/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Or even a little less expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVF51ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Tommy

This is what my system uses https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008B80WY2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Crazy expensive.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Just makin sure...

I said 5 x 1 =/ 1 x 5

=/ as in « does not equal »[emoji6]

I cant even imagine the pressure drop across 5 one inch filters ! Thats one I have yet to come across, even on the shittiest setups !

Sorry, justinjoyal! I misread your post. Math still trips me up now and then...



Tommy

 

[JRC3]

So I get a call from a buddy last night because his furnace shuts down and it's giving him code "bla-blah" and another code that it's locked out for 15 minutes. I tell him to cycle the power and of course I tell him to pull the filter, that's when I hear, "holy ****..." Said it been in there for a "few months" (my guess more like 6). He has a wood fireplace, two dogs, and has been remodeling and just finished the drywall in one of his bathrooms. What could go wrong?

 

[nsula_country]

So I get a call from a buddy last night because his furnace shuts down and it's giving him code "bla-blah" and another code that it's locked out for 15 minutes. I tell him to cycle the power and of course I tell him to pull the filter, that's when I hear, "holy ****..." Said it been in there for a "few months" (my guess more like 6). He has a wood fireplace, two dogs, and has been remodeling and just finished the drywall in one of his bathrooms. What could go wrong?

At least he had a filter in place.

Few years ago did a coil and condenser change out in a house that the woman had been remodeling. Living room was the work area and return was off of living room. When I pulled the coil, it was impacted with dog hair, sawdust, drywall dust ect. 100% plugged. No filter. She had no idea she needed one...

I've got a pic somewhere of that coil. It was the worse I had ever seen. Change out was because of compressor failure... Wonder what helped it die!

CT

 

[Jim greengo]

At least he had a filter in place.

Few years ago did a coil and condenser change out in a house that the woman had been remodeling. Living room was the work area and return was off of living room. When I pulled the coil, it was impacted with dog hair, sawdust, drywall dust ect. 100% plugged. No filter. She had no idea she needed one...

I've got a pic somewhere of that coil. It was the worse I had ever seen. Change out was because of compressor failure... Wonder what helped it die!

CT

 

[JerryC]

Had my systems replaced yesterday.
One was ~12 years old (4 ton) and the other was 23 years old (2ton). Before they got loaded for the scrap yard I took a quick look at the blower wheels. They both looked nearly new. No visible dirt accumulation, just not shiny.

I've been using the cheapest pleated filters 99% of the time and change them out every couple of months when I remember. The last couple of summers I started using the best non-pleated filters at the big-box stores to get a little more airflow. They get visibly dirtier faster, i'm guessing from a combination of more airflow and less surface area.

We've always had big dogs and they bring in a lot of dirt. I'd guess that if we were dog-less the filters could go 6 months easy. Both systems use 16x25x1 filters.

 

[nsula_country]

Honestly, I use the non-pleated spun glass filters for most applications. Buy them by the case at HVAC supply house. About $25 for a dozen. Change them 1-2 months.

On our downflow unit I use a 2" thick filter, the rest are all 1" filters. Coils and blowers are clean. Quit using pleated filters several years ago. Anything higher than MERV 8 is a waste IMHO.

CT

 

[Jim greengo]

Stacked filters !

Forums are great, but they are also full of misinformation.

To make it short: dont do that.

The 1st filter is doing the work,the rest are just holding it up in the oversized rack.

 

[Jim greengo]

You think your less restrictive filter is just as good? Because that’s what your implying.

Seems like an easy concept for me to grasp. I’m not lazy or cheap. So I’ll maintain a better air quality and change my merv 11 filters when they need to be changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

When your restrictive merv 11 filter starts plugging up after a couple weeks what does that do to your air flow?
After a couple months how much do you think it's actually flowing?
I change mine every month and have no problems with air flow.
But keep on telling yourself what you want to hear,you spend your money and I'll spend mine.

 

[Jim greengo]

I don't think you understand how filters work.

5 x 1" =/ 1 x 5"

Sure I do,maybe you dont understand basic math. Only the 1st filter is doing the work,getting dirty.
1 pleated filter (merv 2-3) on return side $2.00.
3 spun filters next in line (merv1 each)$1.00 each that dont get dirty because 1st filter does the work.
1 pleated filter on furnace $2.00
Every month pull the pleated filter on return side and chuck it.
Pull the one on furnace side and stick it place if that one.
Now shove a new $2.00 pleated filter on furnace side.

 

[850xpeps]

Sure I do,maybe you dont understand basic math. Only the 1st filter is doing the work,getting dirty.

1 pleated filter (merv 2-3) on return side $2.00.

3 spun filters next in line (merv1 each)$1.00 each that dont get dirty because 1st filter does the work.

1 pleated filter on furnace $2.00

Every month pull the pleated filter on return side and chuck it.

Pull the one on furnace side and stick it place if that one.

Now shove a new $2.00 pleated filter on furnace side.

If my filter plugs much faster it means it’s working. As stupid to you as that may sound I’ll stick with it. I can afford to spend money on things that make sense.

 

[JRC3]

The 1st filter is doing the work,the rest are just holding it up in the oversized rack.

It doesn't work that way. Are you just trolling? Yeah, you trollin'.

 

[McFarmer]

OK, to give those folks who just tuned in the original purpose of the thread:

Check the capacity of the heating/cooling system when you buy a house. Make sure it is sized correctly. I don’t think there could be any argument there. Easy to see the nice new furnace and make assumptions.

Evidently it’s not something a house inspection commonly does.

Carry on.

 

[nsula_country]

Now that your region (Iowa) is getting a break from bitter cold, can heat pump and electric heat maintain now?
CT

 

[checkthisout]

I would think that stacking filters would not serve any good purpose because each filter would create a sequential pressure drop so each downstream filter would see less atmosphere....in others words they would pointlessly restrict flow.

Neighbor up the road has a ground source heat pump. In other words, liquid flows in a pipe in a trench. This liquid is used to cool the condensor rather than having a fan pull atmosphere air across a coil.

This would probably be a good system to use in very cold climates assuming you could get below the frost line.

Yup....

 

[justinjoyal]

Sure I do,maybe you dont understand basic math. Only the 1st filter is doing the work,getting dirty.

1 pleated filter (merv 2-3) on return side $2.00.

3 spun filters next in line (merv1 each)$1.00 each that dont get dirty because 1st filter does the work.

1 pleated filter on furnace $2.00

Every month pull the pleated filter on return side and chuck it.

Pull the one on furnace side and stick it place if that one.

Now shove a new $2.00 pleated filter on furnace side.

So whats the static like with this setup Vs 1 proper filter ?

If only the first filter does the work, why put more in there? Enlight me.

 

[danski0224]

OK, to give those folks who just tuned in the original purpose of the thread:

Check the capacity of the heating/cooling system when you buy a house. Make sure it is sized correctly. I don’t think there could be any argument there. Easy to see the nice new furnace and make assumptions.

Evidently it’s not something a house inspection commonly does.

Carry on.

As far as the HVAC system is concerned, the only thing a home inspector will do is to check operation- weather permitting for stuff like AC.

Well, the second thing is to automatically flag it for gloom and doom problems if it is more than 12 years old.

The home inspector is NOT going to do any load calculations. This is NOT within their scope of work.

The primary scope of work for what is probably most home inspectors is "don't break the deal".

Heck, there are people here on this forum spending 6 figures on a garage build that are too cheap to make sure that the HVAC is sized right- they would rather ask a bunch of random strangers in a different location what/how to do it.

 

[brewchief]

OK, to give those folks who just tuned in the original purpose of the thread:

Check the capacity of the heating/cooling system when you buy a house. Make sure it is sized correctly. I don’t think there could be any argument there. Easy to see the nice new furnace and make assumptions.

Evidently it’s not something a house inspection commonly does.

Carry on.

The lowest design temp I saw in Iowa with a quick look is like -11, if your furnace can maintain temp at that temperature running continuously it would be perfectly sized. In practice most equipment is oversized and will keep up below design temp, even if a perfect heat load calculation is done the size will often end up in the middle of available equipment and the larger size will be used.

Doing a proper heat load calculation is tough on a house that you don't know what is inside the walls or if the doors and windows are really what they appear to be. There are energy audit companies that can do a really good job at this as well as testing air infiltration but the average home inspector won't have the ability and very few HVAC contractors will either.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[850xpeps]

I would think that stacking filters would not serve any good purpose because each filter would create a sequential pressure drop so each downstream filter would see less atmosphere....in others words they would pointlessly restrict flow.

Neighbor up the road has a ground source heat pump. In other words, liquid flows in a pipe in a trench. This liquid is used to cool the condensor rather than having a fan pull atmosphere air across a coil.

This would probably be a good system to use in very cold climates assuming you could get below the frost line.

Yup....

It would be better known as geothermal. Ground loop is one way. More efficient is well to well.

I was on the fence about it but because it’s all clay around me it wouldn’t transfer the energy as well.

You need to use it all year round or it won’t work properly. Need to pull the heat out in winter and put it back in during summer. Usually buried 8 feet down closer to where ground temps stay stable.

 

[danski0224]

Ground source heat pump....

Actual geothermal heat is in Iceland.

 

[McFarmer]

Now that your region (Iowa) is getting a break from bitter cold, can heat pump and electric heat maintain now?
CT

Indeed. She said it shut off during the night. She keeps it low during the day and it struggled to warm the place up.

 

[nsula_country]

Indeed. She said it shut off during the night. She keeps it low during the day and it struggled to warm the place up.

The system is more than likely adequate. Have a tune up and duct leakage inspection when weather gets better. Y'all just had some rough weather come in.

CT

 

[99LeCouch]

Indeed. She said it shut off during the night. She keeps it low during the day and it struggled to warm the place up.

Heat pumps in winter are "set and forget". They do not do large 8 to 10 degree (*F) setbacks like gas furnaces do. Pick a reasonable temperature like 68*F and have it maintained 24/7 during the cold weather. That's more efficient than setting it back and using the heat strips to warm the house up a large amount.

In summer in cooling mode, setting the thermostat back is fine. A heat pump is using less of its capacity in the summer for cooling than in the winter for heating.

Link for more information: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/thermostats